135 replies to this topic

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

Harsh86_Patel, on 07 November 2012 - 07:32 AM, said:

There is no definite physical evidence that Historical Jesus even existed.Your objections can apply to say almost 80% of mainstream history.In most cases historical facts are actually pure hypothesis.Say for example 'The Aryan Invasion/Migration theory' has absolutely nothing to support it,not even circumstantial evidence but is still heralded as a mainstream theory.
Though there is a lot of circumstantial evidence that Christianity is actually a continuation of Sun worship.

But I'm not Christian. On a thread with name like, for instance, "Was Jesus real", then my comment would be very different. I thought on this thread that for sake of brevity to presume he was real, even if I have doubts. By the way, I am convinced Judeo/Christianty has large amounts of Atenism and paganism from that region. And Jesus as Horus, well, he is said to be the "Son of God" and Horus is god, not some mythical Jehovah.

[redhen]

Aus Der Box Skeptisch, on 23 October 2012 - 05:27 AM, said:

Lmao. OK harsh. Live a good life, treat others well, forgive injustices, don't pass judgment on another, I could go on and on why I think religions are similar and why. What it boils down to though is these are answers to guide people in the right direction to live a good fruitful life. In no way does this mean Jesus learned it from somewhere/someone specific.

Exactly. This video is for you.

  

This is the first video in a series. The other ones go off a tangent about conspiracies, new world order, etc. I'm sure it would interest some UM readers, but it's the first video narrated by S.N. Goenka, a teacher of vipassana (insight) meditation that I think is the most useful.

This simple teaching is actually not part of any Buddhist scripture, it's from the Dhammapada, a collection of alleged sayings of the Buddha. Nonetheless, it is held in high regard.

Pai Chu-yi (772-846) was one of China's greatest poets and a devout Buddhist. Once when he visited a monastery he asked the abbot to tell him the most essential teaching of Buddhism. The abbot then recited the lines from the Dhammapada; "Commit no wrongs, perform good deeds, and let your thoughts be pure. Thus do all Buddhas teach.". This failed to impress the greatest poet of the age, who said "Every child of three summers knows these lines. I want to know the most profound teaching of the Buddha". The abbot replied "Every child of three summers knows these lines, but white-haired men of eighty still fail to put them in practice". Hearing this, the poet bowed low and returned home deep in thought"

- paraphrased from the Platform Sutra - the Zen teaching of Hui-Neng, by Bill Porter

Edited by redhen, 07 November 2012 - 11:39 PM.

[Harsh86_Patel]

Atentutankh-pasheri, on 07 November 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

But I'm not Christian. On a thread with name like, for instance, "Was Jesus real", then my comment would be very different. I thought on this thread that for sake of brevity to presume he was real, even if I have doubts. By the way, I am convinced Judeo/Christianty has large amounts of Atenism and paganism from that region. And Jesus as Horus, well, he is said to be the "Son of God" and Horus is god, not some mythical Jehovah.

I never insinuated that you are a Christian,all i was trying to point out is that most of mainstream history is not based on physical or even first/second source evidence.
Do you know that Horus can very well also be pronounced as 'Haris' since the egyptologists are only sure of the consonants and not the Vowels in Egyptian heiroglyphics. 'Haris'/''Hari ' in Sanskrit means God/Son of God/Avataar of God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hari

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

Harsh86_Patel, on 08 November 2012 - 05:26 AM, said:

I never insinuated that you are a Christian,all i was trying to point out is that most of mainstream history is not based on physical or even first/second source evidence.
Do you know that Horus can very well also be pronounced as 'Haris' since the egyptologists are only sure of the consonants and not the Vowels in Egyptian heiroglyphics. 'Haris'/''Hari ' in Sanskrit means God/Son of God/Avataar of God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hari

And what is interesting in that wiki article are the other connections with Hari. Horse, steed and sun, which seem to connect to Russian god Хорс - Hors or Khors it can be pronounced in English. Though I have linked Hors to Horus, it is done for very specific and non rational reasons...... I think to link two Indo-European gods with similar attributes is entirely possible as both probably have same origins, though to join Horus with them may be difficult as he seems very specific to certain parts of Egypt in his origins, and has no connection with horses. Too me, a horse culture is a defining attribute of Indo-European peoples from that far back in time, and Egypt had no horse culture until the Hyksos invaded. Of course, it is possible that Hari/Hors/Horus are so old that they predate any horse culture, and are then linked by their skygod/sungod/son of god attributes and have a single origin somewhere in Eurasia.......

