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Vedic culture and its modern relevance


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#46    The_Spartan

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:52 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 18 March 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

By verifying events mentioned in mythology and epics. The Indian epics like mahabharata and ramayana give detailed descriptions of the positions of various stars and heavenly bodies linked to important events which can be used as a reference to date the events. These epics especially the mahabharata talks about a ancient war and the results of the war and also of migrations etc.I have repeated this various time but once more wouldn't hurt eg- Kurrugan-Litereally translates in Sanskrit as 'soldiers of Kurru' which was the losing faction in the mahabharata and quite a few of the tribe were banished.
There are a quite a few precedents where myths are actually proven to be reality like the finding of troy,the saraswati river which was confirmed to be an actual river etc.


1. Some peer reviewed papers on these aracheo astornomical events correlated to the epics would be highly welcome.
2. Kurgan does not originate from Kuru. The word Kurgan originates from Russian wgich in turn dervies it from turkish

Quote

  • A type of tumulus or barrow characteristic of a culture located on the steppes of southern Russia about 5000 B.C. and later spreading to the Danube, northern Europe, and northern Iran from around 3500 B.C.
  • Kurgan
    a. The culture that produced these tumuli or barrows.
    b. A member of the people or peoples sharing this culture. The earliest Kurgans are considered by some to be speakers of Proto-Indo-European.
http://www.yourdictionary.com/kurgan
Its a surpirse that you, inspite of an indian, beating about on drums about the glory of vedas and all , do not take into account the true meaning of Kuru or kauravas.

For your education : kuru - was an Indo-Aryan Tribe, based aorund delhi, Haryana and uttar pradesh, Hastinapur being their kingdom. In the Epic Mahabharatha, the Kauravas, the sons od King Dhritarashtra are mentioned as Kurus, though pandavas, sons of Pandu, Dhritarashtra's brother are not mentioned as Kurus since they were exiled out of the the kuru kingdom.

Quote

The Kuru tribe was formed, in the Early Vedic period, as a result of the alliance and merger between the Bharata and Puru tribes.[6] They formed the first political center of the Vedic period, with its capital initially at Hastinapur, and were the center of political power during roughly 1200 to 800 BCE.[7] Towards the end of the Early Vedic period, the capital of the Kurus was transferred to Kaushambi, in the lower Doab, after Hastinapur was destroyed by floods [8] as well as because of upheavals in the Kuru family itself.[9][10]
Eventually, in the post Vedic period, the Kuru dynasty evolved into Kuru and Vats kingdoms, ruling over Upper Doab/Delhil/Haryana and lower Doab, respectively. The Vatsa branch of the Kuru dynasty further divided into Vats (Kaushambi) and Vats(Mathura) branches.[11]

please note that the Kurus didnt get exiled out of the Indian Sub Continent into the siberian wilderness.They lived, fought, split up and died in their own lands.

3. Most of the Vedas and other religuious texts ahve been edited over thorugh out the ancient times. Few Asuras (evil in the earlier editions) turn into Devas (in the newer editions). Try varuna, Mitra...they were asuras in the old and what are they now?? Devas of course.  Myths and fairy tales were constantly assimilated into the religious texts in the ancient times.

Dont buy it on the  **** that people now, in India are following "cultural paradigms" from ancient times. NO. NO.NO. Cutlure, My Foot!!
The Indian Woman who is to be respected is treated as objects of lust and rape.

Edited by The_Spartan, 18 March 2013 - 10:53 AM.

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#47    DieChecker

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:38 PM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 15 March 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

Again at whatever point of time you talk about you cannot attribute a geographical origin of a particular gene...you can only comment on whether a particular gene was present in a particular geographic location at a given point of time. Migrations cannnot be efficiently predicted by genetic data alone.
One point I found interesting relating to the R1a haplogroup and the Kurgan people, is that the various R1a lines found in Europe and the Middle East and China, all seem to be decended from one group. But in India they have many, many more lines. This would indicate that the R1a did begin somewhere in or near India, but it also says that those who spread it into Europe were probably from a single tribe/group, since if they had been a homogenous Indian group, the other older, and the more varied lines would show up in the genetic historical record.

