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Doggerland


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#796    Abramelin

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 06:47 PM

//

I wanted to delete this thumbnail/attachment, but I cannot.

.

Attached Files


Edited by Abramelin, 28 October 2012 - 07:44 PM.


#797    Abramelin

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 07:23 PM

Ok, deleting thumbnails/attachments appears to be impossible.

++++


The Doggerlanders were members of the Maglemosian culture, but I found a possible new candidate:


The Hamburg culture or Hamburgian (13,500-11,100 BC) was a Late Upper Paleolithic culture of reindeer hunters in northwestern Europe during the last part of the Weichsel Glaciation beginning during the Bölling Interstatial. Sites are found close to the ice caps of the time.

The Hamburg Culture has been identified at many places, for example, the settlement at Meiendorf and Ahrensburg north of Hamburg, Germany. It is characterized by shouldered points and zinken tools, which were used as chisels when working with horns. In later periods tanged Havelte-type points appear, sometimes described as most of all a northwestern phenomenon. Notwithstanding the spread over a large geographical area in which a homogeneous development is not to be expected, the definition of the Hamburgian as a technological complex of its own has not recently been questioned.


http://en.wikipedia....Hamburg_culture

Posted Image
Posted Image


"Reindeer hunters".... not much like Plato's 'Atlantians', right?

Just for those who love to think Doggerland was Plato's Atlantis.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 28 October 2012 - 07:37 PM.


#798    Abramelin

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 01:53 PM

GDF SUEZ E&P UK Ltd
Cygnus Field Development
Environmental Statement

DECC Ref: D/4119/2011



10.4.2 Existing Baseline

The North Sea has not always been flooded. Over time, sea level has retreated backwards and
forwards leaving certain areas between the landmass now known as Britain and Europe exposed
and habitable by humans. One such area was Doggerland, which extended across the entire North
Sea up to the Norwegian trench. Although little is known about the geochronology and
palaeoenvironment of the Dogger Bank and SNS, reports suggest that the majority of this area
remained exposed and accessible throughout the Devensian Period (c48,000 – 12,000 BP) (DECC
2009c). As climate changed during the Holocene period (after c12,000 BP), the area is likely to
have represented a resource rich alluvial plain attractive to humans (DECC 2009c). As a result,
prehistoric landscapes and artefacts could be present all across the North Sea, although certain
areas are likely to be more interesting than others from an archaeological point of view.

To date, all recorded sites of retrieved prehistoric artefacts in the North Sea have been found in
areas of depression or areas of lower ground. For this reason, the extensive depression south of
the Dogger Bank and through the Outer Silver pit is of interest to archaeologists. Figure 10-10
shows that Doggerland covered the entire SNS and ancient river systems criss-crossed the region.
The project area is positioned in the middle of what would have been Doggerland, approximately
25km north of the Outer Silver Pit.

Figure 10-10: Speculative reconstruction of the river courses across the North Sea floor
Attached File  Doggerland_Cygnus.jpg   82.9K   4 downloads

Note: Reconstruction based at the time of the Late Glacial cold stadial when the area of dry land
was at a maximum. Source: After Coles and Rouillard cited in DTI (2002).

Two periods are of particular importance in terms of the potential for archaeological finds from the
Dogger Bank region:

The Mesolithic period (~12,000 – 10,000 years BP)
The Pleistocene period (1.8mya – 10,000 years BP)

During the Mesolithic period (also known as the Middle Stone Age), it is likely that humans
occupied the lower valleys in the Dogger Bank area, and may have used the higher ground for
hunting. Human artefacts, flints, spear-heads and mammal remains have all been dredged from
locations reported as the Dogger Bank (DTI 2002), believed to be from the upper surface of the
Bank. It is also possible that items could have originated and been preserved south of the Dogger
Bank where a vast lagoon existed from 8,000 – 7,000 years BP. Artefacts are also expected in the
area known as the Outer Silver Pit, which was a narrow channel connecting a shallow sea basin to
the open North Sea around 7,500 years BP.

The Dogger Bank region has also been important for Pleistocene fauna, with mammoth and
rhinoceros teeth trawled from the area. It is possible that further relicts could be recovered,
particularly the zone on the edge of Silver Pit and in the region which is now at a depth of
approximately 40m. Finding them would depend upon the thickness of the modern marine
sediments and due to the hostile conditions in terms of waves, wind and currents, searches for
prehistoric materials would only be undertaken in areas with considerable knowledge that
artefacts were present (DTI 2002).

http://www.gdfsuez.c...5/CygnusES1.pdf


#799    whitegandalf

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 03:49 AM

I have not read the whole thread but find the subject interesting.

