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Question for vegetarians

vegatarian meat free run animals vegan

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#16    Perfection

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 12:32 AM

Oh I wanted to add something to the discussion but wasn't sure where to start. So I thought I'd just point out that animals can be deadly to humans & so vegetarians or people who want animals to roam free should consider that survival may come down to kill the animals or be killed.

Also I believe that plants are living entities, & so vegetarians are in an illusion if they imagine that vegetarians are non violent.


#17    trancelikestate

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 12:50 AM

View PostPerfection, on 16 May 2013 - 12:32 AM, said:

Oh I wanted to add something to the discussion but wasn't sure where to start. So I thought I'd just point out that animals can be deadly to humans & so vegetarians or people who want animals to roam free should consider that survival may come down to kill the animals or be killed.

Also I believe that plants are living entities, & so vegetarians are in an illusion if they imagine that vegetarians are non violent.

Actualy I brought up the point in another discussion that turned into a meat vs veggie debate. the point kind of fits here as well.


"Don't underestimate the life in plants. They communicate with eachother, react to being hurt and respond to their environment just like any other life form and on a cellular level they are just as alive and actually more complicated then we are.

Scientists have also learnt in recent years that lower life forms such as insects and even fish, lack the full nervous system we have, They don't "feel" like we do, including pain, and it may be possible they are just creatures of pure instinctual programming.

We need to consume life in order to live ourselves. It's just the way nature works. That said it I do believe we need to show more respect to the animals we eat and society as a whole should shift to a more plant based diet as it is far more sustainable and better for the environment and therefore everyone."


#18    redhen

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 01:43 AM

View PostPerfection, on 16 May 2013 - 12:32 AM, said:

Oh I wanted to add something to the discussion but wasn't sure where to start. So I thought I'd just point out that animals can be deadly to humans & so vegetarians or people who want animals to roam free should consider that survival may come down to kill the animals or be killed.

Indeed. Bears are becoming more of a hazard recently, probably because people have easier access to the forests. Polar bears will actually hunt humans. That said, I don't blame indigenous peoples, for example Eskimos, whose only reliable source of food is meat.

Quote

Also I believe that plants are living entities, & so vegetarians are in an illusion if they imagine that vegetarians are non violent.

Yes they are living organisms, but I don't think they feel pain. However I've been feeling twinges of guilt lately while violently pulling out dandelions. All this recent talk of plant communication may be getting to me.


#19    redhen

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 01:49 AM

View Posttrancelikestate, on 16 May 2013 - 12:18 AM, said:

No I mean even if it wasnt my choice, the exact same situation as any animal,  I'd rather be born and eaten than not be born at all. but thats just another mans opinion.

Well, I think this is more of an existential question rather than a moral one. Existential questions make my head spin. :blink:


#20    White Crane Feather

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 07:27 AM

View PostPerfection, on 16 May 2013 - 12:32 AM, said:

Oh I wanted to add something to the discussion but wasn't sure where to start. So I thought I'd just point out that animals can be deadly to humans & so vegetarians or people who want animals to roam free should consider that survival may come down to kill the animals or be killed.

Also I believe that plants are living entities, & so vegetarians are in an illusion if they imagine that vegetarians are non violent.
Awesome. I will add to this sentiment. Does anyone realize that it takes MODERN AGRICULTURE to allow vegetarians to even exist. Do modern vegetarians understand that many things die, and ecologies  are ruined to support agriculture. It's rediculous actually. If a vegetarian is not a hunter gatherer style vegetarian, then you have no basis in morality nor logic. A health choice, just to avoid the pitfalls... I'm all for it. As long as you do not attach a moral argument.

Edited by Seeker79, 16 May 2013 - 07:28 AM.