[kmt_sesh]

Harsh86_Patel, on 08 November 2012 - 05:26 AM, said:

I never insinuated that you are a Christian,all i was trying to point out is that most of mainstream history is not based on physical or even first/second source evidence.
Do you know that Horus can very well also be pronounced as 'Haris' since the egyptologists are only sure of the consonants and not the Vowels in Egyptian heiroglyphics. 'Haris'/''Hari ' in Sanskrit means God/Son of God/Avataar of God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hari

Horus could not be pronounced that way. To the Egyptians there wasn't even an "S" in the name—"Horus" is the Greek corruption of the original. At best the sounds in the name of this ancient god are preserved as Hr as well as Hrw. The rendering "Hori" comes from the Egyptian Hri as a proper noun (that is, as a name). It was a common theophoric male name derived from the god, but Horus himself was not called "Hori."

None of the vowel sounds are preserved in these examples. The "O" in "Hori" is a relatively modern convention to help flesh out the name for a more natural sound.

[Harsh86_Patel]

kmt_sesh, on 10 November 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:

Horus could not be pronounced that way. To the Egyptians there wasn't even an "S" in the name—"Horus" is the Greek corruption of the original. At best the sounds in the name of this ancient god are preserved as Hr as well as Hrw. The rendering "Hori" comes from the Egyptian Hri as a proper noun (that is, as a name). It was a common theophoric male name derived from the god, but Horus himself was not called "Hori."

None of the vowel sounds are preserved in these examples. The "O" in "Hori" is a relatively modern convention to help flesh out the name for a more natural sound.

Hr --- Hri ----- Hari
Thats makes the case even stronger.
What makes you feel that the 'A' instead of the 'O' doesn't give 'Hr' (i.e horus) a more natural sound?.
Never said Horus was called Hori but am suggesting it was never Horus but in all Probabilities it was 'Hari'.

[Harsh86_Patel]

Atentutankh-pasheri, on 08 November 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

And what is interesting in that wiki article are the other connections with Hari. Horse, steed and sun, which seem to connect to Russian god Хорс - Hors or Khors it can be pronounced in English. Though I have linked Hors to Horus, it is done for very specific and non rational reasons...... I think to link two Indo-European gods with similar attributes is entirely possible as both probably have same origins, though to join Horus with them may be difficult as he seems very specific to certain parts of Egypt in his origins, and has no connection with horses. Too me, a horse culture is a defining attribute of Indo-European peoples from that far back in time, and Egypt had no horse culture until the Hyksos invaded. Of course, it is possible that Hari/Hors/Horus are so old that they predate any horse culture, and are then linked by their skygod/sungod/son of god attributes and have a single origin somewhere in Eurasia.......

I don't quite understand how we have reached horses but ya but there is a lot of connection between the ancient russian greek and indian gods.

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

Harsh86_Patel, on 12 November 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:

I don't quite understand how we have reached horses but ya but there is a lot of connection between the ancient russian greek and indian gods.

