After Jesus ~ The First Christians

[GoddessWhispers]

CNN Official Link

CNN examines Christianity in pre-Christmas documentary

12/19/2006

Catholic Online (www.catholic.org)

ATLANTA, Ga. (Catholic Online) – The tumultuous early years of Christianity is the focus of a pre-Christmas two-hour documentary airing by CNN.

In the days immediately before and up to Christmas day, the television special, “CNN Presents: After Jesus – The First Christians,” examines how the earliest Christians spread their message, despite infighting over the faith and violent persecution by Rome, and the aid of Christianity’s legalization by the Roman Empire.

Narrated by Liam Neeson, the documentary premieres on Wednesday, Dec. 20 at 7 p.m., and replays on Dec. 22 at 10 p.m., Dec. 23 at 1 a.m. and 8 p.m., Dec. 24, at 1 a.m. and 8 p.m., and Dec. 25 at 12 a.m. All times Eastern.

“CNN was able to leverage its extensive resources to tell the story behind the greatest story ever told,” said Mark Nelson, vice president and senior executive producer for CNN Productions. “The fundamental themes of challenge and resolution, power and struggle that we explore continue to be relevant in modern times.”

CNN examined archaeological evidence and spoke with the most renowned authorities on the ancient church to answer the question at the heart of the story: How did Jesus, a wandering rabbi, and his illiterate followers triumph over Roman persecution and establish a worldwide faith?

In telling this remarkable tale, viewers may be surprised to learn that followers of some early branches of Christianity believed in more than one god, that there were many more gospels than those included in the New Testament, and that Christmas was originally a springtime celebration.

There was also a group of Christians – the Gnostics – who believed that man’s existence on Earth was a mistake and that salvation required a mystical experience of self-discovery and self-realization. They wrote their own gospels, and their power struggle with the orthodox Christians was a threat to the new faith.

“After Jesus” also examines the biblical history of Israel, the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem and the events during the defining Council of Nicaea. (Continues)

[Dr. Strangelove]

Even the very word "Christianity" is misleading. There was only one Christian, and he died on the cross. - Nietzsche

Sums up my thoughts...

[GoddessWhispers]

Nietzsche?

And yet the show goes on and millions, across the globe, stand as evidence. That's one mans opinion.

[thaphantum]

Even the very word "Christianity" is misleading. There was only one Christian, and he died on the cross. - Nietzsche

Sums up my thoughts...

just out of curiosity... what do you think the word Chritian means?

based on Nietzshce's quote... i have the feeling that he thinks Christ was a last name...

[Dr. Strangelove]

just out of curiosity... what do you think the word Chritian means?

based on Nietzshce's quote... i have the feeling that he thinks Christ was a last name...

...*sighs*

Not quite. He was making a point, or atleast, trying to. The only christian to ever live, died on the cross. Think about that. He's basically saying "Anyone who calls themself a christian, that is not Jesus, is a liar".

[GoddessWhispers]

...*sighs*

Not quite. He was making a point, or at least, trying to. The only christian to ever live, died on the cross. Think about that. He's basically saying "Anyone who calls themselves a christian, that is not Jesus, is a liar".

In truth, Nietzsche was correct. As has been said in these forums before, jesus didn't come to start a religion he came to destroy religion. It was after his death that believers assumed the title, christian. In fact, Nietzsche often referred to jesus as "The Nazarene" , in his other writings.

This excerpt expounds on the "first christian" POV, I think.

The first Christian. All the world still believes in the authorship of the "Holy Spirit" or is at least still affected by this belief: when one opens the Bible one does so for "edification."... That it also tells the story of one of the most ambitious and obtrusive of souls, of a head as superstitious as it was crafty, the story of the apostle Paul--who knows this , except a few scholars? Without this strange story, however, without the confusions and storms of such a head, such a soul, there would be no Christianity...

That the ship of Christianity threw overboard a good deal of its Jewish ballast, that it went, and was able to go, among the pagans--that was due to this one man, a very tortured, very pitiful, very unpleasant man, unpleasant even to himself. He suffered from a fixed idea--or more precisely, from a fixed, ever-present, never-resting question: what about the Jewish law? and particularly the fulfillment of this law? In his youth he had himself wanted to satisfy it, with a ravenous hunger for this highest distinction which the Jews could conceive - this people who were propelled higher than any other people by the imagination of the ethically sublime, and who alone succeeded in creating a holy god together with the idea of sin as a transgression against this holiness. Paul became the fanatical defender of this god and his law and guardian of his honor; at the same time, in the struggle against the transgressors and doubters, lying in wait for them, he became increasingly harsh and evilly disposed towards them, and inclined towards the most extreme punishments. And now he found that--hot-headed, sensual, melancholy, malignant in his hatred as he was-- he was himself unable to fulfill the law; indeed, and this seemed strangest to him, his extravagant lust to domineer provoked him continually to transgress the law, and he had to yield to this thorn.