It has been mentioned the lack of myths concerning a tsunami in the cultures around the north sea..

It would have been interesting to learn what the sami people myths say of the matter. They came to the area 12.000 bc and would have experienced all the zunamies first hand and had contact with doggerland.

Also the bock saga, finland tells supposely tells the continous story from the end of the iceage.

http://www.nomind.me/08/bocksaga.html

The oldest viking saga "voluspå" tells of at least 2 catastrophic floods. It tells of the land rising from the sea for the second time. A seremony after the flood where they remember the old gods on the exactly spot the old gods and ancesters had their capital city. They tell of gold tablets (boardgame or libary) still lies buried in the soil.

http://en.wikipedia..../wiki/Völuspá


The viking old old saga also tell of a second advanced tribe besides their own. They called them jotner and their chief was vavtrudne. They was as smart as they was and more powerfull in many ways.They were vikings biggest enemy and there was several of wars. They was all killed in the last battle. The bloodbath in the jotunheim (jotnes home) Odin traveled to Vavtrudne one time and they had a long conversation where odin tested his knowledge.

http://en.wikipedia....rg/wiki/Jötunn

http://en.wikipedia....i/Vafþrúðnir

Edited by whitegandalf, 30 October 2012 - 03:55 AM.


#800    Abramelin

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 12:33 PM

Hi Whitegandalf,

You said you did not yet read all of this thread, but if you did you'd know I did try to 'stretch' a couple of Nordic myths beyond recognition, but not very convincing.

The only myths/legends from around the North Sea that could hint at Dogger Island (the remnant of Doggerland, the later Dogger Bank) are about an Island of the Dead (Britain, Norway, Netherlands, Germany).

And I fabricated my own 'myth' based on the 'cup and circle' petroglyphs and labyrinths and the way stone- and woodhenges were being built in Britain and Europe, all that in connection with people witnessing a spiraling comet impacting into the North Sea and triggering the Storegga Slide of 6150 BC and the subsequent tsunami. But the mile thick submarine sediment layer west of Norway must have been very unstable already, and did not need an impacting comet to go on the move; a mild earthquake caused by post-glacial readjustment  would have been enough.

And the Bok Saga.... I think it's as fake as fake can be.

+++

EDIT:

I should add that many thousands of years after the 6150 BC tsunami and long after Doggerland or Dogger Island were gone, there were a couple of other tsunamis caused by Storegga slides, so any myth about a flood could have come from much more recent times.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 30 October 2012 - 12:39 PM.


#801    Abramelin

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 12:50 PM

Whitegandalf, I have posted a couple of summaries throughout this thread, and here's the latest one (May 2010, post 463, page 31):

http://www.unexplain...50#entry3417642


And to show you how some people want to force the date of Doggerland's destruction to a much more recent date to fit their pet theory, here another post (July 2010, post 509, page 34):

http://www.unexplain...95#entry3511978


#802    whitegandalf

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 03:33 PM

Thankyou Abramelin.

There is one saga that would perhaps cast light to the matter. To bad it was lost as much of the viking myths and sagaes was during the christian invasion.  Its the Hålogaland saga of North Norway. Its about a large advanced powerfull seafaring kingdom, different from the viking empire down south. The viking calls them jotner or giants. They had magic weapons, armors and items. According to the viking myths, this people was here before they temself came to scandinavia. Whenever a jotun was killed his weapon was burned and bent, then buried to hinder the magic of their weapons-

Bones of cow has been carbondated at 5000 bc in the area, only 1000years after the storegga slide. Do anyone know the earlist evidence of cow domestication around the north sea?

But the cod, other fish, whale, seal, birds and eggs was also on the food table. Perhaps some of the survivers of doggerland went there after their island sank. Or it was already part of the doggerland culture. This is also the area in norway when the oldest settlements houses was. Around 8000bc, making it 1500 years older than the orkney "house" ruins.

North europe largest chief house was also built here, 80-90m long, and he controlled the world largest food and trade source, the cod and stockfish. It coud feed tens of millions.

They were relative isolated, at least by land, but is thought to have some visits by the greeks. As they speak of an island where the sun shines 24 hours a day, and therefor puts it above the arctic circle.

They had sacred caves with cavepaintings all over their territory. the most famous was on their now 95% sunken island and capital røst. One of the surviving island/mountain is now called trenyken, and the cave is called hell with fantasitic cavepaintings with people with four fingers, as the gods had.

Posted Image

Edited by whitegandalf, 30 October 2012 - 03:58 PM.


