Child severely injured by flash grenade

[Aus Der Box Skeptisch]

We have been talking about the over militarization of the police lately. Read this story. Was this necessary? Thankfully they did attempt non lethal tactics. Too bad they didn't have the best leads. How do you feel about no-knock warrants?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/family-toddler-injured-swat-grenade-faces-1m-medical/story?id=27671521

This family now has debt estimated at 1 million dollars. They had no part of any crime. Except being related to someone.

[SHaYap]

Witch hunts kinda go hand in hand with fear mongering ~ always has been , always will be ~

[Aus Der Box Skeptisch]

Witch hunts kinda go hand in hand with fear mongering ~ always has been , always will be ~

Could you expand on your thought so I can fully appreciate what your trying to say. Thanks

[SHaYap]

Could you expand on your thought so I can fully appreciate what your trying to say. Thanks

Kinda meaning that over militarization of the police lately started from the fear mongering about the safety of the Homeland and hunts to justify it all naturally follows ~

Kinda curious too these days though about whether Un-American only applies to Americans or everything non-American ~

~

[Aus Der Box Skeptisch]

Kinda meaning that over militarization of the police lately started from the fear mongering about the safety of the Homeland and hunts to justify it all naturally follows ~

Kinda curious too these days though about whether Un-American only applies to Americans or everything non-American ~

~

[bubblykiss]

Immune to negligence. Amazing.

What is the case that was the genesis of this piece of legislation?

And imagine the attorney who wrote that evil little thing.

"Just because the police are criminally irresponsible does not mean that we should be responsible for their actions or accountable to pay debts incurred by grievous bodily injuries".

Their is a special place in hell for that ****'s hole.

[Aus Der Box Skeptisch]

That part got me too. Immune to negligence... I cannot fathom this as being proper

Edited December 19, 2014 by Aus Der Box Skeptisch

[pallidin]

Similarly, visiting diplomats are generally (not always) immune from negligent actions.

That aspect has always rubbed me wrong.

[Babe Ruth]

Another example of the many social pathologies brought by the drug prohibition and its zealous enforcement. Cops act like they are a Mission From God, and the courts go along with it.

Granting criminals retroactive immunity is a common tactic by the federal government these days.

[aztek]

oops, wrong thread

Edited December 19, 2014 by aztek

[Rafterman]

No knock warrants certainly have their place, but they are being over utilized and innocent people are getting killed and injured. We need stronger judicial oversight on these things - particularly when the intel is coming from a questionable source.

In this situation there was no need for a no knock. A little good old fashioned police work could have been used to verify the accuracy of the intel without any need to assault the home.

[SHaYap]

maybe a disproportionate of the intel is gathered through questionable means ~

[+and-then]

No knock warrants certainly have their place, but they are being over utilized and innocent people are getting killed and injured. We need stronger judicial oversight on these things - particularly when the intel is coming from a questionable source.

In this situation there was no need for a no knock. A little good old fashioned police work could have been used to verify the accuracy of the intel without any need to assault the home.

Which begs the question - do these guys enjoy playing soldier? I hope that eventually some citizens groups will be able to lobby the state governments to make such behavior carry penalties when it is as egregious as this. Cops need some protection legally but they certainly shouldn't be given a blank check to produce mayhem with no recourse for the citizens who are harmed. If this trend continues, police will begin to be targeted in revenge and then all hell will well and truly break loose.

[questionmark]

maybe a disproportionate of the intel is gathered through questionable means ~

I guess in this case it was notel instead of intel.

[Dredimus]

Which begs the question - do these guys enjoy playing soldier? I hope that eventually some citizens groups will be able to lobby the state governments to make such behavior carry penalties when it is as egregious as this. Cops need some protection legally but they certainly shouldn't be given a blank check to produce mayhem with no recourse for the citizens who are harmed. If this trend continues, police will begin to be targeted in revenge and then all hell will well and truly break loose.

No... we dont enjoy playing "soldier". Ive been both, an LEO and a Soldier... and neither are amazing jobs, but most of us do the best we can. Now, I want all of you commenting on how horrible these officers are, to sit back and think for a moment. Put yourselves in the shoes of the officers on the scene....

1) Your target is a garage... Legally, this is not supposed to be a living space.

2) The man you are after is a known meth addict with problems and a history (Notice how they left him out of this story as much as possible).

3) Once you realize what has transpired, its far to late and you have to live with that $#!4 in your mind forever, its not easy to get rid of, I promise.

