1582 replies to this topic

[Peter Cox]

Can I ask you a question Kampz...

How can you prove atlantis was not a brain child of Plato? a second question: If it was a real place and was so big and advanced, why is there no proof anywhere that it exsisted (outside of plato?) a thirst question: If such a great land was sunk, hit by tusanmi or hurricane, why does in not show on any scan of the area?

Here is what we can PROVE about Atlantis - NOTHING other than its a story told by plato. Its been found 100 times but 10 000 people, crete, the Azors, india, china, south america, africa, spain and the antartic are all supposed places where Atlantis was. So with so much speculation everyone is squered by the fact that there are no FACTS around Atlantis other than the wroitings of an old man treying to get a point across. Much like the parables in the bible - or you would have us believe a man was eaten by a whale and lived inside of it for a long time before being throwen up out of the whale?

Thats just my 2c worth.

[kampz]

I'm using Platos account loosely. I can't prove anyones account. Why continue telling stories similar after Plato? I don't know. I think his story is bogus. I'm trying something resembling "Atlantis".

I didn't say it was big and advanced. I'm trying something that resembles pirate culture/nation. Democracy vs Barbarianism.

I don't even have an island yet. I'm looking at areas.

I don't think Atlantis exist even. I'm trying to figure out something like it so there's a reason why people talked about it in the first place. I can accept what Cormac wrote if I never can. I'm not going to spend a lot of time either. That's just me.

Edited by kampz, 12 December 2012 - 10:51 AM.

[Peter Cox]

And that is fair enought from you perspective, and I wish you all the best in figuring it all out.

Let me give you some food for thought, who is to say Atlantis was not the world before the great flood? (thats if you believe in the biblical account of Noah)

Who is to say its not the sunken city in Spain?

My point is merly that drawing any conclusion based on a place that cannot be proved to exsist is in itself going to be very very hard.

and please Im not suggesting either of the above is atlantis at all however it cant be proven nor 100% disproven. its all a matter of perception and opinion until definitive proof is supplied.

I can see the link you are drawing from culture to civilization, or political vr culture. Its all about methodology i suppose.

Good luck in your quest.

[docyabut2]

qoute-It's quite possible Athens never reached an army of that size. We know when Darius I sent an invasion force to Greece in 490 BCE, Athens could field only around 9,000 men (they were joined by a small force of 1,000 Platean soldiers). I suppose it might have been possible during the early years of the Peloponnesian War, when around 200,000 people might have been living in Athens before the plague reduced it's population by around a quarter. But that's not a certainty, and the number would've included mercenaries in the Athenian army.

All of this is to say, in his dialogs Plato was presenting Athens as a great and influential power from very ancient times, which we know was not the case. Plato probably could not have known that, of course.



(The legend tell us, that all the men of Athens voted for the gift of Poseidon and all the women, for the gift of Athena and because there was one woman more than the men, goddess Athena was selected and from her, the city took her name.
To defend the country from the Karian pirates from the sea and the Boeotians from the land, Kekrops, in order to manage better the population, distributed Attica in the following twelve sections: Aphidna, Brauron, Dekeleia, Epakria, Eleusis, Kekropia, Kephisius, Kytherus, Phalerus, Sphettus, Tetrapolis, Thorikus. He also ordered each man to cast a single stone and by counting the stones, it was found that they were twenty thousand inhabitants.


http://www.sikyon.co...ahist_eg01.html


This is how they dwelt, being the guardians of their own citizens and the leaders of the Hellenes, who were their willing followers. And they took care to preserve the same number of men and women through all time, being so many as were required for warlike purposes, then as now-that is to say, about twenty thousand.

Critias)

Edited by docyabut2, 12 December 2012 - 12:14 PM.

[Hartmut]

         

Like all Myth and Legends, Atlantis has and will be argued and speculated over forever by serious researchers and cranks .

As I see it, and that too is merely an (so far) unprovable opinion, there is only one place that could possibly fit into the legend with some degree of having been Atlantis in reality :  The Minoan Empire !

No other Empire at the time was more advanced, more cultured, nor as powerful, yet totally  peaceful,  than the Minoans.
This exceptional Minoan civilization collapsed completely  after the enormous and devastating volcanic explosion
of Thera (Santorini).

No other place or people fit time-wise and historically into the framework and description of what Atlantis was like,
as much or as close than the Minoan Empire.

