Jesus, Judiasm, and fasting

[Ashley-Star*Child]

Someone on here said that 'Jesus broke the rules of the Old Testament and 10 commandents, so now all we have to do is love and be good people'. I am grieved to learn there really ARE people who do actually believe in God, but ONLY follow the NT, and seem to believe the OT is no longer valid. Now, one that is completely false Jesus did NOT EVER tell people to go against His FATHER'S RULES which is what the entire OT is about. And two, as I've said before, Jesus DID FAST according to OT Judiasm. On 'the Last Supper' as it is now known, Jesus was observing PASSOVER. Furthermore, Jesus did NOT say peopel were not to fast according to HIS FATHER'S rules. And I quote.

Jesus Questioned About Fasting

  18Now John's disciples and the Pharisees were fasting. Some people came and asked Jesus, “How is it that John's disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees are fasting, but yours are not?”

  19Jesus answered, “How can the guests of the bridegroom fast while he is with them? They cannot, so long as they have him with them. 20But the time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them, and on that day they will fast.

  21“No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment. If he does, the new piece will pull away from the old, making the tear worse. 22And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, he pours new wine into new wineskins.”

In other words, while Jesus was here His disciples weren't fasting (on the Sabbath, Jesus still fasted on Passover, obviously) but afterwards they would.

However, He also said, of breaking Sabbath rules when need be (you aren't permitted to eat yeast on Friday sunset to Saturday sunset - THAT IS THE SABBATH, NOT SUNDAY. Sunday was brought in by the ROMANS because their favourite 'god' was the 'sun god' Sun=SUNDAY.):

Lord of the Sabbath

  23One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”

  25He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”

  27Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

So, why is it that no Christian fast during Passover? Instead, new fasts have been introduced.....which came from....where?

[+joc]

So, why is it that no Christian fast during Passover? Instead, new fasts have been introduced.....which came from....where?

We aren't Jewish...we are Gentiles. Do you believe Ashley that if you allow an employee of yours to work on the Sabbath that you should be stoned to death? How about gays Ashley? Should they be stoned to death? The Old Testament law requires it. So...which is it? The whole point of the laws of the Old Testament was to show man how imperfect he was in the Holy eyes of God. The whole point of Jesus life and death was that God forgives us for not being Holy enough to keep all of the laws. It is all about forgiveness Ashley...not adhereing to a bunch of laws.

[Ashley-Star*Child]

True the Jews adhered too much to laws. THAT'S WHAT JESUS WAS TRYING TO EXPLAIN TO THEM. It's not just about the laws. HOWEVER, that does NOT mean you were to completely disrespect the laws of GOD, Jesus' FATHER either. I've already said in another post, that there are genetic factoers for homosexuality and that I don't judge it. It's not about being stoned, that goes against what God also said 'MAN WAS NOT MADE FOR JUDGEMENT'. However, like I said, it didn't mean that everyone was just suddenly exempt from following God's laws. Fasting is done as a sign of respect, etc. Don't you respect God? It makes no difference if you aren't Jewish, was Jesus not Jewish? Yes He was. So was Mary, and His ENTIRE bloodline.

Edited February 25, 2005 by Magikman

[P4P3R T1G3R2]

My 2 pennies,

The Old Testament law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians. Some of the laws were to make the Israelites know how to obey and please God, some of them were to show them how to worship God (the sacrificial system), some of them were to simply make the Israelites different from other nations (the food and clothing rules). None of the Old Testament law applies to Christians today. When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law (Rom 10:4; Gal 3:23-25; Eph 2:15). In place of the Old Testament law, we are under the law of Christ (Gal 6:2) which is to, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments” (Matt 22:37-40).

If that makes any sense.

[Ashley-Star*Child]

Jesus, might I add, quoted the 10 commandents of which all are to follow. If you follow Jesus, and Jesus IS Jewish, why would your rules be any different? MAN, made different rules, different fasting dates, etc, not God, or Jesus. If so, why was Jesus observing Passover? There were actually 113 commandments given to Moses, but most are for Rabbis. However, some ARE in the Bible in Exodus, what God was saying there are part of the 113 rules, but Christians choose to ignore them. The 10 are the 10 major rules, most of which just about every legal system worldwide aheres to. Don't kill. Don't steal, etc.

Edited February 25, 2005 by Magikman

[Jesus_Freak]

so Ashley, do you follow all of the OT rules and fasting dates?

Edited February 25, 2005 by Jesus_Freak

[P4P3R T1G3R2]

Jesus actually said that he brought a new convenant and destroyed the old one.

