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The True Meaning of Life


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#196    Sherapy

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 04:19 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 09 March 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

How does an individaul verify the physiccal and independet existence of a rose when they encounter it? Eg if you touch it and you bleed or get satins on your fingers or you smell its scent it is probably objectively existent.

Well, an inidvidual MUST use the same physical forms of verification to confirm the physical existence of an angel or god or a ghost or anything. Otherwise they cannot claim to have encountered a physical manifestion of such an entity but only a subjective inner experirnce.

We do not normally have subjective inner experinces of cats and dogs. Why assume an angel or a god is any less real  than the individual dogs and cats we encounter in life? Use the SAME processes and evidences to verify them ALL. Dont just assume.

Of course a rose requires verification of its existence.  Imagine putting a beatufil roes on your dinner table and  telling others how beautiful it was only  to have them reply "What rose?"

Techniclly it could just as easliy be an hallucination to an individual as an angel. My mother in law  regularly hallucinated ocean liners sailing past our front gate in great detail. My grand mother hallucinated rabbits running  around the ceiling.

Hallucinations come in all shapes and forms  Life requires constant reality checking to ensure  the objective existence of walls, food, motor cars, etc. That is "why" we evolved touch sight and other senses  to interact physically with the things around us all. They establish, clearly and effectively, what has objective existence and what does not, unless we are in some way dysfunctional..

Perception is a construct MW. It is internal and a product of your beliefs. What ever comes in via your senses is modified and altered according to your world view, it does not make sense to argue that our senses are reliable, they are not. They are spun/filtered to fit our internal reality. Your perception is not reliable anymore then mine is therefore-- it cannot be used as evidence for external reality.

Edited by Sherapy, 11 March 2013 - 04:20 PM.




#197    Mr Walker

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 11:32 PM

View PostSherapy, on 11 March 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

Perception is a construct MW. It is internal and a product of your beliefs. What ever comes in via your senses is modified and altered according to your world view, it does not make sense to argue that our senses are reliable, they are not. They are spun/filtered to fit our internal reality. Your perception is not reliable anymore then mine is therefore-- it cannot be used as evidence for external reality.

This is incorrect.

Our eyes see what is there. Our fingers touch what is physical. Other wise a wall would not stop us and we could not sit down on a chair
Are you suggesting that, given the fact that a chair only exists in my perception, I should not sit down on it? My senses are perfectly reliable in regard to connecting with the external environment around me. What my mind makes of that reality depends on its health, education, experience and skills.

For example transport me 200 years into the future. I enter a room with no furniture but many beautiful blue holographic appearing constructs. I walk over to one and touch it. It feels solid, so i sit on it and it holds me perfectly Turns out it is an energy field construct which 100 years ago replaced physical furniture.

Take me back 2000 years and I would have to rely on my historical knowedge  and high school latin. to live safely and to interact effectively with my environment. So our minds help us interpret and make sense of, as well  as best utilise, the physical reality around us.
The real problem here is that every one accepts the physical reality of a chair via experiential knolwedge, but not everyone accepts the physical reality of an angel or of god. One must apply the same senses, the same evidences, and the same logic in ones encounter with ALL external  realities, and not allow ones beliefs or preconceptions to colour what one senses. My mother taught me that as a pre schooler. and my further education, including university psychology, only confirmed its importance.

So, our SENSES are almost entirely reliable or we could not survive. Our MIND may play all sorts of tricks on us , but a mind is teachable/ disciplinable and capable of learning how to make sense of its surroundings, using experience, data, scientific thought and logic.

It is NOT true or inevitable that a human mind is always decieved or prey to its biases and preconceptions. If it is deceived it is /must be, "complicit" in deceiving itself. And it can be trained out of that complicity, to recognise the input of physical receptors like eyes and skin  very accurately. It can also be trained to modify the inputs of all those receptors for constructive purpose eg to stop feeling pain  or hunger, or to regulate body temperature, breathing and pulse rate and other biological aspects of our physiology.

Edited by Mr Walker, 11 March 2013 - 11:48 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#198    Frank Merton

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 12:57 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 11 March 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

This is incorrect.

