25266 replies to this topic

[skyeagle409]

psyche101, on 11 March 2011 - 05:08 AM, said:

It would appear that Schiff is a fraud. I ask yet again, although I take it you cannot answer the question I keep posing to you. Not the first time is it? Funny how you go on about your list of 20 fallacies, imagine the list of questions posed to you that you have never answered.

How amusing when it was well known that the Air Force was misleading Congressman Steven Schiff, so he called in reinforments, the GAO, which also dismissed the Air Force's Mogul balloon explanation.

Quote

Please explain why Schiff only released the second draft, and not the final conclusion, which trashes his claims.

It doesn't trash his claims by any means. He was sent on a 'wild goose chase' by the Air Force and he became very upset, but it is of no surprise to me, because I know that is how the Air Force has been operating on other issues where it seeks to hide the real story behind covver stories and disinformation and deception and I know that from first hand experience as well.

Our military is great with its deception techniques, after all, look how we used CNN to get Saddam Hussein to relocate his troops during fhe first Gulf War with our deception reports.  Our military  has been using that same technique on the public for years in regards to the Roswell incident and even during our UFO sightings over Vietnam and other bases.

Additionally, look how effectly the Air Force deception routine worked on a few folks by convincing them for 47 years  that a weather balloon was involved in the Roswell incident and then, trashing that false weather balloon cover story and exchanging it for a Mogul balloon train fliglht that never was, and test dummys and accident victims of the 1950s as responsible for an incident that occurred in 1947.

If you don't learn how to read between the lines, you will become victims of our military's deception practices, simiply said!

Quote

Please explain why Seibert wrote that letter to the GAO if records were not supposed to have been destroyed.

Please post his letter for all to read.

Edited by skyeagle409, 11 March 2011 - 05:35 AM.

[skyeagle409]

lost_shaman, on 11 March 2011 - 03:43 AM, said:

Even IF that's true my hypothesis explains this. It doesn't point to an "Alien Crash". For that matter there could be a number of reasons people destroy records nefariously.

The timing during the time  those records were destroyed illegally, shows that someone wanted to hide events at Roswell AAF during the time of the Roswell incident.

[psyche101]

skyeagle409, on 11 March 2011 - 03:10 AM, said:

Doesn't make any difference at, and it seems you missed some important points before, so here they are again.

Makes all the difference in the world, and I did not miss these, you just seem to scared to take on my answers. That in itself says enough, and why you are repeating yourself instead of answering questions.

skyeagle409, on 11 March 2011 - 03:10 AM, said:

*  No wreckage on the Foster ranch in June

You have no idea what was on the Foster Ranch in Jume. Ansd cosidering the claims of high winds, we do not know how far something might have been blown along the ground in a month before it was snagged and ripped up. As such, the cluster never even had to make the ranch. Just near it.

So where is Crareys cluster?

skyeagle409, on 11 March 2011 - 03:10 AM, said:

*  The clustered service balloon flight was not a Mogul balloon train the Air Force had said in its 1994 Roswell report, which was a false to begin with anyway.

Well, no **** sherlock. Nobody said otherwise. Get a grip man. How often have you said this and I have said, yes, just like the 1994 report says - service flight. What is wrong with you?

You cannot say a report is false at least until you have read it, which you have not done as you keep making horrendous mistakes about it.

skyeagle409, on 11 March 2011 - 03:10 AM, said:

*  The first successful Mogul balloon flight didn't occur until June 5, and was not  recovered on the Foster ranch.

Check that table I gave you.

skyeagle409, on 11 March 2011 - 03:10 AM, said:

* Brazel didn't discover any wreckage until July.

You have no idea what Brazel was doing the day before this mess started. If you say you do, you are making that up.

skyeagle409, on 11 March 2011 - 03:10 AM, said:

* The counter-intelligence folks had indicated that the material recovered on the Foster ranch, exhibited strange properties.



[/b]

Of course they would if that was the cover story. Not a shred of proof for this so called material though is there? Can you show me a piece? No, you cannot, nobody can. It is hearsay. And hearsay to you is as good as fact. You just do not realise that hearsay is only good enough  for zealots.

Edited by psyche101, 11 March 2011 - 05:42 AM.

[lost_shaman]

I just don't see Rep. Schiff in such a bad light as you seem to psyche.