Is it really his "carnal nature" that makes him transgress again and again? And not rather, as he himself suspected later, behind it the law itself, which must constantly prove itself unfulfillable and which lures him to transgression with irresistable charm? But at that time he did not yet have this way out. He had much on his conscience - he hints at hostility, murder, magic, idolatry, lewdness, drunkenness, and pleasure in dissolute carousing - and... moments came when he said to himself:"It is all in vain; the torture of the unfulfilled law cannot be overcome."... The law was the cross to which he felt himself nailed: how he hated it! how he searched for some means to annihilate it--not to fulfill it any more himself!

And finally the saving thought struck him,... "It is unreasonable to persecute this Jesus! Here after all is the way out; here is the perfect revenge; here and nowhere else I have and hold the annihilator of the law!"... Until then the ignominious death had seemed to him the chief argument against the Messianic claim of which the new doctrine spoke: but what if it were necessary to get rid of the law?

The tremendous consequences of this idea, of this solution of the riddle, spin before his eyes; at one stroke he becomes the happiest man; the destiny of the Jews--no, of all men--seems to him to be tied to this idea, to this second of its sudden illumination; he has the thought of thoughts, the key of keys, the light of lights; it is around him that all history must revolve henceforth. For he is from now on the teacher of the annihilation of the law...

This is the first Christian, the inventor of Christianity. Until then there were only a few Jewish sectarians.

from Nietzsche's Daybreak, s.68, Walter Kaufmann transl.

In any event, I have my DVR set to record the CNN special. Maybe we can discuss it's particulars after it airs.

Edited April 6, 2007 by GoddessWhispers

[seanph]

Thanks for the heads-up, GW.

Until then there were only a few Jewish sectarians.

Nailed it! This was a sectarian movement within Judaism--one of dozens. Jesus never had any intentions of starting a new religion. He was a devout Jew--as were his disciples--until the very end. As for the term "Christian" ... A late first, early second century term first used in Antioch. The disciples probably never even heard such a term.

A Brief Narrative of Primitive Christianity from 30 to 70 CE (In retrospect: Jesus’ proclamation of the kingdom of God and the circumstances of his death) by Professor Gerd Lüdemann

http://wwwuser.gwdg.de/~gluedem/download/ABriefNarrative.pdf

Kindly,

Sean

[Shadow_Hill]

There was only one Christian, and he died on the cross. - Nietzsche

Indeed.

[GoddessWhispers]

Thanks for the heads-up, GW.

Nailed it! This was a sectarian movement within Judaism--one of dozens. Jesus never had any intentions of starting a new religion. He was a devout Jew--as were his disciples--until the very end. As for the term "Christian" ... A late first, early second century term first used in Antioch. The disciples probably never even heard such a term.

A Brief Narrative of Primitive Christianity from 30 to 70 CE (In retrospect: Jesus’ proclamation of the kingdom of God and the circumstances of his death) by Professor Gerd Lüdemann

http://wwwuser.gwdg.de/~gluedem/download/ABriefNarrative.pdf

Kindly,

Sean

I was watching a History channel broadcast on the Dead Sea Scrolls, the other day. In that they related how much of the christian rituals , like Baptism, the communion of the last supper wherein christ handed out the bread and wine as the high priest of the group, was reminiscent of jewish rituals that were known to exit at the site of Qumran, where temple pools were discovered. Implying the ritual of purification baths. Ergo, Baptism or immersion in water, was a rendition of that tradition.

So I'm watching that and thinking, with all the researchers are piecing together about the scrolls, learning things that were previously omitted from any known text in judaism, and the like, why are the scrolls written in three languages? Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew. If the Essenes, I believe thats the sect this program said lived at Quamran, spoke Hebrew and set off into the desert so as to keep their tradition pure and unaffected by the Roman overseers, why did they create vast amounts of script about their practices and traditions in three languages?

And the Scrolls are also found to be exact replicas of some of the same material in other Scrolls. Leading one to think that perhaps Quamran was a teaching center. Which would explain multiple languages as well as duplicate copies of Scrolls/text. However, the Quamran sect were sworn to relinquish the materialism of the world, which was one reason they also wanted to leave Rome, and yet many of the Scrolls found have alluded to a treasure map of sorts. Wherein jars of silver and other precious metals, are buried. Which furthers the implication that Quamran was a teaching center and as they served their duty to god and relinquishing materialism, they buried the tuition received, in the process. Although there is a theory that those riches are what remained from the 2nd Temple treasury.