Our eyes see what is there. Our fingers touch what is physical. Other wise a wall would not stop us and we could not sit down on a chair
Ah but it is correct; you are participating in a massive illusion.  That you "see" and what you "feel" and so on are all "qualia" (look it up) that occur entirely in your brain.  They are illusions, not delusions, meaning that there is something in the outside world that stimulates it, but your brain is where it happens.  That chair is really just a mass of atoms, and the "hardness" your brain tells you keeps you off the floor is really just the repulsion of the electrons on the surface of the chair and the electrons on the surface of your butt.

Things like color and odor and pitch and feel (and even internal things like pain and nausea), as well as emotions, are all illusions.  There are no such things "out there" in the physical world.  They are entirly in our heads.

Edited by Frank Merton, 12 March 2013 - 12:58 AM.


#199    Mr Walker

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 09:41 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 12 March 2013 - 12:57 AM, said:

Ah but it is correct; you are participating in a massive illusion.  That you "see" and what you "feel" and so on are all "qualia" (look it up) that occur entirely in your brain.  They are illusions, not delusions, meaning that there is something in the outside world that stimulates it, but your brain is where it happens.  That chair is really just a mass of atoms, and the "hardness" your brain tells you keeps you off the floor is really just the repulsion of the electrons on the surface of the chair and the electrons on the surface of your butt.

Things like color and odor and pitch and feel (and even internal things like pain and nausea), as well as emotions, are all illusions.  There are no such things "out there" in the physical world.  They are entirly in our heads.
No this is descartian rubbish.The real world is there. It is what we evolved from, and within, and so we  are adapted to sense it and respond/ connect to it. ANd our senses, detect the physicality of that world because they are adapted to it just as any oraganism's senses are adapted to  detect its surrounding physical environment, so that a flower opens in the morning as the sun hits it, and closes at night as the sun sets.

It is our mind which adds layers and confuses us. Watch a wolf. It has no human sense of perception to cloud its sensory inputs. It is not confused about objective and subjective states. It merges, and interacts,  with the rest of its environment. Watch a snow flake fall and stop when it hits the ground. Watch it melt. It responds to the physical realites of the environment around it. These things would happen if humans had never evolved. Our minds are irrelevant to the nature of reality except in how they help us adjust to it To believe otherwise is akin to a creationist form of belief which denies all observed reality and accumulated knowledge.

A chair is a mass of atoms (or  in the future an energy field) to which EVERY human bottom and mind reacts in the same way. I can recognise a chair from a picture, or from a real article, or from its function "in the field" , and i can extrapolate or reverse engineer chairs from the past or the distant future.  I can sit on a chair made 300 years ago and a person in the future can sit on a chair I make today.  If these things were illusons or delusions this would not be possible. Perhaps other words would be better i understand wha toyu are saying but not only is it irrelevant it is a dead end For us all that is important is our interaction with the universe around us and how we can do this most beneficially and effectively, maximising both of these.   So in all practical and useful senses the world around us is physical and indpenedent of our senses and perceptions. Our senses allow us to recognise this reality surrounding us and our perceptions to best utilise it. Eg to make a softer and more comfortable bed.

Everything real and physical exists outside our mind and is not dependent on our mind for it existence, or for its form and function. It would remain exactly the same if every human disappeared form the universe in one instant of time, but our mind is capapble of creating constructs and symbolic meanings which have only an internal reality. Even these things like love and hate or altruism can be physically manifested through us into the physical world, but they (the constructs and symbolisms) would physically disappear if every human was removed from existence. because they exist only within us.
Ps qualia is more of a philosophic construct than a scientific one and its very existence is problematical I am not sure thas a qualia can even be properly applied to something as solid as a rock And  the theory of qualia presupposes that human consciousness is entirely subjective which modern neurology and theories of cognitive devlopment do not  support.

In Consciousness Explained (1991) and "Quining Qualia" (1988),[14] Daniel Dennett offers an argument against qualia that attempts to show that the above definition breaks down when one tries to make a practical application of it. In a series of thought experiments, which he calls "intuition pumps," he brings qualia into the world of neurosurgery, clinical psychology, and psychological experimentation. His argument attempts to show that, once the concept of qualia is so imported, it turns out that we can either make no use of it in the situation in question, or that the questions posed by the introduction of qualia are unanswerable precisely because of the special properties defined for qualia.