His effort, even if misguided or not, has led to more information becoming public. This in turn spurred on more and more investigation. From an American POV what Rep. Schiff was doing wasn't a bad thing 'we' want the damn truth! I wish more Reps. and Senators in Congress would ask the tough questions the 'people' want answers to!

That's just my opinion at any rate.

[lost_shaman]

skyeagle409, on 11 March 2011 - 05:38 AM, said:

The timing during the time  those records were destroyed illegally, shows that someone wanted to hide events at Roswell AAF during the time of the Roswell incident.

What 'timing'?

You can't go around and say something 'shows' anything unless you reference what you are talking about. Do you have evidence of the 'timing'? If so then 'show' it to us before you tell us what it allegedly 'shows'.

Edited by lost_shaman, 11 March 2011 - 06:14 AM.

[skyeagle409]

psyche101, on 11 March 2011 - 05:00 AM, said:

With the balloon being described as torn to shreds that works in OK, you are now using Randles argument, but that is well explained with Lost Shamans CI hypothesis. If they were told to keep to a cover story to get the press of their backs, sure they would, not like anyone is getting hurt is it? You do not consider that ET may be the cover story you think is real.

Let's take a look at what Randle has said.

"There Was No Flight No. 4"


As I've said before, even the counter-intelligence folks were describing wreckage on the Foster ranch, and with strange properites as well.

And, as I have mentioned  before as well, we now have two cover stories still in effect that shows that the Roswell incident was not the result of any CI opeation, as the counter-intelliegence folks would have revealed such an operation decades ago, but instead, they have continued to describe the Roswell incident as an incident involving material exhibiting strange properties unknown to mankind, and that is from the counter-intelligence folks decades later who were directly involved in the Roswell incident.

The fact that the Air Force is keeping the two remaining Roswell cover stories well-oiled to this very day, also dismisses a CI operation in 1947 because once again, there is no need to throw in two additional cover stories for such an operation.

Edited by skyeagle409, 11 March 2011 - 06:16 AM.

[skyeagle409]

Let's take a look at what Randle has said.[/

"There Was No Flight No. 4"

　

BRIG.-GENERAL ARTHUR EXON

"[Some of it] could be easily ripped or changed... There were other parts of it that were very thin but awfully strong and couldn't be dented with heavy hammers...It was flexible to a degree... Some of it was flimsy and was tougher than hell, and the other was almost like foil but strong. It had them pretty puzzled. ...They knew they had something new in their hands. The metal and material was unknown to anyone I talked to. Whatever they found, I never heard what the results were. A couple of guys thought it might be Russian, but the overall consensus was that the pieces were from space. ...Roswell was the recovery of a craft from space."


JUNE CRAIN

(Crain was employed at Wright Field/Wright-Patterson AFB, Dayton, Ohio, from 1943 through 1952. Crain recalled that she saw and handled the following metallic debris in either 1951 or 1952 at Wright Field. Although it is not clear that the this debris is directly related to the 1947 Roswell event or some other event, the testimony is that the metal came from a spacecraft in New Mexico. The testimony is therefore included because of Crain's position and the similarity of the description to that of others. Links to the full interview and documentation of her employment can be found at http://www.majesticd...m/witnesses.php)


BRIG. GENERAL STEVEN LOVEKIN

(A Disclosure Project witness, Lovekin has recently testified to being intensively briefed on the UFO phenomenon when he worked in the Eisenhower and Kennedy White Houses in the Army Signaling Agency. The following testimony was based on briefings he received at the Pentagon around 1959.)

(Source) "This piece of an extraterrestrial craft was a grayish foil-like material... it had been taken from one of the ET craft that had crashed in New Mexico...


http://www.roswellpr...tml#anchor_3608

That would explain why even a U.S. Senator was denied access to a certain location on Wright-Patterson AFB.

　

Letter From Barry Goldwater

About UFO And

Wright Patterson
http://www.qtm.net/~...dan/cufon3.html

6-25-00

BARRY GOLDWATER
Arizona
Committees:
Aeronautical & Space Sci. Armed Services
Preparedness Inv Subcommit

UNITED STATES SENATE
Tactical Air Power Subcomm
Washington D.C. 20510
N. S. Naval Petroleum Reserves Subcommittee March 28, 1975 Mr.Shlomo Arnon U.C.L.A. Experimental College 308 Westwood Plaza Los Angeles, California 90024 Dear Mr.Arnon: The subject of UFOs is one that has interested me for some time. About ten or twelve years ago I made an effort to find out what was in the building at Wright Patterson Air Force Base where the information is stored that has been collected by the Air Force, and I was understandably denied this request.

