91 replies to this topic

[acidhead]

DieChecker, on 03 December 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

No.... He's been around 4 years. Do you really think he is going to go all Clinton on the Congress and start shaking Repub hands and cutting deals?

I think Obama will do whatever he is told to do. He has to... it's the only reason he's there imo.

[DieChecker]

acidhead, on 04 December 2012 - 03:53 AM, said:

I think Obama will do whatever he is told to do. He has to... it's the only reason he's there imo.

Could be.... Personnally, I think if he has puppetmasters, he is not being a very good puppet. You'd think he'd get things done faster if he was being told what to do.

[DieChecker]

ninjadude, on 04 December 2012 - 03:39 AM, said:

So has Obama. To "work together", both sides need to do so. Republicans have made it publicly clear that would not do so. And stop with the racial incitement words.

Racial?? Whaaa....

Anyway, today the Republicans handed over the tax increases they would agree to... about 800 billion. Doesn't seem like they are refusing to talk. It took them only a weekend to come up with a counterproposal. Which is how two party politics is played. Give and Take with those with the more backing (Or the best leverage) getting more of what they want.

So we will see if Obama makes his counterproposal, or if he just has a snit.

The only thing Republicans want is to not "Raise" taxes on the rich. They have already agreed to Tax Reform, which would do the same thing. Why is Obama so stubborn that he MUST increase taxes on the rich... hummm?

[acidhead]

DieChecker, on 04 December 2012 - 05:56 AM, said:

Could be.... Personnally, I think if he has puppetmasters, he is not being a very good puppet. You'd think he'd get things done faster if he was being told what to do.

yes, but only if the two parties represented themselves... it's obvious both the D's and the R's have the same monetary and foreign policies.  So does the so-called Prez of the USA.

[Pyridium]

Obama owes a lot of cities a lot of "bacon".  Don't force him to use his executive order again, please, not again, and again, and again...give him the checkbook, the entire account and let him do as he wishes.  He has a grand plan in mind.

[Einsteinium]

Hello all

I just wanted to give my 2 cents to this thread. I do not think that the debt limit should be raised to infinity. I think that is a scary and extremely irresponsible idea and I do not think that idea would ever pass. Mr. Geithner's job would certainly be easier if he did not have to worry about debt. limits so I can see why he would want it from a personal standpoint, but is it good for the country? NO.

That being said, I think that Obama is right to keep spending high, it is simply a matter of economics. When growth slows in the economy the private sector will not be able to spend and make growth tick up, so therefore the govt. must step in and spend money to keep the economy going. Most economists agree that the great depression was made MUCH worse because the govt. cut back on spending when they should have done more deficit spending to boost economic growth when the private sector could not. The govt. should keep spending at a deficit until growth recovers, and then the govt. decreases spending and cuts back and lets private industry drive growth once it is able to do so.This is what govt. should do during recession.

The underlying issues here are:

1. The spending should be focused on building infrastructure- fixing our bridges/roads/etc. In my opinion the Obama admin has wasted much of the money they have spent and could have put it to much better use from an economic standpoing.

2. Bush Jr. Yes yes I know, the evil Mr. Bush . He has a LARGE role to play here. For you see. When the economy was booming and doing great under his admin, he should have been cutting back spending and starting to pay down the deficit. Had he done so we would have had less of a debt. when the great recession started, and thus the debt. would not have skyrocketed as it has under Obama. Bush spent hundreds of billions on the war in Iraq and he never put forth a plan to pay for this war. Neither did congress which Obama was a part of at the time.

3. Our govt. is stupid, yes, stupid. They never saved money in a rainy day fund. They have squandered our tax dollars on ridiculous things during the good times, and then when bad times hit and spending MUST be increased, then it is a big panic and our debt. skyrockets. We should have a large rainy day fund that we add too during good economic times, and use that money during recessionary times to spur growth. This makes logical sense and is fiscally responsible. I myself have money set aside just for hard times. The govt. should do the same.

4. Our economic system is based on never ending growth. Economists agree that for the foreseeable future this growth should continue, but logically we all know that never-ending growth is unsustainable in the long term. Just a point I wanted to bring up as I would love to discuss the implications of what this means for the world economy if growth were to stay flat indefinitely. Right now if that were to happen the world economic system would likely totally collapse.

I look forward to the badgering and attacks on me for this post! bring it on UM!