Connection to Horse because the name of the Slavic god Хорс is from the same roots that give the name hors, horsa and horse, and there are other variants in other Indo-European languages. Ancient Slavs saw Хорс as a sky god and god of the solar disk, and that he travels daily, in the form of a white horse, which can also be the Sun, from East to West. In some of his godly attributes, though not origin story, Slavic Хорс and Egyptian Ra-Horakhty are not so far apart. If you wish to use the google translator then this is laid out here.
http://slaviy.ru/sla...skie-bogi/xors/

[kmt_sesh]

Harsh86_Patel, on 12 November 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

Hr --- Hri ----- Hari
Thats makes the case even stronger.
What makes you feel that the 'A' instead of the 'O' doesn't give 'Hr' (i.e horus) a more natural sound?.
Never said Horus was called Hori but am suggesting it was never Horus but in all Probabilities it was 'Hari'.

I misspoke in my last post. More than likely the "O" in the rendering is itself not relatively modern, but comes from the Greek corruption "Horus." The "O" was already there in the Greek version, so it was preserved in the Egyptological rendering of the personal name "Hori."

In representing Egyptian words in their own language, it's possible the Greeks tried to preserve something of the original sounds, but this is not at all certain. After all, they drew "Thoth" from the Egyptian name Djehuty (DHwti), which is not even close.

The point is, we can't know with certainty exactly how the Egyptians pronounced the name of the falcon deity. The vowels are permanently lost to us. The name of the god was not spelled Hri, I have to stress again, but was the personal name of many males. So drop the "i" from the end of the name in so far as the god Horus is concerned—his own name did not carry that terminating sound. The same is seen in other theophoric names such as Seti. The "i" at the end of such names is a suffix pronoun acting as a descriptor and basically means "one of." Hence, the name Hori would mean "One of Horus" and Seti "One of Seti." It expresses a person's personal devotion to a deity.

I'll say it again. Basically we have two common versions in the original ancient Egyptian for the name of the god Horus: Hr and Hrw. That's it. We cannot know whether a vowel preceded the "H" or followed the "H," et cetera. Strictly speaking, without embellishments, we would pronounce these two names as "Her" and "Heroo."

You yourself could write the god's name as "Hari," but that would be your own artifice. There's no way to demonstrate that the name of deity himself sounded like this, aside from the fact that it didn't carry an "i" at the end. I should also point out that the use of the Western character "i" does not denote a vowel but a weak consonant.

I'm aware you're trying to tie Horus into ancient Hindu cultures, Harsh, but I don't see how such is possible. This was an exclusively Egyptian deity "born and raised" in the Nile Valley, and his origins are fixed in prehistory—long before the emergence of Hinduism.

[Parsec]

I agree with you kmt_sesh, expecially on Horus origins.

I have a question: in your post, you say

kmt_sesh, on 12 November 2012 - 11:00 PM, said:

[...] The same is seen in other theophoric names such as Seti. The "i" at the end of such names is a suffix pronoun acting as a descriptor and basically means "one of." Hence, the name Hori would mean "One of Horus" and Seti "One of Seti." It expresses a person's personal devotion to a deity.
[...]

So, following your reasoning, Seti shouldn't be "One of Set(h)", instead of "One of Seti"?

[kmt_sesh]

Parsec, on 13 November 2012 - 12:04 AM, said:

I agree with you kmt_sesh, expecially on Horus origins.

I have a question: in your post, you say


So, following your reasoning, Seti shouldn't be "One of Set(h)", instead of "One of Seti"?

Oops. You're right, Parsec. Thanks for pointing that out. It means "One of Set."

[Harsh86_Patel]

kmt_sesh, on 12 November 2012 - 11:00 PM, said:

I misspoke in my last post. More than likely the "O" in the rendering is itself not relatively modern, but comes from the Greek corruption "Horus." The "O" was already there in the Greek version, so it was preserved in the Egyptological rendering of the personal name "Hori."

In representing Egyptian words in their own language, it's possible the Greeks tried to preserve something of the original sounds, but this is not at all certain. After all, they drew "Thoth" from the Egyptian name Djehuty (DHwti), which is not even close.