The thinking in this scenario would then be that the Proto-Indo-Europeans broke off from their original R1 group quite a long time before the rapid spread of Indo-European languages. Perhaps even generating their own language, which came to be the Proto-Indo-European language.

Quote

In a 2011 genetic study "confirmed the existence of a general principal component cline stretching from Europe to south India." They concluded that "the Indian populations are characterized by two major ancestry components, one of which is spread at comparable frequency and haplotype diversity in populations of South and West Asia and the Caucasus. The second component is more restricted to South Asia and accounts for more than 50% of the ancestry in Indian populations. Haplotype diversity associated with these South Asian ancestry components is significantly higher than that of the components dominating the West Eurasian ancestry palette. Modeling of the observed haplotype diversities suggests that both Indian ancestry components are older than the purported Indo-Aryan invasion 3,500 YBP".
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Out_of_india

Another interesting thing is that even as far back as the Vedic age, the language spoke in India had Dravidian words and phrases, however such Dravidian influences are absent from all other Indo-European languages.

Quote

The Indic languages show the influence of the Dravidian and Munda language families. No other branch of Indo-European does. If the Indo-European homeland had been located in India, then the Indo-European languages should have shown some influence from Dravidian and Munda.

One other thing. Look at R1b, which is a brother line of R1a. It is today most heavily represented in Western Europe (Spain, England and France), Camaroon in central Africa and the Bashkiers region of Russia. None of which is even close to the area just north and west of India where R1 is assumed to have started. If R1a is from India, then R1b would be too. But, the modern map would seem to indicate otherwise, yes?
Posted Image

Edited by DieChecker, 18 March 2013 - 08:40 PM.

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#48    cormac mac airt

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:12 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 18 March 2013 - 08:38 PM, said:

One point I found interesting relating to the R1a haplogroup and the Kurgan people, is that the various R1a lines found in Europe and the Middle East and China, all seem to be decended from one group. But in India they have many, many more lines. This would indicate that the R1a did begin somewhere in or near India, but it also says that those who spread it into Europe were probably from a single tribe/group, since if they had been a homogenous Indian group, the other older, and the more varied lines would show up in the genetic historical record.

The thinking in this scenario would then be that the Proto-Indo-Europeans broke off from their original R1 group quite a long time before the rapid spread of Indo-European languages. Perhaps even generating their own language, which came to be the Proto-Indo-European language.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Out_of_india

Another interesting thing is that even as far back as the Vedic age, the language spoke in India had Dravidian words and phrases, however such Dravidian influences are absent from all other Indo-European languages.


One other thing. Look at R1b, which is a brother line of R1a. It is today most heavily represented in Western Europe (Spain, England and France), Camaroon in central Africa and the Bashkiers region of Russia. None of which is even close to the area just north and west of India where R1 is assumed to have started. If R1a is from India, then R1b would be too. But, the modern map would seem to indicate otherwise, yes?
Posted Image

Actually no, DieChecker. And this is where such maps can become conveniently misleading. While the groups with the higher percentages (deep purple) can be seen in western Europe this is NOT the parent group R1b itself. These are actually subgroups comprised primarily of R1b1a2a1a1b (Spain c.6630 BC) and R1b1a2a1a1b4/R-L21 (England/Ireland c.6514 BC). Even the subgroup that can be associated with an entrance into Europe is not the parent group, but is R1b1a2/R-M269 from Anatolia c.7000 BC. Also, the one item from your wiki link that continuously gets glossed over in favor of an alleged AIT is this, which still remains true:

Quote

Modeling of the observed haplotype diversities suggests that both Indian ancestry components are older than the purported Indo-Aryan invasion 3,500 YBP.

In short the actual studies concerning the prior origin of R1a or R1b make the AIT a moot point.

cormac

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#49    DieChecker

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:15 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 18 March 2013 - 09:12 PM, said:

Actually no, DieChecker. And this is where such maps can become conveniently misleading. While the groups with the higher percentages (deep purple) can be seen in western Europe this is NOT the parent group R1b itself. These are actually subgroups comprised primarily of R1b1a2a1a1b (Spain c.6630 BC) and R1b1a2a1a1b4/R-L21 (England/Ireland c.6514 BC). Even the subgroup that can be associated with an entrance into Europe is not the parent group, but is R1b1a2/R-M269 from Anatolia c.7000 BC. Also, the one item from your wiki link that continuously gets glossed over in favor of an alleged AIT is this, which still remains true:



In short the actual studies concerning the prior origin of R1a or R1b make the AIT a moot point.

cormac
Ok. But you see where I was going, right? The density of a populations haplogroup in modern populations has little to do with where it originated.