And just like it has now been scientifically proven that the pyramids were not built by  slaves (or aliens),
but by Egyptians,  we can only hope that Atlantis too may one day have its existence and origin
proven beyond any doubt.

[docyabut2]

The tale of Atlantis and of the war of Athens points to Cecrops1( Kekrops)- 1582




http://www.forumanci...Chronology.html

Edited by docyabut2, 12 December 2012 - 01:35 PM.

[Harte]

kampz, on 12 December 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

I'm using Platos account loosely. I can't prove anyones account. Why continue telling stories similar after Plato? I don't know.

There are no other stories about Atlantis except for later on people commenting on what Plato said.

There exist no stories about Atlantis earlier than Plato either.

Plato's claim that Solon got the story from Egypt is belied by the fact that no myth even remotely similar has been found to exist in Ancient Egypt.

Plato's story is the only story of Atlantis.  If you leave Plato behind, you've left Atlantis behind as well.

Harte

[kampz]

Thanks for all the replies and information everyone.

[docyabut2]

There are clear references in Plato`s account to the Kings of Athens, Cecrops`s dynasty 1582 bc and their numbers of their inhabitants ,who fought in this war with Atlantis. Atlantis had to have been the Minoan empire and there is the evidence of a eruption that destroyed Thera (Atlantis) around that time.

At Tell el Dab'a in Egypt, pumice found at this location has been dated to 1540 BCE, closer to the traditionally accepted date of Thera's eruption

Edited by docyabut2, 13 December 2012 - 10:56 AM.

[Peter Cox]

Hartmut, on 12 December 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

     

Like all Myth and Legends, Atlantis has and will be argued and speculated over forever by serious researchers and cranks .

As I see it, and that too is merely an (so far) unprovable opinion, there is only one place that could possibly fit into the legend with some degree of having been Atlantis in reality :  The Minoan Empire !

No other Empire at the time was more advanced, more cultured, nor as powerful, yet totally  peaceful,  than the Minoans.
This exceptional Minoan civilization collapsed completely  after the enormous and devastating volcanic explosion
of Thera (Santorini).

No other place or people fit time-wise and historically into the framework and description of what Atlantis was like,
as much or as close than the Minoan Empire.

And just like it has now been scientifically proven that the pyramids were not built by  slaves (or aliens),
but by Egyptians,  we can only hope that Atlantis too may one day have its existence and origin
proven beyond any doubt.

I have to agree with you on this, Atlantis is if anything at all is a fable of the Minoan Empire.

It makes the most sense to base it on that than anythign else that I can think of (prehaps for the South America theory)

However again Plato's was telling a story and may have made the entire thing up. So to speculate on a story is at best just a researched opinion. But if you had to pin point it to anything I would say you are right. It could be nothing and yet may be something.

[docyabut2]

Agree harmut, I defended  the lost city of Tartesso as Atlantis  for years because of the phase in Critius`s Atlantis   And the name of his younger twin-brother, who had for his portion the extremity of the island near the pillars of Herakles up to the part of the country now called Gadeira after the name of that region, was Eumelos in Greek, but in the native tongue Gadeiros,--which fact may have given its title to the country which would put it at Cadiz, but then theres the country call Melos near Thera in the Agean.



http://0.tqn.com/d/a...pherd-c-004.jpg

[ISAEYEALLSEEING]

Peter Cox, on 13 December 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

I have to agree with you on this, Atlantis is if anything at all is a fable of the Minoan Empire.

It makes the most sense to base it on that than anythign else that I can think of (prehaps for the South America theory)

However again Plato's was telling a story and may have made the entire thing up. So to speculate on a story is at best just a researched opinion. But if you had to pin point it to anything I would say you are right. It could be nothing and yet may be something.

Hi have you reasd this topic from the beginning ?

[Peter Cox]

For the most part yes. But i must admit I have missed several posts and comment on seleceted posts.

Why is there something critical I am missing?

[ISAEYEALLSEEING]

Peter Cox, on 22 February 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

For the most part yes. But i must admit I have missed several posts and comment on seleceted posts.

Why is there something critical I am missing?

I DONT THINK SO IN THAT CASE i JUST FIND SOME OF YOUR COMMENTS REALLY INTERESTING

[Silver Surfer]

the links are all dead... i'd be interested in a read of this ...