Edit to my other post:

This was the site I got the info from and there's more than what I posted.

http://www.gotquestions.org/fasting.html

Edited February 25, 2005 by P4P3R T1G3R2

[Erikl]

Huh? Fasting at Passover?!

Jews do not fast on Passover, we actually eat quite a lot, there's even a passover seder supper (which is what Jesus was doing in his last supper - was eating in his passover seder as any normal Jew of his time did).

There are mainly two things Jews do during Passover: eating matzoh, or unleavened bread; and abstain from eating any foods containing leavening during the holiday.

But fasting? during passover of all holidays?? where did you get that?!

Edited February 25, 2005 by Erikl

[Ashley-Star*Child]

so Ashley, do you follow all of the OT rules and fasting dates?

500667[/snapback]

Yes I do. I follow the Judaism Sabbath, light candles, obstain from yeast on those days, follow Passover, Yom Kippur (Atonement, one day of which you cannot put ANYTHING in your body at all, not even water, nor let water/ointments touch your skin for a total of 25 hours, etc, and let me tell you, it's hell, but it's done for the atonement of sins for the past year). That's not to say I never break the rules, sometimes it can't be helped, but I do try to observe them.

Jesus actually said that he brought a new convenant and destroyed the old one.

Edit to my other post:

This was the site I got the info from and there's more than what I posted.

http://www.gotquestions.org/fasting.html

No, like I said, Jesus 1. said while He was here they didn't have to fast but afterwards they would and 2. He said He did not come here for peace but to cause a division. That division was Judiasm and Christianity, but it had nothing to do with fasts. The division was about those who would accept Jesus and those who wouldn't. Is not one of the 10 commandments 'Observe the Sabbath'? Did not Jesus Himself quote the 10 commandments??? The new conevnant was about allowing souls to go to Heaven, something which never happened before Jesus. All souls before Him except for prophets and their families went either to hell or Sheol (sleep) which Jesus released when He went into hell and got not only Judas out but EVERYONE up to that point, and allowed for future souls the chance to enter Heaven.

[Ashley-Star*Child]

Huh? Fasting at Passover?!

Jews do not fast on Passover, we actually eat quite a lot, there's even a passover seder supper (which is what Jesus was doing in his last supper - was eating in his passover seder as any normal Jew of his time did).

There are mainly two things Jews do during Passover: eating matzoh, or unleavened bread; and abstain from eating any foods containing leavening during the holiday.

But fasting? during passover of all holidays?? where did you get that?!

500690[/snapback]

Abstaining from leavened bread is fasting in our modern world. What can you get at a take-away store that DOESN'T contain yeast or yeast products? Even KFC does! But, yeah it is more than fasting, like the lamb. Even though I don't normally eat meat, I do at that time for religious purposes.

[rassy]

My 2 pennies,

The Old Testament law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians.  Some of the laws were to make the Israelites know how to obey and please God, some of them were to show them how to worship God (the sacrificial system), some of them were to simply make the Israelites different from other nations (the food and clothing rules).  None of the Old Testament law applies to Christians today.  When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law (Rom 10:4; Gal 3:23-25; Eph 2:15).  In place of the Old Testament law, we are under the law of Christ (Gal 6:2) which is to, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.  This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it:  Love your neighbor as yourself.  All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments” (Matt 22:37-40). 

If that makes any sense.

500478[/snapback]

Actually.... the way I read it in Matthew was that someone asked Jesus abt all those laws and how can we remember them all? And so he talked abt the laws and then (basically) said, if all else fails (that's how I interpretted it) then at least remember these two laws, as they are the most important and go hand in hand. He never said to stop following the old laws. Else, does that mean I can go out and kill someone now? He did put an end to some customs, though, as he fulfilled a major prophecy. So, certain things that were done to remember that prophecy now no longer had to be adhered to.

Ashley, you seem very knowlegable with the bible. Wow, that's awesome. I can't seem to be able to remember all these loads of things LOL It won;t stay in my head. Anyhow, I THINK I can answer your passover question, maybe a little. Passover went back to when the Isrealites were all slaves in Egypt and the plagues happened and there was the one where you had to put sheep (or goat?) blood on the door if you believed in god, the angel would pass by that house not not kill the first born. That was a plague from god in reference to his biggest prophecy, the coming of the savior (first born, sacrfice of blood etc). I believe all the plagues had a reference or significance to the chosen ones but which the egyptians did not understand. Anyhow, that one with the blood on the door was where passover originated from and since Jesus fulfilled that prophecy, it no longer needed to be customary to practice the rituals of it. They were put in place to remember what God did for them, what was to come etc. I could be wrong, since I don't see this world saved just yet, although Jesus did fulfill the prophecy of dying for us.