And basically that is my pov An interesting philosophical theory, but a dead end in practical reality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia

Edited by Mr Walker, 12 March 2013 - 09:53 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#200    Sherapy

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 06:34 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 11 March 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

This is incorrect.

Our eyes see what is there. Our fingers touch what is physical. Other wise a wall would not stop us and we could not sit down on a chair
Are you suggesting that, given the fact that a chair only exists in my perception, I should not sit down on it? My senses are perfectly reliable in regard to connecting with the external environment around me. What my mind makes of that reality depends on its health, education, experience and skills.

For example transport me 200 years into the future. I enter a room with no furniture but many beautiful blue holographic appearing constructs. I walk over to one and touch it. It feels solid, so i sit on it and it holds me perfectly Turns out it is an energy field construct which 100 years ago replaced physical furniture.

Take me back 2000 years and I would have to rely on my historical knowedge  and high school latin. to live safely and to interact effectively with my environment. So our minds help us interpret and make sense of, as well  as best utilise, the physical reality around us.
The real problem here is that every one accepts the physical reality of a chair via experiential knolwedge, but not everyone accepts the physical reality of an angel or of god. One must apply the same senses, the same evidences, and the same logic in ones encounter with ALL external  realities, and not allow ones beliefs or preconceptions to colour what one senses. My mother taught me that as a pre schooler. and my further education, including university psychology, only confirmed its importance.

So, our SENSES are almost entirely reliable or we could not survive. Our MIND may play all sorts of tricks on us , but a mind is teachable/ disciplinable and capable of learning how to make sense of its surroundings, using experience, data, scientific thought and logic.

It is NOT true or inevitable that a human mind is always decieved or prey to its biases and preconceptions. If it is deceived it is /must be, "complicit" in deceiving itself. And it can be trained out of that complicity, to recognise the input of physical receptors like eyes and skin  very accurately. It can also be trained to modify the inputs of all those receptors for constructive purpose eg to stop feeling pain  or hunger, or to regulate body temperature, breathing and pulse rate and other biological aspects of our physiology.

No, MW, I am not only arguing that a chair exists only in 'your' internal reality, I am arguing that it exists objectively too; therefore, making your senses more reliable in the case of sitting in a chair.

Where your sense perception fails  for me is using  your own internal subjective reality as the only way to verify objective reality. Namely, your angel construct. Basically, I wish we could use your internal schema but we just cannot verify your angel pal objectively using your internal subjective reality. There is no way for us to do so.

Other then to take your word as evidence and on one hand I do think it is highly likely that you have constructed a world view that includes angels. On that note-- I think, 'you think' you have an angel friend. I am fine with that --where it gets sticky for me  is when you insist your perception is the only correct/possible one; therefore, can substitute as objective  evidence for me. Where it is possible to think you have an angel-- it is not likely objectively because we would all be able to verify the evidence of angels, like we can with a chair.

You are so close to getting this, you are literally 9 toes in.

Edited by Sherapy, 12 March 2013 - 06:36 PM.




#201    Mr. Miyagi

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 07:39 PM

It's pretty simple. The true meaning of life is to live. Life is much less of a struggle for many people today given modern conviences and so many have the time to contemplate such a question. As we've evolved over time we've had more and more time to over analyze and complicate the matter. However when our life is threatened, in that moment, it becomes pretty clear what the meaning of life is. It's basic, it's simple and it's primal. To live. How you go about living is up to you. How you live your life and so on and so forth, but all of that can become irrelevant in an instant and you're left with the true meaning of life. God/s, heaven, hell, enlightenment, nirvana, etc... Afterlife... Irrelevent. The true meaning of life is to live in my opinion

Thanks for reading..