Anyway, I've gone a bit afield to get to this relevant part of the original quote. You know how we've discussed that if a spiritual philosophy doesn't evolve with the times, it tends to perish because its out of date? Well, given the apostles would have all been jewish and thus well aware of the OT and the rituals like the ritual cleansing baths, communion, etc... what if they decided to splice jesus teachings that sought to abolish slavery and engender spiritual revolution and self-awareness, along with the jewish tradition making for a new testament that takes the jewish tradition to a new evolution? Which would entail what the OT said initially. That the people were awaiting the return of the messiah. Well, that's one thing the jews and christians now hold in common. Only according to Paul and the others his name was jesus. And maybe that's why the christian bible that one would think would encompass only the new testament, includes the old. It's first 5 books from the ancient jewish tradition.

What if instead of the greatest trick the devil ever pulled, was convincing the world he didn't exist, standing on it's own, what if those little deific trickster spirits had company in their bag of tricks? What if the greatest trick the apostles ever pulled ended up making people believe christianity isn't jewish?

Edited April 6, 2007 by GoddessWhispers

[seanph]

You always ask terrific questions, GW.

The DSS ... I have long been fascinated by the term "Sons of Light". This phrase appears in the DSS and is used by Jesus in GJohn (found in 1 Thessalonians as well).  The "War Scroll" describes a final battle between the "Sons of Light" and the "Sons of Darkness".  Many scholars (Michael O. Wise, Israel Knohl et al) have speculated that Jesus was well aware of the WS--and the Essene movement--and fashioned himself with/after the Teacher of Righteousness and the SOL.  I can't help but wonder ...

1QM, 4Q491-496

Col. 1

For the In[structor, the Rule of] the War. The first attack of the

Sons of Light shall be undertaken against the forces of the Sons of Darkness, the army of Belial: the troops of Edom, Moab, the sons of Ammon, the [Amalekitesl, Philistia, and the troops of the Kittim of Asshur. Supporting them are those who have violated the covenant. The sons of Levi, the sons of Judah, and the sons of Benjamin, those exiled to the wilderness, shall fight against them with [ . . . ] against all their troops, when the exiles of the Sons of Light return from the Wilderness of the Peoples to camp in the Wilderness of Jerusalem. Then after the battle they shall go up from that place a[nd the king of] the Kittim [shall enter] into Egypt. In his time he shall go forth with great wrath to do battle against the kings of the north and in his anger he shall set out to destroy and eliminate the strength of I[srael. Then there shall be a time of salvation for the People of God, and a time of dominion for all the men of His forces, and eternal annihilation for all the forces of Belial.

There shall be g[reat] panic [among] the sons of Japheth. Assyria shall fall with no one to come to his aid, and the supremacy of the Kittim shall cease, that wickedness be overcome without a remnant. There shall be no survivors of [all the Sons of] Darkness.

Then [the Sons of Rig]hteousness shall shine to all ends of the world, continuing to shine forth until end of the appointed seasons of darkness. Then at the time appointed by God, His great excellence shall shine for all the times of e[ternity;] for peace and blessing, glory and joy, and long life for all Sons of Light. On the day when the Kittim fall there shall be a battle and horrible carnage before the God of Israel, for it is a day appointed by Him from ancient times as a battle of annihilation for the Sons of Darkness. On that day the congregation of the gods and the congregation of men shall engage one another, resulting in great carnage. The Sons of Light and the forces of Darkness shall fight together to show the strength of God with the roar of a great multitude and the shout of gods and men: a day of disaster. It is a time of distress fo[r al]l the people who are redeemed by God. In all their afflictions none exists that is like it, hastening to its completion as an eternal redemption. On the day of their batlle against the Kittim, they shall g[o forth for] carnage in battle. In three lots the Sons of Light shall stand firm so as to strike a blow at wickedness, and in three the army of Belial shall strengthen themselves so as to force the retreat of the forces [of Light. And when the] banners of the infantry cause their hearts to melt. then the strength of God will strengthen the he[arts of the Sons of Light.] In the seventh lot the great hand of God shall overcome [belial and al]1 the angels of his dominion, and all the men of [his forces shall be destroyed forever].

The Dead Sea Scrolls: A New Translation - Revised Edition

http://www.amazon.com/Dead-Sea-Scrolls-Rev...7162&sr=1-1

The First Messiah: Investigating the Savior Before Jesus by Michael O. Wise

http://www.amazon.com/First-Messiah-Invest...7263&sr=1-2

The Messiah before Jesus: The Suffering Servant of the Dead Sea Scrolls (S. Mark Taper Foundation Imprint in Jewish Studies) by Israel Knohl

http://www.amazon.com/Messiah-before-Jesus...7263&sr=1-2

SOL in the NT.

John 12:36  Put your trust in the light while you have it, so that you may become "sons of light." When he had finished speaking, Jesus left and hid himself from them.