It is still classified above Top Secret. I have, however, heard that there is a plan under way to release some, if not all, of this material in the near future. I'm just as anxious to see this material as you are, and I hope we will not have to wait too much longer.

Sincerely. Barry Goldwater

And, commnents made by Colonel Raymond Madson, Project officer for the Air Force's test dummy operations.

　

　

PARTICIPANT IN DUMMY DROPS SCOFFS AT AF REPORT

Dummies Weren't Classified, Says Retired Colonel

[CNI News thanks Robert Collins for sending us this story from the Associated Press, July 1997.]

A retired Air Force officer says he worked with high tech crash test dummies in the 1950s, and that there's no way they'd be confused with aliens described in rumors arising from the Roswell Incident.

Lt. Col. (Ret.) Raymond A. Madson said he isn't buying the latest Air Force explanation of what occurred in Roswell in July 1947. The Air Force believes crash test dummies used in the 1950s were mistaken for the rumored 1947 aliens and UFO buffs just got their dates mixed up.

Madson, 66, who now lives near Grants [New Mexico], said he was project officer for Project High Dive at Holloman Air Force Base for four years starting in the 1950s.

Madson said he sent photographs of Project High Dive dummies to the Pentagon for inclusion in the Air Force document, "The Roswell Report: Case Closed."

But he said the dummies do not match the descriptions of the very small, almost childlike beings purported to have been seen in 1947 near Roswell.

"They were testing these things (dummies) to try to protect grown men. They would never have used (dummies of) children for such experiments," he said.

Madson also served at Wright Patterson Air Force Base near Dayton, Ohio, before coming to Holloman. His wife worked at Wright Patterson as a secretary in the base medical laboratory, as well, he said.

Both of them heard serious talk about little green men who had been brought onto the base and studied secretly, he said. The subject of aliens never came up at Holloman, however.

"I think it was a highly kept secret at that time," he said. In contrast, there was nothing secret about his dummies, he said.

"The dummies were not covered up or hidden (when transported), and there was no security in the dummy drop phase of the experiments," he said.

And because the windblown dummies might end up falling just about anywhere, the Air Force even offered $25 rewards to local residents around Alamogordo to return the dummies to the base, he said. They were all stamped with labels identifying them as Air Force property, Madson said.

And:

　

Colonel Calls Air Force Roswell Report a Lie

When the Air Force in 1997 released Roswell Report: Case Closed, its debunking of the famed crash incident of 1947, it relied heavily on information provided by Lt. Col. Raymond Madson, project officer in charge of the military's "crash test dummy" program known as "Project High Dive." Madson's program was cited as the definitive explanation for widely reported claims of small alien bodies said to be recovered after the crash. The representation was that witnesses had confused the dummies with creatures from another world. But now, Madson has come forward publicly to say that the Air Force study is "itself a lie." Moreover, he believes aliens really did crash to Earth in the incident, and that the author of the Air Force report had no interest in uncovering what really happened, but "was on a mission."

In an interview with on-line reporter Anthony Braglia (http://ufocon.blogspot.com/2009/04/af-roswell-studycontributor-admits-it.html), Madson argued that the dummies used in his project could never be mistaken for aliens. Nevertheless, Madson says that Captain James McAndrew, the report's author, ignored the fact that the six-foot dummies were too large and were not used until years after the Roswell event. It is clear to Madson, now 79, that the report was intended the provide a public cover story and nothing else.

Earlier in his career Madson worked at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio. At the time he had heard rumors of highy secure areas on the base where secret medical research was carried out. When the Roswell event unfolded, he found the notion that alien bodies had been transferred from Roswell to Wright-Patterson to be entirely plausible. Madson's wife, who, at the time, worked at the base's medical laboratory, agrees.

　

And of course, Congressman Steven Schiff was also mislead by the Air Force on his Roswell investigation,

　

　My link

　

Edited by skyeagle409, 11 March 2011 - 06:27 AM.

[lost_shaman]

skyeagle409, on 11 March 2011 - 06:19 AM, said:

Let's take a look at what Randle has said.[/

"There Was No Flight No. 4"
[color="#0000ff"][size="3"]
　

Why don't you take a look at what McCoy said?

[b]"I can't even tell you how much we would give to have one of those crash in an area so that we could recover whatever they are."