#803    whitegandalf

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 03:53 PM

A bit off topic, but..

The comet you are talking about is probable the comet Encke which has long been the biggest threat to humanity and still is. 50% of all debree falling on earth are from Encke. Probably more if you only count the large pieces. Some says stonehedge was built to follow this comet. Every 1000-1500 years it creates a major catastrophe causing devestation, winters of several years, blackening of the sky and severe drought. Its a relative new comet that last 20-30.000 years have caused destruction and danger.

it is a very strange comet, very light and porous. Not common at all. Its either a pice of highland from a planet or lots of small stones held together by gravity. Even that 50% of all meteorites comes from this comet, not a single one has been identified of the 50.000 found so far. It is also belived to be behind the tunguska event. No fragments found there either. It is possible that these are the socalled missing sedimentary meteorites. (mars, mercury, venus,earth origin, ++) Basicly the same stones that are common on earth-

When passing by earth close it looks like a cross or swastica.

Edited by whitegandalf, 30 October 2012 - 04:02 PM.


#804    Abramelin

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 03:56 PM

Reply to your post 804:


The myths you mentioned are of relatively recent times, and they appear to be more like fairy tales than anything useful. I mean, giants, magic weapons and all that? All they found on the bottom of the North Sea points at hunter-gatherers.

The Doggerlanders were of course in contact with the countries around what is now the North Sea, it wasn't an isolated area. Artifacts found on the bottom of the North Sea resemble those found in Norway, Scotland and NW Europe, and even if you read the Wiki about Norway, you will read that people from Doggerland must have settled in SW Norway, or that they were one and the same people.

The Greeks (no, the Minoans) visited the North Sea area (NW Germany, west Denmark, Scandinavia) around 1700 and 1100 BC. Later again a visit by Pytheas. But all that has nothing much to do with Doggerland.

=

The next is also quite interesting: these people did not live like many would have thought:

In this article we will look in detail at a 7000-year-old farmhouse from Elsloo in the Netherlands. Built by some of the first farming communities, this kind of longhouse represents the beginnings of architecture in the Northern Europe. It is argued that it has left a heritage in architectural form and function that is still evident in the historical and contemporary built environment.

Posted Image

http://structuralarc...house-made.html




.

Edited by Abramelin, 30 October 2012 - 04:00 PM.


#805    cormac mac airt

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 04:57 PM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 30 October 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

Thankyou Abramelin.

There is one saga that would perhaps cast light to the matter. To bad it was lost as much of the viking myths and sagaes was during the christian invasion.  Its the Hålogaland saga of North Norway. Its about a large advanced powerfull seafaring kingdom, different from the viking empire down south. The viking calls them jotner or giants. They had magic weapons, armors and items. According to the viking myths, this people was here before they temself came to scandinavia. Whenever a jotun was killed his weapon was burned and bent, then buried to hinder the magic of their weapons-

Bones of cow has been carbondated at 5000 bc in the area, only 1000years after the storegga slide. Do anyone know the earlist evidence of cow domestication around the north sea?

But the cod, other fish, whale, seal, birds and eggs was also on the food table. Perhaps some of the survivers of doggerland went there after their island sank. Or it was already part of the doggerland culture. This is also the area in norway when the oldest settlements houses was. Around 8000bc, making it 1500 years older than the orkney "house" ruins.

North europe largest chief house was also built here, 80-90m long, and he controlled the world largest food and trade source, the cod and stockfish. It coud feed tens of millions.

They were relative isolated, at least by land, but is thought to have some visits by the greeks. As they speak of an island where the sun shines 24 hours a day, and therefor puts it above the arctic circle.

They had sacred caves with cavepaintings all over their territory. the most famous was on their now 95% sunken island and capital røst. One of the surviving island/mountain is now called trenyken, and the cave is called hell with fantasitic cavepaintings with people with four fingers, as the gods had.

Posted Image

Do you have a citation/s to support this claim? I ask because the oldest evidence of modern human activity in Sweden or Norway I've seen is the Dumpokjauratj Site, which dates to c.8630 +/- 85 BP (6630 +/- 85 BC). Obviouisly this is not 8000 BC. Nor do the oldest sites in Orkney such as Skara Brae, Knap of Howar, Ness of Brodgar or the Barnhouse Settlement date to c.6500 BC as you seem to imply. They all date to the 4th millenium BC.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#806    whitegandalf

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 04:58 PM

I agree that "voluspå" the creation myth of the vikings most likely is younger than doggerland, and probably mention the 2 later zunamies, not the oldest zunami and the sinking of doggerland. Espesially mention of the 75 kings.. unlesst these kings lived incredible long lifes.