4) YOU are just the officer following orders.... the warrant wasnt faulty, based on all available information, the suspect was last known to live at this address.

Its not an easy job... and as an "LEO" I get so sick of being lumped in with the .5% of screw ups you hear about in the news.

NOW... for the rest of the situation... I feel for that baby and the entire family... I hate that something like this happened to them, especially on top of an already horrible situation and terrible time in their lives. I understand where the grand jury came from with the no charges issue, but something needs to be done and there should be no such thing as "immunity from negligence". These officers were doing their job, had bad information and a mistake was made because of it. The County and State should more than take care of the hospital bills owed... some type of repiration should also be made... IMHO.

[Beefers]

1M in medical bills? WOW...

But anyways, the one responsible (or the ones responsible for that person) should have to deal with all the costs ofcourse.

[Rafterman]

No... we dont enjoy playing "soldier". Ive been both, an LEO and a Soldier... and neither are amazing jobs, but most of us do the best we can. Now, I want all of you commenting on how horrible these officers are, to sit back and think for a moment. Put yourselves in the shoes of the officers on the scene....

1) Your target is a garage... Legally, this is not supposed to be a living space.

2) The man you are after is a known meth addict with problems and a history (Notice how they left him out of this story as much as possible).

3) Once you realize what has transpired, its far to late and you have to live with that $#!4 in your mind forever, its not easy to get rid of, I promise.

4) YOU are just the officer following orders.... the warrant wasnt faulty, based on all available information, the suspect was last known to live at this address.

Its not an easy job... and as an "LEO" I get so sick of being lumped in with the .5% of screw ups you hear about in the news.

NOW... for the rest of the situation... I feel for that baby and the entire family... I hate that something like this happened to them, especially on top of an already horrible situation and terrible time in their lives. I understand where the grand jury came from with the no charges issue, but something needs to be done and there should be no such thing as "immunity from negligence". These officers were doing their job, had bad information and a mistake was made because of it. The County and State should more than take care of the hospital bills owed... some type of repiration should also be made... IMHO.

Which is exactly why more judicial oversight is necessary. There was no "clear and present danger" in this case and therefore no need to assault the home.

Even if the guy is a known meth addict with a history, his family wasn't guilty of anything. How about surveiling the house for a couple of days and then pick the guy up when he goes to the grocery store or something like that? As I said earlier, put the armored vehicles back in the garage, hang up the tactical gear, put the M4s back in the rack, and do a little good old fashioned police work.

[Babe Ruth]

No... we dont enjoy playing "soldier". Ive been both, an LEO and a Soldier... and neither are amazing jobs, but most of us do the best we can. Now, I want all of you commenting on how horrible these officers are, to sit back and think for a moment. Put yourselves in the shoes of the officers on the scene....

1) Your target is a garage... Legally, this is not supposed to be a living space.

2) The man you are after is a known meth addict with problems and a history (Notice how they left him out of this story as much as possible).

3) Once you realize what has transpired, its far to late and you have to live with that $#!4 in your mind forever, its not easy to get rid of, I promise.

4) YOU are just the officer following orders.... the warrant wasnt faulty, based on all available information, the suspect was last known to live at this address.

Its not an easy job... and as an "LEO" I get so sick of being lumped in with the .5% of screw ups you hear about in the news.

NOW... for the rest of the situation... I feel for that baby and the entire family... I hate that something like this happened to them, especially on top of an already horrible situation and terrible time in their lives. I understand where the grand jury came from with the no charges issue, but something needs to be done and there should be no such thing as "immunity from negligence". These officers were doing their job, had bad information and a mistake was made because of it. The County and State should more than take care of the hospital bills owed... some type of repiration should also be made... IMHO.

Good post.

The simple truth is that the system is way out of control and fundamentally unsound, the system that is the Drug Prohibition.

What you express in this post is why I support Law Enforcement Against Prohibition. www.leap.org

[Dredimus]

Good post.

The simple truth is that the system is way out of control and fundamentally unsound, the system that is the Drug Prohibition.

What you express in this post is why I support Law Enforcement Against Prohibition. www.leap.org

Your link goes to the page for Leadership Education for Asian Pacifics....

I dont support legalizing any drug besides marijuana. Legalize it, tax it... not only is it safer than alcohol... but the economic increase would be nothing short of insane.

if you are calling for the prohibition against meth/heroin/cocaine/pcp to end... you've never had to deal with a 15 year old addict that was sucked into that under culture and can no longer function in the real world because their mind and body is destroyed...