And you're right, the Sabbath is saturday, not sunday. Another gift from the catholic church. It's true Sunday was made within the roman empire but it was the catholic church who deemed sunday the day of worship, incorparating the Sabbath into Sunday to convert the pagans.

[Ashley-Star*Child]

Yes, Passover goes back to Moses and the angel of death. And thank you I know it's some people's opinion that these 'fasts' are longer to be observed, but they are obversed in light of what God did, and as such, are a sign of respect, and the willingness to forgo one's personal desires, just for a little while, for God.

Edited February 25, 2005 by Magikman

[Magikman]

Ashley,

I'm getting tired of having to edit the redundant quotes out of just about all your responses. It isn't necessary to copy the complete text of the post that sits directly above yours into your reply, the discussion isn't that hard to follow. If your intent is to keep confusion to a minimum, all you need do is include the name of the member you are addressing at the very beginning of your comments.

Magikman

[Ashley-Star*Child]

MM,

Hitting the reply button automatically quotes the post. If it's a problem, why it that feature on there? I'm not copying out every single previous post.

[BurnSide]

You can edit the quote so that not all the text appears in your post, you can also hit the 'quote' botton several times to quote more than one post, and edit those quotes as you see fit so that you're replying to the particular point instead of the entire content.

For example, see Stellars posts.

[Ashley-Star*Child]

Oh, ok.

[pallidin]

The NT fasting has nothing to do with food. That was OT.

NT fasting is mental, emotional and spiritual.

The "perfect" fast is not when you deny yourself food, but rather that you give also your food to others.

[+joc]

Wow...I don't really know what is making me feel so stupid....responding to a religious tirade of Ashley's or just now discovering that there was a 'reply' button. Honestly, I never new it was there...I just always hit 'add reply' and then lifted whatever quote out and pasted it into the frame.

[rassy]

I completely agree with you, Ashley

joc, there's no sense in making a comment like that. First of all, it's quite easy to miss the quick reply button at the bottom when one is reading and wants to reply to a specific comment right away. I surely didn't know it was there at first.

Secondly, as far as I can see, Ashley does not have religious tirades. She's no kook, either. I've seen her comments around here and there and it is quite obvious to see this lady is well educated in her bible literature and knowledge. Even though we might be from opposite ends of the spectrum, I can still see she knows what she's talking about and her points are well worth listening to.

[Ashley-Star*Child]

Joc, your point on this thread is...what?

Thank you Rassy.

Pallidin. Did you read that in the Bible, or did someone tell you that? It's best not to believe everything everyone tells you without checking sources.

Edited February 25, 2005 by Ashley-Star*Child

[+joc]

Joc, your point on this thread is...what?

Interesting question...I'm still trying to figure out what your point on this thread is...and you are the one who started it.

Abstaining from leavened bread is fasting in our modern world. What can you get at a take-away store that DOESN'T contain yeast or yeast products? Even KFC does! But, yeah it is more than fasting, like the lamb. Even though I don't normally eat meat, I do at that time for religious purposes.

Abstaining from leavened bread is not fasting in any sense of the word. You make stuff up to fit your ridiculous arguments...you even make stuff up to 'begin' ridiculous arguments:

Someone on here said that 'Jesus broke the rules of the Old Testament and 10 commandents, so now all we have to do is love and be good people'.

If you can't provide the original quote, why even bother starting a thread where you are using the quote as a premise?

I am grieved to learn there really ARE people who do actually believe in God, but ONLY follow the NT, and seem to believe the OT is no longer valid.

Who cares if you are grieved about what someone else believes or not? I certainly don't. Your cultish beliefs are of no consequence to me or anyone else. As far as I am concerned MM was correct in the beginning. This thread is pointless and should be closed. It is just much ado about your 'boo-hooing' over what someone allegedly said that rubbed your cult mentality the wrong way.

[The Raven]

Someone on here said that 'Jesus broke the rules of the Old Testament and 10 commandents, so now all we have to do is love and be good people'. I am grieved to learn there really ARE people who do actually believe in God, but ONLY follow the NT, and seem to believe the OT is no longer valid. Now, one that is completely false Jesus did NOT EVER tell people to go against His FATHER'S RULES which is what the entire OT is about. And two, as I've said before, Jesus DID FAST according to OT Judiasm. On 'the Last Supper' as it is now known, Jesus was observing PASSOVER. Furthermore, Jesus did NOT say peopel were not to fast according to HIS FATHER'S rules. And I quote.

Jesus Questioned About Fasting

  18Now John's disciples and the Pharisees were fasting. Some people came and asked Jesus, “How is it that John's disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees are fasting, but yours are not?”