[F3SS]

Einsteinium, on 06 December 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

Hello all file:///C:/Users/Shaun/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif

I just wanted to give my 2 cents to this thread. I do not think that the debt limit should be raised to infinity. I think that is a scary and extremely irresponsible idea and I do not think that idea would ever pass. Mr. Geithner's job would certainly be easier if he did not have to worry about debt. limits so I can see why he would want it from a personal standpoint, but is it good for the country? NO.

That being said, I think that Obama is right to keep spending high, it is simply a matter of economics. When growth slows in the economy the private sector will not be able to spend and make growth tick up, so therefore the govt. must step in and spend money to keep the economy going. Most economists agree that the great depression was made MUCH worse because the govt. cut back on spending when they should have done more deficit spending to boost economic growth when the private sector could not. The govt. should keep spending at a deficit until growth recovers, and then the govt. decreases spending and cuts back and lets private industry drive growth once it is able to do so.This is what govt. should do during recession.

The underlying issues here are:

1. The spending should be focused on building infrastructure- fixing our bridges/roads/etc. In my opinion the Obama admin has wasted much of the money they have spent and could have put it to much better use from an economic standpoing.

2. Bush Jr. Yes yes I know, the evil Mr. Bush file:///C:/Users/Shaun/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.gif. He has a LARGE role to play here. For you see. When the economy was booming and doing great under his admin, he should have been cutting back spending and starting to pay down the deficit. Had he done so we would have had less of a debt. when the great recession started, and thus the debt. would not have skyrocketed as it has under Obama. Bush spent hundreds of billions on the war in Iraq and he never put forth a plan to pay for this war. Neither did congress which Obama was a part of at the time.

3. Our govt. is stupid, yes, stupid. They never saved money in a rainy day fund. They have squandered our tax dollars on ridiculous things during the good times, and then when bad times hit and spending MUST be increased, then it is a big panic and our debt. skyrockets. We should have a large rainy day fund that we add too during good economic times, and use that money during recessionary times to spur growth. This makes logical sense and is fiscally responsible. I myself have money set aside just for hard times. The govt. should do the same.

4. Our economic system is based on never ending growth. Economists agree that for the foreseeable future this growth should continue, but logically we all know that never-ending growth is unsustainable in the long term. Just a point I wanted to bring up as I would love to discuss the implications of what this means for the world economy if growth were to stay flat indefinitely. Right now if that were to happen the world economic system would likely totally collapse.

file:///C:/Users/Shaun/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image003.gifI look forward to the badgering and attacks on me for this post! bring it on UM!

Sup Einstein? As for your opening you just summed up likely 98% of our elected officials. They run for office, at first, with us in mind and before too long they're working towards their own personal goals. That's why I believe in term limits to curb corruption. Maybe that's not a real solution but corruption does grow with time. At least a fresh new batch of hypothetically honest people every few years will limit the corruption imposed by old timers and incumbents. Maybe possibly I don't know.... As for the second part of your opening, I disagree. How many wise choices did Obama make with his stimulus? How many of those green companies did he blow billions on essentially gambling with our money?
You want the government to get money out into the economy? How about giving it back to whom it came from. I know I'd spend plenty in far more efficient ways than he did. For example let's assume that about half the country, 150 million people, is 18+ and a tax payer. I know those numbers are wrong but follow me. The first stimulus was $800 Billion and then some I believe. If you divide 800B/150M that comes to $5333.33 per person. That's a lot of money that could be spent somehow somewhere in far more economically boosting ways than how the elites and their pet pork projects spent it. They may well have just made a bonfire out of it. Just for the heck of it lets divide that by the actual population, approximately, which is 310,000,000. That comes to $2580.65 for every man, woman and child in all of America. Just think of how much good that would have done. Millions of people would have been able to get out of debts, pay bills, go out to eat, go to the doctor, buy TV's ect; all of which are capitalistic economy driving things. C'mon man, you don't think you could put $2500 to better use than a bunch of crooks who steal our money and give it to their friends or gamble it on wet dreams? Sure you could. Now times that by 310 million. Hell, think of the security blanket for all the kids whose parents would've had the good sense to put that into some type of compounding interest savings account for college or whatever they want when they turn 18. And for all the people who felt like blowing on something that wasn't helpful to them, so what? Now that money is somewhere in the market in somebody elses hands who is going to spend it somewhere else and so on unlike the black hole that Obama threw it into.
I have a question for everybody? Can you say for certain that you or anybody you know gained anything from the stimulus? And don't give me the administration bs that it saved the country from falling off a cliff. I heard that before and right now it's quite apparent that none of our elected officials really seem to care about falling off any fiscal cliff if avoiding it means they don't get their way.
Now for the underlying issues:

• I completely agree.
  