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#50    cormac mac airt

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:24 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 18 March 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

Ok. But you see where I was going, right? The density of a populations haplogroup in modern populations has little to do with where it originated.

Yes I see where you were going. Unfortunately many who read such maps will not understand in what context "R1b"* is being used and will likely assume it's the parent group when it quite often isn't. But then again such studies were written by professionals for professionals so they're all on the same page, as it were, anyway.

* or some other mentioned subgroup.

cormac

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#51    Everdred

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:47 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 18 March 2013 - 08:38 PM, said:

One other thing. Look at R1b, which is a brother line of R1a. It is today most heavily represented in Western Europe (Spain, England and France), Camaroon in central Africa and the Bashkiers region of Russia. None of which is even close to the area just north and west of India where R1 is assumed to have started. If R1a is from India, then R1b would be too. But, the modern map would seem to indicate otherwise, yes?

I think it's safe to say that R1 started in Southwest Asia (e.g. Anatolia or Mesopotamia) rather than further East near India.  An estimate for its time of origin is c. 18.5kya, though that should probably be revised to 30+kya.  I think it's likely that R1b and R1a both originated in this same general area, with R1b perhaps in western or central Anatolia, and R1a perhaps to the east in the Southern Caucasus area.

View Postcormac mac airt, on 18 March 2013 - 09:12 PM, said:

Also, the one item from your wiki link that continuously gets glossed over in favor of an alleged AIT is this, which still remains true:


In short the actual studies concerning the prior origin of R1a or R1b make the AIT a moot point.

cormac

I'm not sure why you've highlighted that quote.  All it says is that the study didn't find genetic evidence for the Aryan migration theory into India, since both principal ancestry components predate the hypothesized invasion (and quite significantly, at that).




On another note, I noticed this map on wikipedia:

Posted Image

The previous map I posted showed the distribution of R1a1a, while this shows a specific subclade.  Note, however, that the distribution of this subclade corresponds very strongly with the western concentration of the distribution of R1a1a, but fails to show any of the subclade in Iran, Turkmenistan, or Kazakhstan.  I'm not seeing any specific data on subclades in India, though.  But given the distribution, it seems likely that R1a1a itself arose in some central area, perhaps the Southern Caucasus, and then some of these people migrated northward into the Pontic steppes, later gaining the above M-458 mutation, while the other part moved eastward into Iran, Pakistan, and India, presumably undergoing their own Y-DNA mutations.

I'm not sure how exactly that would affect the IE origins, though.

Edited by Everdred, 18 March 2013 - 10:48 PM.


#52    cormac mac airt

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:14 AM

View PostEverdred, on 18 March 2013 - 10:47 PM, said:

I think it's safe to say that R1 started in Southwest Asia (e.g. Anatolia or Mesopotamia) rather than further East near India.  An estimate for its time of origin is c. 18.5kya, though that should probably be revised to 30+kya.  I think it's likely that R1b and R1a both originated in this same general area, with R1b perhaps in western or central Anatolia, and R1a perhaps to the east in the Southern Caucasus area.



I'm not sure why you've highlighted that quote.  All it says is that the study didn't find genetic evidence for the Aryan migration theory into India, since both principal ancestry components predate the hypothesized invasion (and quite significantly, at that).




On another note, I noticed this map on wikipedia:

Posted Image

The previous map I posted showed the distribution of R1a1a, while this shows a specific subclade.  Note, however, that the distribution of this subclade corresponds very strongly with the western concentration of the distribution of R1a1a, but fails to show any of the subclade in Iran, Turkmenistan, or Kazakhstan.  I'm not seeing any specific data on subclades in India, though.  But given the distribution, it seems likely that R1a1a itself arose in some central area, perhaps the Southern Caucasus, and then some of these people migrated northward into the Pontic steppes, later gaining the above M-458 mutation, while the other part moved eastward into Iran, Pakistan, and India, presumably undergoing their own Y-DNA mutations.