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#21    trancelikestate

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 11:52 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 16 May 2013 - 07:27 AM, said:

Awesome. I will add to this sentiment. Does anyone realize that it takes MODERN AGRICULTURE to allow vegetarians to even exist. Do modern vegetarians understand that many things die, and ecologies  are ruined to support agriculture. It's rediculous actually. If a vegetarian is not a hunter gatherer style vegetarian, then you have no basis in morality nor logic. A health choice, just to avoid the pitfalls... I'm all for it. As long as you do not attach a moral argument.

I don't think the moral arugment of vegetarians is about the destruction of ecosystems, it's about whether or not killing for our own good is right or not.

On the topic of mass agriculture, destruction of the natural world is unfortunatly unavoidable with the exponential growth of our race. There is still alot that can be done though. If the land used for cattle were instead used to grow crops for example, there would be enough to feed the entire world, or so I've read. If people in cities used there yards to grow some of their own food, instead of having fretting over perfect lawns, it would also reduce some of the need for mass argiculture and help reduce the damage we need to do in order to live.


#22    White Crane Feather

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:00 PM

View Posttrancelikestate, on 16 May 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:



I don't think the moral arugment of vegetarians is about the destruction of ecosystems, it's about whether or not killing for our own good is right or not.

On the topic of mass agriculture, destruction of the natural world is unfortunatly unavoidable with the exponential growth of our race. There is still alot that can be done though. If the land used for cattle were instead used to grow crops for example, there would be enough to feed the entire world, or so I've read. If people in cities used there yards to grow some of their own food, instead of having fretting over perfect lawns, it would also reduce some of the need for mass argiculture and help reduce the damage we need to do in order to live.
Right, but it's a double standard. It's not ok to hunt or raise and kill an animal, but it's ok plow a field destroying the natural structure of the soil  while  displacing or ruining animals and other natural processes. Then to support the agriculture waterways must be diverted, pesticides and herbicides dumped on everything, and the crop protected with deadly force or poison from wikd animals that would feed off of it. There is plenty of death and pain associated with plant based foods in a large society not to mention massive ecological damage from poor soil and water Managment. Ever hear of the dust bowl.

Much of the land that cattle graze ( excluding junk like feed lots) was grazed by many other animals in precolumbian times that were decimated by over hunting ( elk, deer, buffalo etc etc). The grazing cattle actually replaces and important factor in the ecosystem. Without it the ecosystem
Grows unchecked and nutrients are not process and redistributed in the soil properly. Often on public lands we allow ranchers to graze cattle there to replace the elk and or buffalo Herds that we're once very numerous. Grazing cattle on land is a very very good thing as long as its not structured like a feed lot.

It is certainly avoidable by structuring farms within the rythems and cycles of nature. It can actually be well over 30 times more efficient and the amount of product per acre multiplied many times over without the use of pesticides, herbicides, gmos, or inhumane treatment of animals.

In addition animals play a very important roll in providing fertilizer and organically enriched soil, without them it would be very hard to sustain a plant based food system without the use of chemical fertilizers like ammonium nitrate ( CAAABBOOOOOOOOMMMM!!!!! :(

All in all vegetarians really have no moral ground to stand plant based agriculture for large populations is much more destructive than ranching or animal based products, and actually in many cases rides on the back of animal production, not to mention the large amount fossil fuels that are used to produce and transport agricultural products. Without modern infrastructure built on fossil fuels vegitarians would not be able to find the right kinds of proteins and fats they need to live and would succumb to range of malnutrition problems.

http://www.livestron...not-enough-fat/

Yes we need to be as humane as possible something we are doing a p*** poor job of amoung other things, but animal production must an integrual part of sustainable and healthy agricultural systems that can very easily feed this world and the world of the future. Hopfully we will wake up to these facts.

This documentary shows how organic sustainable farming within tge rythems of nature is much more productive and healthy than current wide spread practices.