• Say what you will about George. He spent an awful lot of money. $4 trillion in 8 years and may be responsible for some debt during Obama’s reign of terror but certainly not all of it. Obama’s on the hook already for nearly $6 trillion in only 4 years. Completely insane and you want him to spend more? If Bush’s spending habit didn’t stop when he left office what makes you think it'd be any different for Obama’s successor. We are going to need the Scrooge in office when the Obama fiasco is over. Somebody so unwilling to spend money on anything but the bare necessities.
  
• I advocate a government that balances a budget the same way that we have to in order to get by. It makes freaking sense but many on the left will whine about how it’s different. Well the biggest difference is more bank accounts and balance sheets to keep track of and last I checked we hire plenty of people who are supposed to do just that but of course, they don’t.  Not only do they not but now the job is so hard that they don’t even want to worry about debts. Let’s just assume we have infinity dollars from now on. Yes, that’s what our elected officials are saying and the head of the treasury department of all people. Wouldn’t infinite $ just make his job irrelevant though? But you can’t advocate the government being fiscally responsible like you while at the same time advocate more spending when they’re broke. You can’t do that. Why? Because it leads to further debt.
  
• Well if it were to stay flat indefinitely it would surely be easier to figure out a plan for the future. Other than that, I’m depleted…

Holy smokes! Look what you made me do. That’s a long asss post. Welcome to UM!

Edited by -Mr_Fess-, 06 December 2012 - 10:30 PM.

[THE MATRIX]

Where were the Tea Partiers when Bush raise the debt limit more than a dozen times again? and still the Tea Partiers refuse to amswer. Where were the protests? Dead silence. Why because when a Republican is in office deficits don't matter to these HYPOCRITES!

Honestly this wouldn't be an issue if it were a white man was in White House.

Edited by THE MATRIX, 07 December 2012 - 01:11 AM.

[F3SS]

THE MATRIX, on 07 December 2012 - 01:07 AM, said:

Where were the Tea Partiers when Bush raise the debt limit more than times again? and still the Tea Partiers refuse to amswer. Where were the protests? Dead silence. Why because when a Republican is in office deficits don't matter to these HYPOCRITES!

Honestly this wouldn't be an issue if it were a white man was in White House.

I'm sure you have many websites to get to but you may want to cross this off of your weekly trolling list since you've pretty much said the exact same thing the last few times you've popped up from under the bridge.

[THE MATRIX]

-Mr_Fess-, on 07 December 2012 - 01:11 AM, said:

I'm sure you have many websites to get to but you may want to cross this off of your weekly trolling list since you've pretty much said the exact same thing the last few times you've popped up from under the bridge.

And yet you still keep avoiding and deflecting. the issue of why it was ok for Republicans to continue to raise the debt limits when they continue to claim they are the most fiscally responsible party.

[F3SS]

THE MATRIX, on 07 December 2012 - 01:16 AM, said:

And yet you still keep avoiding and deflecting. the issue of why it was ok for Republicans to continue to raise the debt limits when they continue to claim they are the most fiscally responsible party.

I never said it was. You just persistently say I did. No, you say everybody says that. It wasnt good, ok? Now you can never say again that I said otherwise. Now what TODAY'S problem is is your boys wanting to eliminate any boundaries for spending. Now your turn, what are your thoughts on that? And about avoiding and deflecting, you have been getting called out as an Internet troll more and more often lately and not just by me. So c'mon man, what's your deal?

[THE MATRIX]

-Mr_Fess-, on 07 December 2012 - 01:25 AM, said:

I never said it was. You just persistently say I did. No, you say everybody says that. It wasnt good, ok? Now you can never say again that I said otherwise. Now what TODAY'S problem is is your boys wanting to eliminate any boundaries for spending. Now your turn, what are your thoughts on that? And about avoiding and deflecting, you have been getting called out as an Internet troll more and more often lately and not just by me. So c'mon man, what's your deal?

Wow. I have been on this board for many years now and for some like you to resort making up lies is just sad.

[F3SS]

THE MATRIX, on 07 December 2012 - 01:30 AM, said:

Wow. I have been on this board for many years now and for some like you to resort making up lies is just sad.

No just speculation. Sorry man but your posts carry all the traits.
So, what of the current debt limit op?

Edited by -Mr_Fess-, 07 December 2012 - 01:33 AM.

