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John 20:19


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#1    fullywired

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 07:13 PM

This being Easter there was a lot of religious services on the TV and one of the readings i listened to  was from John 20:19 and it struck me as being a bit strange ,because it sounded a bit anti semitic


John 20:19 says, "Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in their midst and said unto them, 'Peace be unto you.'"
and I wondered why Jews would be afraid of other Jews, when after all it was the Romans who crucified Jesus not the Jews
Stoning was the Jewish method of execution as I understand it ,not crucifixion ,was it anti semitism on the part of the translator.?

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#2    Child of Bast

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 07:21 PM

For fear of the Jewish leaders. Most translations either indicate Jewish leaders or note that this is what is meant by the use of the Greek word Ioudaioi.

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#3    Coffey

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 07:31 PM

You think that's bad, you should read the Talmud! lol ( Very important Jewish book)

Here is some of the nasty lines form it:


O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews:
Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work.

Jews Have Superior Legal Status:
"If an ox of an Israelite gores an ox of a Canaanite there is no liability; but if an ox of a Canaanite gores an ox of an Israelite...the payment is to be in full."

Jews May Steal from Non-Jews:
Baba Mezia 24a . If a Jew finds an object lost by a gentile ("heathen") it does not have to be returned. (Affirmed also in Baba Kamma 113b). Sanhedrin 76a. God will not spare a Jew who "marries his daughter to an old man or takes a wife for his infant son or returns a lost article to a Cuthean..."

Jews May Rob and Kill Non-Jews:
Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a gentile ("Cuthean"), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.
Baba Kamma 37b. The gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has "exposed their money to Israel."

Non-Jewish Children are Sub-Human:
Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.
Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.
Abodah Zarah 22a-22b . Gentiles prefer sex with cows.

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#4    simplybill

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 07:35 PM

The Jewish leaders of the time had maneuvered themselves into a position of being a virtual "Jewish Mafia". They weren't the benevolent rulers of old, such as David or Solomon. They had already made two attempts on Jesus' life for calling them out on their thievery and their religious pomposity (once by taking up stones to stone him, and another time by attempting to throw him off a cliff). They were very jealous of their control over the masses, and Jesus threatened that control. Hence, they made a very determined effort to eradicate the followers of Jesus.

Every warrior is happy when his enemies flee before him, but much more blessed is the man to whom his fiercest enemies can come with confidence, knowing beforehand they will be received with love.
Richard Wurmbrand in Reaching Toward the Heights.

#5    fullywired

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 07:37 PM

.'Lady Kasey' timestamp='1364844077' post='4719643']
For fear of the Jewish leaders. Most translations either indicate Jewish leaders or note that this is what is meant by the use of the Greek word Ioudaioi.
.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


I did a search online and came to the conclusion that it depended which Bible translation you were happy with , even the ones that gave a footnote saying "leaders "said probably it meant leaders

  fullywired

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-------Buddha (563 - 483 BC)

#6    Ever Learning

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 07:47 PM

View Postfullywired, on 01 April 2013 - 07:37 PM, said:

.'Lady Kasey' timestamp='1364844077' post='4719643']
For fear of the Jewish leaders. Most translations either indicate Jewish leaders or note that this is what is meant by the use of the Greek word Ioudaioi.
.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


I did a search online and came to the conclusion that it depended which Bible translation you were happy with , even the ones that gave a footnote saying "leaders "said probably it meant leaders

  fullywired
the jewish leaders wanted jesus dead but didnt want to dirty their own hands, they got the hesitant romans to do it. there were some jews who might of wanted to attack them, remember it cant be anti semetic if jews call jews a jew.

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#7    Ever Learning

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 07:55 PM

View PostCoffey, on 01 April 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

You think that's bad, you should read the Talmud! lol ( Very important Jewish book)

Here is some of the nasty lines form it:


O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews:
Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work.

Jews Have Superior Legal Status:
"If an ox of an Israelite gores an ox of a Canaanite there is no liability; but if an ox of a Canaanite gores an ox of an Israelite...the payment is to be in full."

Jews May Steal from Non-Jews:
Baba Mezia 24a . If a Jew finds an object lost by a gentile ("heathen") it does not have to be returned. (Affirmed also in Baba Kamma 113b). Sanhedrin 76a. God will not spare a Jew who "marries his daughter to an old man or takes a wife for his infant son or returns a lost article to a Cuthean..."