"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#23    little_dreamer

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:22 PM

How about people who eat roadkill (animals killed by a car, as long as they were not driving)?  Is this ethical?  Or just plain gross? :(

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#24    redhen

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:10 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 16 May 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

Right, but it's a double standard. It's not ok to hunt or raise and kill an animal, but it's ok plow a field destroying the natural structure of the soil  while  displacing or ruining animals and other natural processes.

Land is not being massively converted to agricultural fields solely to grow crops for vegetarians. If I'm wrong on this, please show me the evidence.

There are several formal logical fallacies in your argument, straw men, red herrings and the biggest one; tu quoque or "look who's talking".




#25    shrooma

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:24 PM

to kind of bring it back to your original question OP, 'if you were an animal, and you knew you were going to be eaten, would you rather not be born at all, the answer is simple-
YOU know you're going to die at some point, would you rather not have existed, or would you rather have lived until you died....?
I know what my answer would be!
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#26    Heaven Is A Halfpipe

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:15 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 16 May 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

Right, but it's a double standard. It's not ok to hunt or raise and kill an animal, but it's ok plow a field destroying the natural structure of the soil  while  displacing or ruining animals and other natural processes. Then to support the agriculture waterways must be diverted, pesticides and herbicides dumped on everything, and the crop protected with deadly force or poison from wikd animals that would feed off of it. There is plenty of death and pain associated with plant based foods in a large society not to mention massive ecological damage from poor soil and water Managment. Ever hear of the dust bowl.

Much of the land that cattle graze ( excluding junk like feed lots) was grazed by many other animals in precolumbian times that were decimated by over hunting ( elk, deer, buffalo etc etc). The grazing cattle actually replaces and important factor in the ecosystem. Without it the ecosystem
Grows unchecked and nutrients are not process and redistributed in the soil properly. Often on public lands we allow ranchers to graze cattle there to replace the elk and or buffalo Herds that we're once very numerous. Grazing cattle on land is a very very good thing as long as its not structured like a feed lot.

It is certainly avoidable by structuring farms within the rythems and cycles of nature. It can actually be well over 30 times more efficient and the amount of product per acre multiplied many times over without the use of pesticides, herbicides, gmos, or inhumane treatment of animals.

In addition animals play a very important roll in providing fertilizer and organically enriched soil, without them it would be very hard to sustain a plant based food system without the use of chemical fertilizers like ammonium nitrate ( CAAABBOOOOOOOOMMMM!!!!! :(

All in all vegetarians really have no moral ground to stand plant based agriculture for large populations is much more destructive than ranching or animal based products, and actually in many cases rides on the back of animal production, not to mention the large amount fossil fuels that are used to produce and transport agricultural products. Without modern infrastructure built on fossil fuels vegitarians would not be able to find the right kinds of proteins and fats they need to live and would succumb to range of malnutrition problems.

http://www.livestron...not-enough-fat/

Yes we need to be as humane as possible something we are doing a p*** poor job of amoung other things, but animal production must an integrual part of sustainable and healthy agricultural systems that can very easily feed this world and the world of the future. Hopfully we will wake up to these facts.

This documentary shows how organic sustainable farming within tge rythems of nature is much more productive and healthy than current wide spread practices.






Farming animals for meat is "hunting" them, is it? Do you hunt for the meat you consume? If you do, fair play to you. If you just pop down to your local supermarket, you have no leg to stand on.

For the few comments that vegetarians should feel bad, also, because plants communicate with one another, are they actually aware that fruits and things don't actually kill (nor presumably harm) plants they come from? An apple falls from a tree..the tree doesn't die. Also, it's not news that plants are living things.

How ridiculous to compare that to the slaughter mankind inflicts upon wildlife day in, day out. The attempt to try and demonise vegetarians too comes from a deep rooted personal guilt and desperate justification for their own indulgences.

Just imo of course :tu:

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#27    Heaven Is A Halfpipe

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:29 PM

Quote

So I personally agree that the way animals are generally raised today for our consuption is wrong and I understand why some people choose to be vegetarians.