#202    third_eye

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 09:19 PM

View PostMr. Miyagi, on 12 March 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

It's pretty simple. The true meaning of life is to live. Life is much less of a struggle for many people today given modern conviences and so many have the time to contemplate such a question. As we've evolved over time we've had more and more time to over analyze and complicate the matter. However when our life is threatened, in that moment, it becomes pretty clear what the meaning of life is. It's basic, it's simple and it's primal. To live. How you go about living is up to you. How you live your life and so on and so forth, but all of that can become irrelevant in an instant and you're left with the true meaning of life. God/s, heaven, hell, enlightenment, nirvana, etc... Afterlife... Irrelevent. The true meaning of life is to live in my opinion

Thanks for reading..

I'll live in your opinion, what's the rent ?

I like the view already ........ :D

Quote

' ... life and death carry on as they always have ~ and always will, only the dreamer is gone ~ behind the flow of imagination, beyond any effort to be still
dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions, only the dreamer is gone ~ the dream never ends
'

GIFTS WITH NO GIVER - a love affair with truth ~ Poems by Nirmala

third_eye ' s cavern ~ bring own beer


#203    Mr. Miyagi

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 09:28 PM

Remedial grammar lessons and its a deal? Lol


#204    himalyanmystic

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 08:21 AM

Meaning of life for ppl is something that gives fulfilment,
ppl who serve others ,some get bored others feel this is it, but then are we here to just be good and humble and nice,
wheres the fun in becoming too religious can got hate fun ,joy and intense involvement ,
if he created this universe,the multifaceted reality oppurtunity to think feel experience,
We can also created our meaning possibily or we can promote meaninglessnes,
the essence can be realised but overcoming the nonsense we have in our own mind is difficult,
we program our minds and we suffer,
we assume things and suffer till we realise and observe carefully,
reality evades us till we actually try to find rational experiences and consideration to every point of view ,
The experience of life is meant to be beautiful ,we have to enjoy life in its totality if possible,
My opinion,is humble ,just my thoughts,  but im myself happy give it another thought today to what is the meaning of my life.

[HIMALAYANMYSTIC

#205    himalyanmystic

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 08:25 AM

View PostMr. Miyagi, on 12 March 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

It's pretty simple. The true meaning of life is to live. Life is much less of a struggle for many people today given modern conviences and so many have the time to contemplate such a question. As we've evolved over time we've had more and more time to over analyze and complicate the matter. However when our life is threatened, in that moment, it becomes pretty clear what the meaning of life is. It's basic, it's simple and it's primal. To live. How you go about living is up to you. How you live your life and so on and so forth, but all of that can become irrelevant in an instant and you're left with the true meaning of life. God/s, heaven, hell, enlightenment, nirvana, etc... Afterlife... Irrelevent. The true meaning of life is to live in my opinion

Thanks for reading..
This is one good and sound explaination :)

[HIMALAYANMYSTIC

#206    Black Red Devil

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 09:12 AM

We are designed to evolve and progress.  That is the our human meaning in life.  No other creatures on earth are capable of such rationality.

We are each our own devil, and we make this world our hell

- Oscar Wilde

#207    Mr Walker

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 12:31 PM

View PostSherapy, on 12 March 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

No, MW, I am not only arguing that a chair exists only in 'your' internal reality, I am arguing that it exists objectively too; therefore, making your senses more reliable in the case of sitting in a chair.

Where your sense perception fails  for me is using  your own internal subjective reality as the only way to verify objective reality. Namely, your angel construct. Basically, I wish we could use your internal schema but we just cannot verify your angel pal objectively using your internal subjective reality. There is no way for us to do so.

Other then to take your word as evidence and on one hand I do think it is highly likely that you have constructed a world view that includes angels. On that note-- I think, 'you think' you have an angel friend. I am fine with that --where it gets sticky for me  is when you insist your perception is the only correct/possible one; therefore, can substitute as objective  evidence for me. Where it is possible to think you have an angel-- it is not likely objectively because we would all be able to verify the evidence of angels, like we can with a chair.

You are so close to getting this, you are literally 9 toes in.

Th  problem is that I know, using the same evidences, than an angel is as real physical and objectively existent as a chair. But you do not know this, and thus do not accpet it. There is no difference in reality, or in my mind between a real physicla angel and a real physical chair and thus there is no differnce in the way i can view them objectively, identify them and catalogue them.

There is no difference in how i can interact with them physically. It is this which you and others do not accept You keep believing that angels are some form of inner mental construct rather than external physical entities like chairs.  WE must all use the same evidences proofs and logics to establish every piece of our reality. No more; no less.