I'm not sure how exactly that would affect the IE origins, though.

That's just it, they predate it. And since the two groups are, more often than not, specifically claimed to originate in or near India by the AIT crowd the quote invalidates that claim. To me it's the difference between claiming R1a or R1b as opposed to, say, R1a1a1g or R1b1a2a1a1b. It's the level of specificity that I question coming from the AIT proponents, even if they were somewhat correct, which they haven't shown themselves to be.

cormac

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#53    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 09:28 AM

View PostThe_Spartan, on 18 March 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

1. Some peer reviewed papers on these aracheo astornomical events correlated to the epics would be highly welcome.
2. Kurgan does not originate from Kuru. The word Kurgan originates from Russian wgich in turn dervies it from turkish
http://www.yourdictionary.com/kurgan
Its a surpirse that you, inspite of an indian, beating about on drums about the glory of vedas and all , do not take into account the true meaning of Kuru or kauravas.

For your education : kuru - was an Indo-Aryan Tribe, based aorund delhi, Haryana and uttar pradesh, Hastinapur being their kingdom. In the Epic Mahabharatha, the Kauravas, the sons od King Dhritarashtra are mentioned as Kurus, though pandavas, sons of Pandu, Dhritarashtra's brother are not mentioned as Kurus since they were exiled out of the the kuru kingdom.



please note that the Kurus didnt get exiled out of the Indian Sub Continent into the siberian wilderness.They lived, fought, split up and died in their own lands.

3. Most of the Vedas and other religuious texts ahve been edited over thorugh out the ancient times. Few Asuras (evil in the earlier editions) turn into Devas (in the newer editions). Try varuna, Mitra...they were asuras in the old and what are they now?? Devas of course.  Myths and fairy tales were constantly assimilated into the religious texts in the ancient times.

Dont buy it on the  **** that people now, in India are following "cultural paradigms" from ancient times. NO. NO.NO. Cutlure, My Foot!!
The Indian Woman who is to be respected is treated as objects of lust and rape.
Though through your entire post i came against scarcely little that goes against what i said myself.
1)Kurrus were the defeated party and banishment of entire tribes was a common practice.

2)There is no argument on the definition of the term Kurru/Kauravas

The term Kaurava (Sanskrit: कौरव) is a Sanskrit term, that means the descendants of Kuru, a legendary king who is the ancestor of many of the characters of theMahābhārata.
The term is used in the Mahābhārata with two meanings:
  • The wider meaning, to represent all the descendants of Kuru. This meaning, which includes the Pandava brothers, is often used in the earlier parts of popular renditions of the Mahābhārata.
  • The narrower but more common meaning, to represent the elder line of the descendants of King Kuru. This restricts it to the children of King Dhritarashtra, as his line is the older line of descent from Kuru. It excludes the children of the younger brother Pandu, who founds his own line, the Pandava.
Hence the reason that Kurru-Gan/Gana literally translates to soldiers/subjects of Kurru.

3)Are you suggesting that every last soldier who fought from the Kurru side died in the battle..lol. Banishment was a common practice for the losing side,the pandavas were subjected to the same because they lost the gambling match and as a form of political vendetta.

4) There were deities that were added and or raised to prominence or fell from grace through the Vedas,it was a living changing mythology unlike the other prophetic religions or religions of the book.There is no single founder of Hinduism hence the reason that it is known as Sanatana Dharma or the eternal religion as there is no unilateral code that the religion follows.

5)Ancient Indian women before the advent of the Mughal raiders and dacoits used to roam barechested,kamasutra and other forms of sexual arts were patronised and courtesans were respected,the incidents of rape and the image of the timid Indian women with a veil/ghongat on her head is pretty much a recent reduction of the position of women in Indian society. Everyone who is born in India doesn't adhere to tenets of Hinduism,so some of them are bound to be rapists and thugs. Infact compared to the people of the book who are the main culprits in the reduction of the social status of the women should be held responsible for the current condition of women through the globe. For eg- Women can't become a pope,women can't go to the Masjid to pray and they have wear a veil etc.
There are only a few religions or pantheons that currently exist that give the same place to a woman and a man and Hinduism is one of them...most other major religions of the world are patriarchial and many openly designate women as a labrynth to hellfire.