The point is, we can't know with certainty exactly how the Egyptians pronounced the name of the falcon deity. The vowels are permanently lost to us. The name of the god was not spelled Hri, I have to stress again, but was the personal name of many males. So drop the "i" from the end of the name in so far as the god Horus is concerned—his own name did not carry that terminating sound. The same is seen in other theophoric names such as Seti. The "i" at the end of such names is a suffix pronoun acting as a descriptor and basically means "one of." Hence, the name Hori would mean "One of Horus" and Seti "One of Seti." It expresses a person's personal devotion to a deity.

I'll say it again. Basically we have two common versions in the original ancient Egyptian for the name of the god Horus: Hr and Hrw. That's it. We cannot know whether a vowel preceded the "H" or followed the "H," et cetera. Strictly speaking, without embellishments, we would pronounce these two names as "Her" and "Heroo."

You yourself could write the god's name as "Hari," but that would be your own artifice. There's no way to demonstrate that the name of deity himself sounded like this, aside from the fact that it didn't carry an "i" at the end. I should also point out that the use of the Western character "i" does not denote a vowel but a weak consonant.

I'm aware you're trying to tie Horus into ancient Hindu cultures, Harsh, but I don't see how such is possible. This was an exclusively Egyptian deity "born and raised" in the Nile Valley, and his origins are fixed in prehistory—long before the emergence of Hinduism.

Am saying that Horus/Hari/Har maybe a native God to Egypt but the naming and other cultural symbols associated with him maybe having Vedic influence.Maybe a migration from the Indo Saraswat region or the IVC region to egypt may have caused the introduction of Horus/Hari/Har to egypt.Krishna(also an avataar of Vishnu and often known or called hari/hare/har) who also grew up to fight his evil Uncle 'Kansa' to avenge the cruelties committed on his parents does show similarity to the Horus/Seth relationship.
I don't know how you state that Horus was a deity that predates Hinduism or the Vedic culture,on what basis do you say this.Unlike other religions Hinduism was not launched on the people,it was a over the time assimilation of various inputs and insights from the Rsi's/Sages etc.and the mythology was also additions over long periods of time,so there is no possibility of putting a date tag on Hinduism which may very well have started pre 6000 B.C..Due to this pecularity of Hinduism it is more correctly refered to as 'Sanatana Dharma' i.e Eternal religion/philosphy since Hinduism evolved with inputs throughout a long time span and there is still scope to add to the religion/culture even today hence making the religion/culture very contemporary marked by a lesser crisis of faith while acknowledging modern scientific facts.
'Hari' is again a common hindu name comparable to the egyptian context of the name.Also a varaint of hari is often used in hindu practices i.e 'Hare Krishna,hare Rama' etc (variant='Hare' pronounced='h-rey') also in the case of 'Har Har Mahadev' (variant='har' pronounced ='her')
There are lot of comparitive religion articles that highlight the similarities between Mithra/Krishna/Horus/Christ.

[kmt_sesh]

Harsh86_Patel, on 16 November 2012 - 07:03 AM, said:

Am saying that Horus/Hari/Har maybe a native God to Egypt but the naming and other cultural symbols associated with him maybe having Vedic influence.Maybe a migration from the Indo Saraswat region or the IVC region to egypt may have caused the introduction of Horus/Hari/Har to egypt.Krishna(also an avataar of Vishnu and often known or called hari/hare/har) who also grew up to fight his evil Uncle 'Kansa' to avenge the cruelties committed on his parents does show similarity to the Horus/Seth relationship.
I don't know how you state that Horus was a deity that predates Hinduism or the Vedic culture,on what basis do you say this.Unlike other religions Hinduism was not launched on the people,it was a over the time assimilation of various inputs and insights from the Rsi's/Sages etc.and the mythology was also additions over long periods of time,so there is no possibility of putting a date tag on Hinduism which may very well have started pre 6000 B.C..Due to this pecularity of Hinduism it is more correctly refered to as 'Sanatana Dharma' i.e Eternal religion/philosphy since Hinduism evolved with inputs throughout a long time span and there is still scope to add to the religion/culture even today hence making the religion/culture very contemporary marked by a lesser crisis of faith while acknowledging modern scientific facts.
'Hari' is again a common hindu name comparable to the egyptian context of the name.Also a varaint of hari is often used in hindu practices i.e 'Hare Krishna,hare Rama' etc (variant='Hare' pronounced='h-rey') also in the case of 'Har Har Mahadev' (variant='har' pronounced ='her')
There are lot of comparitive religion articles that highlight the similarities between Mithra/Krishna/Horus/Christ.