[mcrom901]

lost_shaman, on 11 March 2011 - 06:55 AM, said:

Why don't you take a look at what McCoy said?

"I can't even tell you how much we would give to have one of those crash in an area so that we could recover whatever they are."

An Alien Smart Enough to Pull This

McCoy: An alien smart enough to pull this would be smart enough to keep my medical scanner from going bleep.
Jim: I don't follow you.
McCoy: I don't either.

[Hazzard]

This thread will be closing shortly, for reasons explained by webmaster Saru shortly.

I will open a third BE thread with the same purpose as the first two, to try and sort out all the hoaxes, lies and misinterpretations from the real deal. If there is such a thing?



See you there...

[quillius]

Hazzard, on 11 March 2011 - 11:33 AM, said:

This thread will be closing shortly, for reasons explained by webmaster Saru shortly.

I will open a third BE thread with the same purpose as the first two, to try and sort out all the hoaxes, lies and misinterpretations from the real deal. If there is such a thing?



See you there...

well its been ......emotional

[psyche101]

lost_shaman, on 11 March 2011 - 05:45 AM, said:

I just don't see Rep. Schiff in such a bad light as you seem to psyche.

His effort, even if misguided or not, has led to more information becoming public. This in turn spurred on more and more investigation. From an American POV what Rep. Schiff was doing wasn't a bad thing 'we' want the damn truth! I wish more Reps. and Senators in Congress would ask the tough questions the 'people' want answers to!

That's just my opinion at any rate.

I think there is no excuse for only releasing the second draft, when he knew the records were destroyed legitimately, the USAF has been under suspicion, and scrutiny, and had many misguided people not trust because of things like this, I dunno mate, I reckon he should have released the final draft, and not lead everyone on, I hate that. He wasn't the only one, as you would know, Clinton had a crack at it as well, and walked away happy no Aliens were being kept under wraps. Public outcry I feel forced the USAF reports, with jokers like Madson wandering around, it was only a matter of time before someone did a major investigation.

Had he come out with a correction, I'd be good with that.

[mcrom901]

psyche101, on 11 March 2011 - 11:37 AM, said:

Clinton had a crack at it as well, and walked away happy no Aliens were being kept under wraps.

cheers matey... when, where... what?

[psyche101]

skyeagle409, on 11 March 2011 - 06:13 AM, said:

Let's take a look at what Randle has said.

I like Lost Shamans reply to that one

skyeagle409, on 11 March 2011 - 06:13 AM, said:

"There Was No Flight No. 4"

Yes, there was, the service flight in Crareys diary. It has been dubbed flight #4 for ease of discussion It is just that you oppose ease of discussion.

skyeagle409, on 11 March 2011 - 06:13 AM, said:

As I've said before, even the counter-intelligence folks were describing wreckage on the Foster ranch, and with strange properites as well.

And as I said before, of course they would. ET could be the cover story that was destroyed in those old documents. MOGUL has made a fine scapegoat.

skyeagle409, on 11 March 2011 - 06:13 AM, said:

And, as I have mentioned  before as well, we now have two cover stories still in effect that shows that the Roswell incident was not the result of any CI opeation, as the counter-intelliegence folks would have revealed such an operation decades ago, but instead, they have continued to describe the Roswell incident as an incident involving material exhibiting strange properties unknown to mankind, and that is from the counter-intelligence folks decades later who were directly involved in the Roswell incident.

Why would they have revealed something they said they would not? Think about it, it makes more sense, if you were an adamant soldier, and trained yourself to answer "Alien!" at every opportunity, in the belief that the American public will not lose faith anymore than is the current situation in their defence forces if they find they were deliberately lied to, would your last fuzzy deathbed memories not reflect this? And if not, what better soldier than one who takes his oath to his grave?

skyeagle409, on 11 March 2011 - 06:13 AM, said:

The fact that the Air Force is keeping the two remaining Roswell cover stories well-oiled to this very day, also dismisses a CI operation in 1947 because once again, there is no need to throw in two additional cover stories for such an operation.

They are not cover stories, they are conclusions based on research. They say to read it and make your own mind up. That means, believe it or don't - this is it we are done.You are such a drama queen!

[psyche101]

mcrom901, on 11 March 2011 - 11:43 AM, said:

cheers matey... when, where... what?

I seem to remember him replying to a child's letter that as far as he knew:

"an alien spacecraft did not crash in Roswell, New Mexico,"