*edited for monday morning fingers

Edited December 22, 2014 by Dredimus

[Dredimus]

Which is exactly why more judicial oversight is necessary. There was no "clear and present danger" in this case and therefore no need to assault the home.

Even if the guy is a known meth addict with a history, his family wasn't guilty of anything. How about surveiling the house for a couple of days and then pick the guy up when he goes to the grocery store or something like that? As I said earlier, put the armored vehicles back in the garage, hang up the tactical gear, put the M4s back in the rack, and do a little good old fashioned police work.

You honestly do not know if there was "clear and present danger" nor do you know the details of the actual intel that was received... nor do you know this guys record of violent crimes... and all that just leads back to what im saying... put yourself in the shoes of the LEO. Im not saying they are blameless in the situation and im not saying that the intel gathered shouldnt have been investigated deeper... I am however, saying that doing a surveillance op for a few days may not have been an option. There is a reason a felony warrant went out for this guy... theres a reason he needed to be brought in ASAP. Good Old Fashioned Police Work is reserved for good old fashioned criminals... People expect the enforcers of the law to remain ever constant while the world moves forward around us... btw, basic officers do not use the M4, or "tactical" gear... I dont consider a vest to be tactical... nor does wearing a black uniform make you "tactical". Sounds like some Airsoft MILSAP bs.

http://youtu.be/sEvZBKwvE0k

[Babe Ruth]

Your link goes to the page for Leadership Education for Asian Pacifics....

I dont support legalizing any drug besides marijuana. Legalize it, tax it... not only is it safer than alcohol... but the economic increase would be nothing short of insane.

if you are calling for the prohibition against meth/heroin/cocaine/pcp to end... you've never had to deal with a 15 year old addict that was sucked into that under culter and can no longer function in the real world because their mind and body is destroyed...

Oh yes I have, and your appeal to emotion does nothing but make your case worse.

[Dredimus]

Oh yes I have, and your appeal to emotion does nothing but make your case worse.

It's not an appeal to emotion, its a simple truth BR. If you honestly believe that meth should be legal I'm not sure we can carry on any further discussion.

[aztek]

Oh yes I have, and your appeal to emotion does nothing but make your case worse.

what eles do they have? i mean every single person with half a brain and 1 eye can see prohibition of any drug FAILED, i can feel nothing but pitty for those that support something that failed misarebly on all fronts.

Edited December 22, 2014 by aztek

[Rafterman]

You honestly do not know if there was "clear and present danger" nor do you know the details of the actual intel that was received... nor do you know this guys record of violent crimes... and all that just leads back to what im saying... put yourself in the shoes of the LEO. Im not saying they are blameless in the situation and im not saying that the intel gathered shouldnt have been investigated deeper... I am however, saying that doing a surveillance op for a few days may not have been an option. There is a reason a felony warrant went out for this guy... theres a reason he needed to be brought in ASAP. Good Old Fashioned Police Work is reserved for good old fashioned criminals... People expect the enforcers of the law to remain ever constant while the world moves forward around us... btw, basic officers do not use the M4, or "tactical" gear... I dont consider a vest to be tactical... nor does wearing a black uniform make you "tactical". Sounds like some Airsoft MILSAP bs.

Clearly you didn't read the article. The grand jury found that the task force used shoddy and rushed police work and should have done more to confirm the intelligence it had received. It is clear that this person posed no immediate threat to society. Why the need to assault the home when a simple knock on the front door would have sufficed? Again, good old fashioned police work.

And while I am sympathetic to law enforcement and realize they face no-win scenarios on a constant basis, I also feel that the militarization of our police has brought about way too many mistakes like this and it needs to be stopped.

[Dredimus]

Clearly you didn't read the article. The grand jury found that the task force used shoddy and rushed police work and should have done more to confirm the intelligence it had received. It is clear that this person posed no immediate threat to society. Why the need to assault the home when a simple knock on the front door would have sufficed? Again, good old fashioned police work.

And while I am sympathetic to law enforcement and realize they face no-win scenarios on a constant basis, I also feel that the militarization of our police has brought about way too many mistakes like this and it needs to be stopped.

No where in the article is it made clear that this young man posed no threat... his charges arent even really discussed, nor is his past... And I agreed with you about the investigation... more should have been done... however, thats not on the officers that were at the scene, they work with the information they are given. We arent talking about basic officers or investigators.