1 Thessalonians 5:5  You are all "sons of the light" and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.

Most kindly,

Sean

Edited April 6, 2007 by seanph

[GoddessWhispers]

Eww excellent read. Ty!

What about this, with respect to the gnostic's? (And that prior question )

Men will turn away in rebellion, and there will be a re-establishment of the reign of righteousness, perversity being confounded by the judgments of God. This is what scripture implies in the words, "Who says to Zion, your God has not claimed his Kingdom!" The term Zion there denoting the total congregation of the "sons of righteousness" that is, those who maintain the covenant and turn away from the popular trend, and your God signifying the King of Righteousness, alias Melchizedek Redivivus, who will destroy Belial. Our text speaks also of sounding a loud trumpet blast throughout the land on the tenth day of the seventh month. As applied to the last days, this refers to the fanfare which will then be sounded before the Messianic King." (The Last Jubilee) (Note to Draconic Chronicler, you'll love the first part of that link, I think)

And I had to share this to further the discussion. Quamran Community As A Source Of Christianity?

Edited April 6, 2007 by GoddessWhispers

[draconic chronicler]

Eww excellent read. Ty!

What about this, with respect to the gnostic's? (And that prior question )

Men will turn away in rebellion, and there will be a re-establishment of the reign of righteousness, perversity being confounded by the judgments of God. This is what scripture implies in the words, "Who says to Zion, your God has not claimed his Kingdom!" The term Zion there denoting the total congregation of the "sons of righteousness" that is, those who maintain the covenant and turn away from the popular trend, and your God signifying the King of Righteousness, alias Melchizedek Redivivus, who will destroy Belial. Our text speaks also of sounding a loud trumpet blast throughout the land on the tenth day of the seventh month. As applied to the last days, this refers to the fanfare which will then be sounded before the Messianic King." (The Last Jubilee) (Note to Draconic Chronicler, you'll love the first part of that link, I think)

And I had to share this to further the discussion. Quamran Community As A Source Of Christianity?

Hmmmm GW, if you were referring to the quote of Rev. 12, that is the most tired and worn out dragon quote in the Bible, (after the one about the dragon satan being cast into the abyss, of course), and ironically, unlike the Old Testament dragon servants (and the Yahweh storm dragon himself), the seven headed dragon in Revelation is a purely symbolic creature intended to represent Rome, then persecuting the early Church. But I would be interested in any references to dragons from obscure gnostic texts and the like, you may run across, for I have probably missed a few.

The righteous war against the evil Belial is rather amusing though, for archaeologists today know that Bel and Yahweh are really the same God only superficially changed by the different cultures who adopted the Sumerian original. But when did that ever matter, as Moslems and Christians kill each other, or even Protestants and Catholics?

But some believe the references to temple treasures and the huge number of scrolls in various languages indicate that the Qumran scrolls may have been rescued from the temple before Jerusalem was conquered by the Romans, and not simply the work of a "commune".

Edited April 7, 2007 by draconic chronicler

[GoddessWhispers]

I'd not heard Belial and Yahweh were found to be one and the same. That puts a whole other twist on reading those passages wherein Belial is mentioned. Thank you for posting this. Are you going to watch the CNN special?

[draconic chronicler]

I'd not heard Belial and Yahweh were found to be one and the same. That puts a whole other twist on reading those passages wherein Belial is mentioned. Thank you for posting this. Are you going to watch the CNN special?

The ancient Hebrews did not have the advantage of archaeology as we do today, to see how the same gods appear previously under different names. People today often do not realize that the times of Abraham were as ancient to Jesus, as Jesus' time is to us. Storm Gods Bel and Yahweh are aspects of Marduk, who in turn is a "humanized" composite of the "great serpent dragons" and brothers Enlil and Enki. Both Bel ans Yahweh subdue the great sea serpent, (chaotic forces of nature) exactly as Marduk, and before him, Enki. As man developed, the animalistic Gods became human but the creatures the God once was become the human God's servants and symbols. Thus, Marduk rides on the back of a striding Mushushu dragon that had been his father Enki, and Yahweh does the same upon the same creature now called Cherubim. Marduk's throne is flanked by guardian dragons called Sirrush, Yahweh's throne is flanked by dragons called seraphim, which by medieval times had become swan-winged angels based on pagan Greco Roman demigods.

Yes, I saw the CNN special last night. I thought it was good, but no new revelations.

[GoddessWhispers]

Yes, I saw the CNN special last night. I thought it was good, but no new revelations.

I thought I heard one, which means I'll have to go back and watch it again, but if I'm not mistaken the narrator said that Saul/Paul had believed in order to be a christian one had to become a jew. If I heard that correctly, then it makes me wonder how "The Rock" could have later been the patriarch to the catholic church. Since he was said to the co-founder of christianity. (again from the special). I know I'll be replaying that recording, just for the sake of clarity.