I'm glad you agree.

Quote

What about free run animals which are treated well their whole life? How do you vegetarians feel about the idea of eating them?

I went vegetarian when I was 17 because I had a love for wildlife and animals in general. It was later I actually discovered the extent of the disgusting workings of the meat industry and that turned me off the idea of ever going back (not that I wanted to). As far as I'm concerned, I've lived a healthy life for 8 years and I see no reason why I would go back to eating meat. Without any meat or fish, my body (and mind) is in tip top condition so why would I go back? Just for the taste of bacon, chicken or whatever else? Well, that would be pretty damn selfish of me. To expect animals to die just so I could eat them for the mere taste. At least those that try to argue (despite being wrong) the point they need meat/fish for a healthy lifestyle actually think they need it for more than just the taste. There's plenty of meat alternatives, many I can't even tell the difference from. Though I personally eat a lot of rice, pasta, vegetables, fruit etc. To put it simply: I wouldn't consider eating "free run" animals either.

Quote

Is it still "wrong" in your opinons to eat such animals? Keep in mind most of animals farmed like that would have never been born if not for the need to farm them.

Of course they could still have been born, in a non-farming lifestyle. The animals are perfectly capable of reproducing. You're trying to say that it's okay to eat "free range" animals because they weren't kept in cages, yet they'll still be killed for human consumption. That's simply just the better of two evils to me, doesn't actually make it something acceptable to me. Have you ever watched an animal be killed? Have you seen the fear in their eyes? The squeals of panic? It's heart breaking. And for what? Because there's a lot of selfish people in this world who couldn't possibly go without their favourite tasting meats. Just the bottom line for me.

Quote

So the philisophical question I have here is, Is it better to have lived a good life with the destiny of one day being killed and consumed or to not have experianced life to begin with?

Here's an idea. How about we let the animals live without being killed to be consumed in any way by us, period, and we still go on living healthy :o matter of fact..the human population would probably get a whole lot damn healthier and nobody can say that ain't needed.

PS: most of my friends and all my family are meat eaters; it's not my place to preach to them. If they ask me why I don't eat meat, I'll tell them and more often than not, I give them information about the farming of animals they didn't even know which does tend to shock people (and it has turned a few people I've told) but ultimately it's their decision and it's their conscience. Yeah, I do think it's a bit selfish/ignorant of them (or anybody really) to continue eating meat but I have flaws of my own :tu:

Edited by Heaven Is A Halfpipe, 16 May 2013 - 10:35 PM.

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#28    Ever Learning

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:38 PM

View Postredhen, on 15 May 2013 - 12:46 AM, said:

argumentum ad populum



Emotions of guilt? Good, that means something does not jive with your moral beliefs. This essay than should prove to you The immorality of eating meat, using no new arguments, just the beliefs that you already hold.

And for someone who lives in Plato's cave, the logic should be inescapable. So the question is, how much cognitive dissonance can you live with?
I gave up meat for lent once and became very ill, I used all the alternative protein foods I could but it still didn't help me. please don't be so judgy, you don't know me. ive struggled my whole life with my diet having a metabolism that burns off fat sitting down, so if Im unable to store carbs, I cant give up meat or id waste away.
p.s theres nothing wrong with pleasing the majority when theirs no ill repercussions, I come here for enjoyment and I have many displeasing views that people don't agree with on this forum.

Edited by Armchair Educated, 16 May 2013 - 10:48 PM.

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#29    shrooma

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:39 PM

View PostHeaven Is A Halfpipe, on 16 May 2013 - 10:15 PM, said:

The attempt to try and demonise vegetarians too comes from a deep rooted personal guilt and desperate justification for their own indulgences.

Just imo of course :tu:
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you keep telling yourself that.

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#30    shrooma

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:49 PM

let'see who started demonising who shall we?
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http://www.unexplain...pic=247846&st=0
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can you say hypocrisy....?

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