The mention of magic weapons and items is not pure myth. It is tecnology, not understood. When the enemy have better weapons than they did, they called  it magic. First you have stone knifes, silver knifes, cobber knifes, then bronze swords, then super bronze swords (spain), then several of different stages of development of the iron sword. Today we have titanium and scandium that can makes sword longer, faster, lighter, harder, sharper and flexible. That one culture has an advantage over another in war has been the rule, not the exception in combat in conflicts, even today.

The Hålogaland kindom had acess to a metal only found naturally two places on earth (Hessdalen and Madagaskar mixed with 99,5% aliminium it makes the hardest material known today. A bulletproof west of this material can withstand 20 rounds of ak47 1m away. But if they experimented with this material is pure spekulation, but not impossible.

Edited by whitegandalf, 30 October 2012 - 05:03 PM.


#807    whitegandalf

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 05:12 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 30 October 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

Do you have a citation/s to support this claim? I ask because the oldest evidence of modern human activity in Sweden or Norway I've seen is the Dumpokjauratj Site, which dates to c.8630 +/- 85 BP (6630 +/- 85 BC). Obviouisly this is not 8000 BC. Nor do the oldest sites in Orkney such as Skara Brae, Knap of Howar, Ness of Brodgar or the Barnhouse Settlement date to c.6500 BC as you seem to imply. They all date to the 4th millenium BC.

cormac

Sorry, The oldest permanent settlements on Orkney was around 4000bc as you say, The first permant settlements in Norway was 7500 bc on the island vega, off the west coast called Åsgarden

Posted Image

The first human signs on orkney is 6800 bc, On Norway 9200bc

Edited by whitegandalf, 30 October 2012 - 05:43 PM.


#808    cormac mac airt

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 05:33 PM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 30 October 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

Sorry, TThe oldest permanent settlements on orkney was around 4000bc as you say, The first permant settlements in North Norway was 7500 bc on the island vega called Åsgarden


Quote

1. The starting point in Åkvika
2. Hammaren, approx. 5500 years old site with house ruins.
3. The natural harbour at the top of Middagsskaret.
4. The hunting and fishing station Middagskarheia 1, 9600 years old.
5. Middagskarheia 2, approx. 8,500 years old hunting and fishing station.
6. A plundered burial site from the Iron Age.
7. Åkvikskaret 1, approx. 5500 years old site with house ruins.

http://www.vega.komm...istorical-trail

2. 3500 BC, which is not 7500 BC.
4. Hunting and fishing stations are not the same as the permanent settlement houses you claimed.
5. 6500 BC hunting and fishing station, which again is not the same as the permanent settlement houses you claimed.
7. 3500 BC, which is again not 7500 BC.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 30 October 2012 - 05:34 PM.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#809    cormac mac airt

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 05:45 PM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 30 October 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

I agree that "voluspå" the creation myth of the vikings most likely is younger than doggerland, and probably mention the 2 later zunamies, not the oldest zunami and the sinking of doggerland. Espesially mention of the 75 kings.. unlesst these kings lived incredible long lifes.

The mention of magic weapons and items is not pure myth. It is tecnology, not understood. When the enemy have better weapons than they did, they called  it magic. First you have stone knifes, silver knifes, cobber knifes, then bronze swords, then super bronze swords (spain), then several of different stages of development of the iron sword. Today we have titanium and scandium that can makes sword longer, faster, lighter, harder, sharper and flexible. That one culture has an advantage over another in war has been the rule, not the exception in combat in conflicts, even today.

The Hålogaland kindom had acess to a metal only found naturally two places on earth (Hessdalen and Madagaskar mixed with 99,5% aliminium it makes the hardest material known today. A bulletproof west of this material can withstand 20 rounds of ak47 1m away. But if they experimented with this material is pure spekulation, but not impossible.

Your evidence for this is what, exactly?

No material, to include titanium, when added to 99.5% aluminum would make it the hardest material known today. Care to try again.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#810    Abramelin

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 06:03 PM

Whitegandalf,

I think I can speak for Cormac when I say we here all love links to sources.

That is not because we don't trust you or even think you are lying, but it's because we all want to know by what info you came to your conclusions about this or that.

We want to check your sources - pricks that we are, lol - and then see for ourselves what we can make of it, and then agree or disagree with your conclusions.

That's really all there is to it.


And here is my post about Norway/Doggerland/Wiki (December 6 2010, post 540, page 38):

http://www.unexplain...55#entry3687720

.

Edited by Abramelin, 30 October 2012 - 06:19 PM.





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