[White Unicorn]

Einsteinium, on 06 December 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

Hello all

I just wanted to give my 2 cents to this thread. I do not think that the debt limit should be raised to infinity. I think that is a scary and extremely irresponsible idea and I do not think that idea would ever pass. Mr. Geithner's job would certainly be easier if he did not have to worry about debt. limits so I can see why he would want it from a personal standpoint, but is it good for the country? NO.

That being said, I think that Obama is right to keep spending high, it is simply a matter of economics. When growth slows in the economy the private sector will not be able to spend and make growth tick up, so therefore the govt. must step in and spend money to keep the economy going. Most economists agree that the great depression was made MUCH worse because the govt. cut back on spending when they should have done more deficit spending to boost economic growth when the private sector could not. The govt. should keep spending at a deficit until growth recovers, and then the govt. decreases spending and cuts back and lets private industry drive growth once it is able to do so.This is what govt. should do during recession.

The underlying issues here are:

1. The spending should be focused on building infrastructure- fixing our bridges/roads/etc. In my opinion the Obama admin has wasted much of the money they have spent and could have put it to much better use from an economic standpoing.

2. Bush Jr. Yes yes I know, the evil Mr. Bush . He has a LARGE role to play here. For you see. When the economy was booming and doing great under his admin, he should have been cutting back spending and starting to pay down the deficit. Had he done so we would have had less of a debt. when the great recession started, and thus the debt. would not have skyrocketed as it has under Obama. Bush spent hundreds of billions on the war in Iraq and he never put forth a plan to pay for this war. Neither did congress which Obama was a part of at the time.

3. Our govt. is stupid, yes, stupid. They never saved money in a rainy day fund. They have squandered our tax dollars on ridiculous things during the good times, and then when bad times hit and spending MUST be increased, then it is a big panic and our debt. skyrockets. We should have a large rainy day fund that we add too during good economic times, and use that money during recessionary times to spur growth. This makes logical sense and is fiscally responsible. I myself have money set aside just for hard times. The govt. should do the same.

4. Our economic system is based on never ending growth. Economists agree that for the foreseeable future this growth should continue, but logically we all know that never-ending growth is unsustainable in the long term. Just a point I wanted to bring up as I would love to discuss the implications of what this means for the world economy if growth were to stay flat indefinitely. Right now if that were to happen the world economic system would likely totally collapse.

I look forward to the badgering and attacks on me for this post! bring it on UM!

I agree with # 3 that's a good subject to bring up.  They are politicians seeking reelection and have to bring back the pork. Even social security in the beginning was supposed to be a trust fund like plan for workers but when it had a huge surplus it was changed to be used for other government spending.

You missed one point that people not close to economics and politics seem to miss ... we were very lucky not to go into a deep global depression and there was no way out but government spending. Recovery for the working class has to continue before trying to tackle the deficit this time around.

It has to be a steady process but that doesn't mean that the government shouldn't address cutting the waste and the fraud that exists in the systems. A lot of the spending went to the wrong places and didn't work but there wasn't much time to do it right and it was a crisis that never really existed in the same way before. I hope they make the right choices going forward and keep some aside as you said but I wouldn't ever bet on it.

No president or administration can come in and get things right even if they wanted to do it.  Adversity and misjudgement happens so we can only hope that the people in power are doing it for the best interest of the country as a whole beyond their term and personal motives. A good  leader will learn from his political mistakes and have better judgement later on after more experience with the existing systems and know how to deal with it better. The best presidents also need to surround themselves with the best people and advisors. Unfortunately this hasn't happened very often.  

Voters need to be more informed about who they vote for (character and motives are most important) and message boards should be a brain storming of things and discussion in order to bring out some ideas for solutions not name calling of different parties.  We are all Americans let's make it better and learn from past mistakes and get out of this recession! Let go of the idea of who or what party made the mess (they all did) let's try to discover ways to fix and take it to the right people who have the power to change it!


Unlimited deficit is definitely scary! but after inflation and increased earnings and revenue eventually comes into play even  those astronomical figures wouldn't seem that high. People in the past bought things for a penny that we now pay a couple of dollars for but it doesn't matter because we also earn more than 10 cents a day like they did. History tells the truth about deficits and the hard road out of depression and recessions. I think this was Geithner's take on the matter but unlimited would be stupid because of the guys in there doing the spending!   

Welcome to UM

Edited by White Unicorn, 07 December 2012 - 02:07 AM.

[THE MATRIX]

See i know many posters like you. When you don't like facts or get called out on something and have no answer it's typical to defame, slander, or make up lies about someone else.