How you describe the onset of Hinduism is basically the same description for nearly all ancient religions. Practically all of them were organic in development. Religions don't automatically pop up to be forced on others—with the exception of more modern examples. But as with all of these ancient religions, Hinduism included, they were also used as tools by the developing state and authority to help bolster and maintain the power of central authority. That also can be thought of as organic, in so far as how civilizations came to be in the ancient world.

We've been through a lot of this before, but your nationalistic fervor does not stand equal to real historical research. We cannot look at truly ancient Indic city-states like Mohenjo-daro and Harappa and identify them as "Vedic." There is simply no evidence to support such a claim. You're basically turning to your evident nationalist fervor to try to make India the root of everything, and it simply is not. It is the root of India, certainly, but we need to keep this in perspective. The earliest origins of the Vedic period are not clear but philological studies point to an origin of about 1700 BCE—when the Rigveda was perhaps composed. This is the oldest of the Vedic corpus, is it not?

If we look at just the Rigveda as the beginning of Vedic culture, we then place it around the eighteenth century BCE. Egypt had already been a functioning kingdom for some 1,400 years by this point, the evidence for which is unequivocal. There is no real evidence for interaction between Egypt and India till the Ptolemaic Period, beginning 332 BCE, so trying to suggest that Horus as an Egyptian deity might have Vedic influences is nonsensical. As it is, although the kingdom of Egypt was established in the late fourth millennium BCE, iconography for Horus is recognizable for some centuries prior to that.

Understand, Harsh, I do not wish to sound like I'm trying to demean Hinduism or Vedic culture in any way. That's not my intent. I am only drawing from strictly secular, peer-reviewd research about the origins of ancient civilizations in that part of the world. My motivations for this extend nowhere beyond that. I am interested in history as it is known and understood from real-world, extant evidence. Nationalistic fervor doesn't interest me. Hell, I'm a pasty white American whose chief research interest is ancient Egypt, so that much should be obvious.

[CuriousGreek]

I have spent many hours on this subject. I won't tire you very much by posting all of the sources, i've studied, but i'll get straight to the point. What i've learned so far is that the region, in which Jesus Christ was born, was inhabited by many Greeks. Greeks were settled in that area and it's being said that Virgin Mary was of Greek origin and so was Joseph. I've also have heard that Jesus Himself tended to study and learn, when He was a child, about the Greek philosophy and everything, that Greeks had taught. If you go and take a look at the Meteora Monastery (you could as well search about it on the web), being in Greece, you will find many Greek philosophers' icons along with the Orthodox Saints' icons. That must put all of us in thoughts about what teachings Jesus had received, when He was a child. I don't want to seem arrogant implying, that Jesus Christ was certainly Greek and that His teachings contain the ancient greek philosophy at least in a certain extent. I am just saying, that there are things we do not know, and maybe we'll never know. But research is sure to make us more wise and broaden our horizons. If you wanna learn more about this issue, just drop me a message. I'd be happy to talk to you, guys!

Edited by CuriousGreek, 19 November 2012 - 01:17 AM.

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

CuriousGreek, on 19 November 2012 - 01:16 AM, said:

I've also have heard that Jesus Himself tended to study and learn, when He was a child, about the Greek philosophy and everything, that Greeks had taught.

Which seems reasonable and would fit with theory that "lost" years were in Alexandria. It seems to me that though we are told he was Jew, his words seem something very different. Though there wil be dispute about what he learnt in Alexandria, if he was there, because I think he should be seen as a human manifestation of Horus, and I think you will disagree with that.....