An angel is no more extraordinary than a chair in my world and has the same objective proofs for its existence as a chair does.. I dont think i sit on a chair and i dont think i have an angel friend.

An angel is a physical entity capable of being seen by others, heard by others, and physically interacting with me, others, and the environment. That is just the way it is.

I had an imaginary  pet dog as a young child. I could see it and no one else could, but i knew it wasnt real, because it did not offer the objective evidences which a real independent and physical entity must offer I knew it was a construct of my mind and hence it was at my beck and call. it operated as an extension of my mind and my will. Angels dont operate like that either, they are entirely self willed self motivated highly intelligent beings with knolwedge and abilities beyond my own which they can impart to me. They have physical abilities of healing, protection, and teaching/mentoring, emanating not from within me but from within them sleves.

I am a pretty cluey bloke but I dont possess super powers Those abilities come via external entities If you dont want to call these entities angels call them aliens. I dont care because that is what they actually are. For some peole having an alien as a protector sounds more rational than having an angel because it eliminates any religious aspect.

There is no religion in my conection to god and angels, and no belief. The relationship is like that between me and my dog but where I am more like the dog and god is more like me. It is a mutually beneficial sort of symbiotic connection, which involves physical and metaphysicla aspects. (As does my relationship with my dog) God, for me, is not a religious figure, precisely because he is real. He is a mate, a father and brother figure, a mentor and a protector. I never worshipped my physical father but i loved, honoured, respcted him, and listened to and learned from him. I have the same relationship with the entity I call god.

You CAN NOT have that sort of relationship with your own mental constructs.


In very simple terms, if you can accept that a chair I can see and can be seen by others has objective existence, then it is illogical and irrational to  not accept that an angel I can see, touch, hear, etc and can be seen by others, does not have the same objective existence. Only you can know why you require two different criteria for acceptance of my observational accuracy and that of others..

Edited by Mr Walker, 13 March 2013 - 12:37 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#208    Frank Merton

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 01:01 PM

View PostMr. Miyagi, on 12 March 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

The true meaning of life is to live in my opinion
That is probably (I say "probably" because I have ideas that we may find out otherwise at some point) true, but I wouldn't define that as a meaning.  If life has no meaning, then give it meaning.  The meaning of anything is only the meaning we give it.


#209    third_eye

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 03:48 PM

The 'reality' of our common existential 'reality' is a set of pre programmed labels/values ingrained in all societies by common language and communication.
It is merely a set with props that is decidedly more popular or availability.
A chair is an illusion of itself but is a constructed illusion made useful to our needs and our comfort.
Humans can sit quite comfortably on the ground, but the idea of the chair was adapted into reality where it never existed before, as what a chair is supposed to be thus weaving its existence into the fabric of other entrenched ideas of previous generations making it a 'part' of reality.

Reality doesn't come in parts .... as far I myself is seeing it now.

Quote

In all of physics there are only six conservation laws. Each describes a quantity that is conserved, that is, the total amount is the same before and after something occurs. These laws have the restriction that the system is closed, that is, the system is not affected by anything outside it.
here

everything is conserved ... nothing was ever lost .... from then till then till when

the 'chair' is meaningless without us and would never have existed without us,

~edit : lingual deficiency

Edited by third_eye, 13 March 2013 - 03:53 PM.

Quote

' ... life and death carry on as they always have ~ and always will, only the dreamer is gone ~ behind the flow of imagination, beyond any effort to be still
dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions, only the dreamer is gone ~ the dream never ends
'

GIFTS WITH NO GIVER - a love affair with truth ~ Poems by Nirmala

third_eye ' s cavern ~ bring own beer


#210    Frank Merton

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 04:03 PM

Mr. Walker described what I posted as "descartian rubbish," and then, as far as I can tell, went ahead and said over much what I had said, so that it all puzzles me.  I thought I knew Descartes, but how all this is Cartesian goes over my head.

The "reality" of angels makes me wonder what is going on.  Are similar things to be said about ghosts and demons and whatnot -- that they are made of physical stuff?  If so it is stuff with odd properties.





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