  19Jesus answered, “How can the guests of the bridegroom fast while he is with them? They cannot, so long as they have him with them. 20But the time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them, and on that day they will fast.

  21“No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment. If he does, the new piece will pull away from the old, making the tear worse. 22And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, he pours new wine into new wineskins.”

In other words, while Jesus was here His disciples weren't fasting (on the Sabbath, Jesus still fasted on Passover, obviously) but afterwards they would.

However, He also said, of breaking Sabbath rules when need be (you aren't permitted to eat yeast on Friday sunset to Saturday sunset - THAT IS THE SABBATH, NOT SUNDAY. Sunday was brought in by the ROMANS because their favourite 'god' was the 'sun god' Sun=SUNDAY.):

Lord of the Sabbath

  23One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”

  25He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”

  27Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

So, why is it that no Christian fast during Passover? Instead, new fasts have been introduced.....which came from....where?

499452[/snapback]

I don't know much about the bible, but OT makes your post seem very confusing. I know it's the Old Testament but some people may think it means Off-Topic. Many christian ideals are from other cultures, and some have probably just been created by preists who disrespected the faith and simply made up things to tie in with their hogwash (No, I'm not saying Christianity is hogwash, corrupted views of it are)

The English day Sunday is named after the Norse goddess Sunna, who is not of the Sun, but of spinning, weaving, and fate. Yet, I have also heard that Sunna is another name for Sol, or the sun, even though Frey is supposed to be God of the Sun. This day is not of a Roman or Latin derivative. I would like to learn more about that, though.

Edited February 25, 2005 by The Raven

[Erikl]

Huh? Fasting at Passover?!

Jews do not fast on Passover, we actually eat quite a lot, there's even a passover seder supper (which is what Jesus was doing in his last supper - was eating in his passover seder as any normal Jew of his time did).

There are mainly two things Jews do during Passover: eating matzoh, or unleavened bread; and abstain from eating any foods containing leavening during the holiday.

But fasting? during passover of all holidays?? where did you get that?!

500690[/snapback]

Abstaining from leavened bread is fasting in our modern world. What can you get at a take-away store that DOESN'T contain yeast or yeast products? Even KFC does! But, yeah it is more than fasting, like the lamb. Even though I don't normally eat meat, I do at that time for religious purposes.

500705[/snapback]

Saying that abstaining from leavened bread is fasting is like sayin that keeping to kosher products is fasting in our modern world, cause where can you get kosher meat, cheese, wine etc. unless that country has a market with these things?

Here in Israel, for example, during passover, the stores are filled with unleavened bakery along side the normal leavened bread products so religious people could still eat bread, cookies, etc. without the need to go against their beliefs.

Passover itself is all about family, eating, celebrating the fact that Jews were free from slavery. So we eat quite a lot in this holiday, to the point that you actually eat things you don't usually eat during the seder supper because of the things they symbolize.

When you think about it, fasting during passover would actually be sinful, because it would be like you are weeping for the fact that your people have been saved.

[Ashley-Star*Child]

Erik,

That may be the case in Isreal, and understandably so, but here, yeast is in just about everything. Even canned soup.

Joc,

One, MM didn't say he was going to close the post, he was talking about quotes in replies obivously, you have a reading problem. Two, I don't personally care what you do, I'm just stating that the nowhere did it say the laws were intended to have been changed - not the way it has been anyway. Technically, you're the one who is boo-hooing. Look at yourself. Why don't you shutupand get the hell off my thread if you have nothing constructive to add other than you whinging. You just can't handle the fact that Jesus was Jewish not a gentile and He never actually said you shouln't be following OT rules. Get over it. He said He would, in so many words, incorporate gentiles into the belief system. He did NOT say they are exempt from the rules. What makes you think you are any damn better? Who was created first here???

The Raven,

Many Christian ideals are man-made.

Edited February 25, 2005 by Ashley-Star*Child

[Erikl]

Erik,

That may be the case in Isreal, and understandably so, but here, yeast is in just about everything. Even canned soup.

So? just because you happen to live in a country where Jews are a small minority, and so most of the food around you includes yeast during passover, doesn't mean that it's a religious command to fast on passover.

That's just a twisted logic, I'm afraid.

Plus, I'm sure that if you'll go to some jewish communities in your country, you will find unleavened bakery during passover.

One can use the same logic to assume that vegeterians fast cause they don't eat meat, which is found in almost everything (and the more strict ones don't eat anything that came from an animal, including eggs and diary products).

I have no idea who told you Jews fast during passover. Actually, I think this country (Israel) gain few kilograms each passover .

If you fasted in anyway during passover, you were celebrating this holiday in the wrong way I'm afraid.