#54    The_Spartan

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 10:28 AM

1. Harsh flogging the Kurgan Donkey to death

Quote

I have repeated this various time but once more wouldn't hurt eg- Kurrugan-Litereally translates in Sanskrit as 'soldiers of Kurru' which was the losing faction in the mahabharata and quite a few of the tribe were banished.
Well, repeating that "the moon is made of green cheese' umpteen times wont make it so.

I gave you the link to the etymological reasoning and meaning of the word KURGAN.
What you are doing is very typical of a Pseudo-whatever-ian or a fringie. When provided with links and matter that would require them to provide answers or further debate or even put their own theories on a weak stance, try the easiest route out - beat around the bush, carefully skirting the core issue.
Why not discuss the origin of the word - KURGAN.

It is stated substantially theat the word Kurgan evolved from the combination of Ghur and Khana literaaly meaning "Grave House" in Iranian. The word was borrowed into Turkish and into Scythian language and into tartar languages.
The culture which made these grave mounds or tumuli were predominant in Eastern Europe.

Lets see how does telling oneself or others a like 1000 times, make it a fact. After all it will still be a lie or piece of wishful thinking.

2. Hinduism is of course not of a single origin or founder. As i have stated in my various post in UM, Hinduism is an amalagamation of various religions that existed in the indian subcontient. Hinduism changed form many times over. it never had  a "SINGLE" form that continued from antiquty to ther present. So the statement that Hindusim has archaelogical and cultural continuity is quite misleading. What excatly do you mean by archaeological continuity? dont other civilzations have archaeological continuity? The example of the gods was  one of the few that Hinduism was edited over the ages.


3. Top knotch bigotry!!

Quote

Ancient Indian women before the advent of the Mughal raiders and dacoits used to roam barechested,kamasutra and other forms of sexual arts were patronised and courtesans were respected,the incidents of rape and the image of the timid Indian women with a veil/ghongat on her head is pretty much a recent reduction of the position of women in Indian society. Everyone who is born in India doesn't adhere to tenets of Hinduism,so some of them are bound to be rapists and thugs. Infact compared to the people of the book who are the main culprits in the reduction of the social status of the women should be held responsible for the current condition of women through the globe. For eg- Women can't become a pope,women can't go to the Masjid to pray and they have wear a veil etc.
There are only a few religions or pantheons that currently exist that give the same place to a woman and a man and Hinduism is one of them...most other major religions of the world are patriarchial and many openly designate women as a labrynth to hellfire.
The above makes you a first rate Bigot. period.

I am not a Hindu. I am a human. So  according to your statment, does that give a probablilty that i may turn into  a rapist or a thug.
Watch your words carefully, harsh.
Have you ever gone to the villages and country sides of india, Harsh??
HAve you  seen the Lifestyle of Women over there, be it Hindu , Christian, or Muslim in the villages?? Huh?
I doubt it. You might have , for all things sure, born with a silver spoon, in some goddamn mansion in a metropolitaion city, a guy who doesnt know what india is.
Women, were and are still treat as second rated in those areas, irrespective of their religion.
And here comes a pseudo- mera bharath mahan guy beating on his drums.
get a life, will you.

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#55    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 08:22 AM

View PostThe_Spartan, on 19 March 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

1. Harsh flogging the Kurgan Donkey to death

Well, repeating that "the moon is made of green cheese' umpteen times wont make it so.

I gave you the link to the etymological reasoning and meaning of the word KURGAN.
What you are doing is very typical of a Pseudo-whatever-ian or a fringie. When provided with links and matter that would require them to provide answers or further debate or even put their own theories on a weak stance, try the easiest route out - beat around the bush, carefully skirting the core issue.
Why not discuss the origin of the word - KURGAN.

It is stated substantially theat the word Kurgan evolved from the combination of Ghur and Khana literaaly meaning "Grave House" in Iranian. The word was borrowed into Turkish and into Scythian language and into tartar languages.
The culture which made these grave mounds or tumuli were predominant in Eastern Europe.

Lets see how does telling oneself or others a like 1000 times, make it a fact. After all it will still be a lie or piece of wishful thinking.

2. Hinduism is of course not of a single origin or founder. As i have stated in my various post in UM, Hinduism is an amalagamation of various religions that existed in the indian subcontient. Hinduism changed form many times over. it never had  a "SINGLE" form that continued from antiquty to ther present. So the statement that Hindusim has archaelogical and cultural continuity is quite misleading. What excatly do you mean by archaeological continuity? dont other civilzations have archaeological continuity? The example of the gods was  one of the few that Hinduism was edited over the ages.


3. Top knotch bigotry!!


The above makes you a first rate Bigot. period.

I am not a Hindu. I am a human. So  according to your statment, does that give a probablilty that i may turn into  a rapist or a thug.
Watch your words carefully, harsh.
Have you ever gone to the villages and country sides of india, Harsh??
HAve you  seen the Lifestyle of Women over there, be it Hindu , Christian, or Muslim in the villages?? Huh?
I doubt it. You might have , for all things sure, born with a silver spoon, in some goddamn mansion in a metropolitaion city, a guy who doesnt know what india is.
Women, were and are still treat as second rated in those areas, irrespective of their religion.
And here comes a pseudo- mera bharath mahan guy beating on his drums.
get a life, will you.

1.First we shall deal will the accusation of bigotry and who is the bigger Bigot.
Spartan-
"Dont buy it on the  **** that people now, in India are following "cultural paradigms" from ancient times. NO. NO.NO. Cutlure, My Foot!!
The Indian Woman who is to be respected is treated as objects of lust and rape."


After stating this you have the kahones to call me a bigot lol.

Secondly i have gone and spent a lot of time in Villages etc and i freely interact with people from all walks of life,how does that change anything. If you are talking about rural societies in India,you have probably seen only the villages that are suffering from the psuedosickular rule of the Congress (who are a bunch of motherless politicians lead by the fake Nehru Gandhi family of conmen/women and illiterates).
You have probably not seen the villages that are independent, self sufficient in every way and have not fallen prey to consumerism like the rest of the world.
Any person living in these villages or countryside will be able to show you what actual hard and sincere work they are capable of and what is meaning of actual value addition. These are people that till the land and work like donkeys so the rest of the world can eat.DO not underestimate them or think of them as backward,they are the true identity of India since time immemorial and are no more lost as they once used to be under the repressive Congress rule. You should learn from these villages 'want not waste not',just because you can **** in an air-conditioned toilet doesn't mean that you are more advanced then these villagers.
I have seen the women in villages and most of them are much more fulfilled and happy compared to lost souls living in cities having all the so called comforts of modern technology,but that again is a different debate.
The reason why i talked about ancient Indian women roaming barechested and about Kamasutra is to highlight how open the Indian society was and the pantheon itself shows that man and women were held in equal regard,it was not until the raping and pillaging muslim barbarians started attacking Hindus in the Indian subcontinent that women were expected to not roam freely and keep close to their households.
For countless years these so called Muslim noble men attacked and pillaged India and engaged in Kidnapping and Raping the Kufr Hindu women which was completely Legal according to their Koran.The ghongat that Indian women wear now is like a equivalent of the Muslim Veil or Burkha since the Mughal barbarians followed the Sharia and any non-muslim women who had her face exposed could be raped by the muslims without any consequences.

Though your anti Indian rants definitely don't make you a Bigot.
BTW-women are treated as second rate citizens by the people of the book. Repression of women and treating women as second rate citizens was sadly a disease that few Indians caught from the western imperial chauvanists.

2. I have already talked about my interpretation of the word 'Kurrugan',so you can hold on to whatever suits your fancy.

3. I never said that if you are not a Hindu then you would surely be a rapist or criminal...lol. But i guess that your delicate sensitivities got assaulted because of your own confusion. All i stated was that there is difference between a person born in a Hindu family and a person who actually adheres to the Hindu value system,any person who truely adheres to the Hindu value system will not be a rapist.

4. The accusation of being a patriot is proudly accepted by me,but then i also believe the Hindu concept of 'Vasudeva Kutumbah' or in plain words- entire humanity is one family or a global community.


#56    Clobhair-cean

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 08:44 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 20 March 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

3. I never said that if you are not a Hindu then you would surely be a rapist or criminal...lol. But i guess that your delicate sensitivities got assaulted because of your own confusion. All i stated was that there is difference between a person born in a Hindu family and a person who actually adheres to the Hindu value system,any person who truely adheres to the Hindu value system will not be a rapist.

Nice use of the No True Scotsman fallacy. :tsu:


#57    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 08:46 AM

View PostClobhair-cean, on 20 March 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

Nice use of the No True Scotsman fallacy. :tsu:
Ok,though i got called a bigot for using a fallacy...lol.


#58    The_Spartan

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 09:35 AM

Quote

Ancient Indian women before the advent of the Mughal raiders and dacoits used to roam barechested,kamasutra and other forms of sexual arts were patronised and courtesans were respected,the incidents of rape and the image of the timid Indian women with a veil/ghongat on her head is pretty much a recent reduction of the position of women in Indian society. Everyone who is born in India doesn't adhere to tenets of Hinduism,so some of them are bound to be rapists and thugs. Infact compared to the people of the book who are the main culprits in the reduction of the social status of the women should be held responsible for the current condition of women through the globe. For eg- Women can't become a pope,women can't go to the Masjid to pray and they have wear a veil etc.
There are only a few religions or pantheons that currently exist that give the same place to a woman and a man and Hinduism is one of them...most other major religions of the world are patriarchial and many openly designate women as a labrynth to hellfire.

So, by your convoluted reasoning -  any indian who is not ahindu has probability to turn into rapists and thugs , right??
So, of what religion were those henious criminals who raped a girl on a bus in delhi?? care to elucidate?

I am an Indian. So by your logic, i can be a rapist and thugh, huh?
Watch what you  say, Harsh.

get abck to you on the rest - am at work right now.

Once again - watch what you say.

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#59    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 12:21 PM

View PostThe_Spartan, on 20 March 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

So, by your convoluted reasoning -  any indian who is not ahindu has probability to turn into rapists and thugs , right??
So, of what religion were those henious criminals who raped a girl on a bus in delhi?? care to elucidate?

I am an Indian. So by your logic, i can be a rapist and thugh, huh?
Watch what you  say, Harsh.

get abck to you on the rest - am at work right now.

Once again - watch what you say.
Lol...not only me but everyone in this community can watch what i am saying. And yes there is a chance for anyone to be a rapist and a thug.
The thugs who raped the girl on the bus or any other rapist are not human beings......if they do not qualify as humans how could you attribute any religion to them?.I suppose only humans can have or follow 'a' particular religion.
Again you confuse people who are born into a Hindu family and people who are Hindu.And yes i will reassert that those people who have embraced the Hindu value system completely will not indulge in rape (of course probability of any human being including you or me to make a mistake is never zero but in the case a Hindu ever commits such a crime he will by defunct seize to be a Hindu).A Hindu rapist is like a catholic pope with 5 children or a buddhist warlord or a illiterate doctor....etc.

Though i would not defend the heinous act of 'rape' in any form or manner,but at the same time i would also like to point out to you that rapes happen in all the countries in the world. If there is a rape case in the USA or the place that you currently reside in........i cannot give a blanket statement that none of the US citizens respect women,or in the later case that 'spartan doesn't respect women' because there are rape cases happening in the country he stays in.
You seem to represent a pessimist Indian who left the country for fairer pastures,but just cause you left India it doesn't give you the right to criticise those who stayed back. Many things have changed and are changing.So stop being a BIGOT.

P.S.-There are incidents in the US (considered to be the best country in the world) where a 20 year old has shot quite a few school children and his own mother.When it comes to the topic of Women rights the worst offenders are Muslim countries especially the Middle east where Sharia is practiced. So before we criticize other countries especially in context to women rights then one should never forget to check what is happening in their own neighbourhood.
Crimes happen in all countries but i fell nothing but contempt for any country which has legislations to legitimize crimes against women by imposing mundane laws like sharia and by considering the two women witnesses to be equal to one male witness etc as a State.

Edited by Harsh86_Patel, 20 March 2013 - 12:34 PM.


#60    kmt_sesh

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 02:11 AM

There need be no further discussion of rape or value judgements based on one's culture. Every culture has its flaws and its deviants—every single one.

But this is not the platform for discussing such issues, nor are such issues relevant to the topic of this discussion. Let it end.

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