Jews May Rob and Kill Non-Jews:
Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a gentile ("Cuthean"), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.
Baba Kamma 37b. The gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has "exposed their money to Israel."

Non-Jewish Children are Sub-Human:
Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.
Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.
Abodah Zarah 22a-22b . Gentiles prefer sex with cows.
Talmud isnt the old testament but a later book, in the christian point of view this isnt from god. a book of traditions is what it is and jesus rebuked many for following man made traditions instead of the law of god.

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#8    and then

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:09 PM

View PostCoffey, on 01 April 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

You think that's bad, you should read the Talmud! lol ( Very important Jewish book)

Here is some of the nasty lines form it:


O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews:
Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work.

Jews Have Superior Legal Status:
"If an ox of an Israelite gores an ox of a Canaanite there is no liability; but if an ox of a Canaanite gores an ox of an Israelite...the payment is to be in full."

Jews May Steal from Non-Jews:
Baba Mezia 24a . If a Jew finds an object lost by a gentile ("heathen") it does not have to be returned. (Affirmed also in Baba Kamma 113b). Sanhedrin 76a. God will not spare a Jew who "marries his daughter to an old man or takes a wife for his infant son or returns a lost article to a Cuthean..."

Jews May Rob and Kill Non-Jews:
Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a gentile ("Cuthean"), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.
Baba Kamma 37b. The gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has "exposed their money to Israel."

Non-Jewish Children are Sub-Human:
Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.
Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.
Abodah Zarah 22a-22b . Gentiles prefer sex with cows.
Coffee is it your contention that all or even many modern Jews follow this doctrine?

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#9    and then

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:11 PM

View Postfullywired, on 01 April 2013 - 07:37 PM, said:

.'Lady Kasey' timestamp='1364844077' post='4719643']
For fear of the Jewish leaders. Most translations either indicate Jewish leaders or note that this is what is meant by the use of the Greek word Ioudaioi.
.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


I did a search online and came to the conclusion that it depended which Bible translation you were happy with , even the ones that gave a footnote saying "leaders "said probably it meant leaders

  fullywired
The "Jews" were the leaders who were responsible for the  crucifixion of  their master.

View PostCoffey, on 01 April 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

You think that's bad, you should read the Talmud! lol ( Very important Jewish book)

Here is some of the nasty lines form it:


O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews:
Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work.

Jews Have Superior Legal Status:
"If an ox of an Israelite gores an ox of a Canaanite there is no liability; but if an ox of a Canaanite gores an ox of an Israelite...the payment is to be in full."

Jews May Steal from Non-Jews:
Baba Mezia 24a . If a Jew finds an object lost by a gentile ("heathen") it does not have to be returned. (Affirmed also in Baba Kamma 113b). Sanhedrin 76a. God will not spare a Jew who "marries his daughter to an old man or takes a wife for his infant son or returns a lost article to a Cuthean..."

Jews May Rob and Kill Non-Jews:
Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a gentile ("Cuthean"), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.
Baba Kamma 37b. The gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has "exposed their money to Israel."

Non-Jewish Children are Sub-Human:
Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.
Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.
Abodah Zarah 22a-22b . Gentiles prefer sex with cows.
Coffee is it your contention that all or even many modern Jews follow this doctrine?

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#10    Ever Learning

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:18 PM

View Postand then, on 01 April 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

The "Jews" were the leaders who were responsible for the  crucifixion of  their master.

Coffee is it your contention that all or even many modern Jews follow this doctrine?
i had to look up the talmud my self , was thinking to my self i have never read these things in the bible, which ive read from beginning to end. was about to question my translation even though its an esv lol

Edited by Armchair Educated, 01 April 2013 - 08:22 PM.

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#11    eight bits

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:30 PM

Well, who needs translations?

http://interlinearbi...org/john/20.htm

I can't get the Greek to copy properly here. Anyway. it's just "fear of the Jews," nothing about leaders, or how the disciples themselves are Jews.

Some people read John as "anti-Semitic." I am unsure that it really is. All the Gospels agree that the Romans executed Jesus, but that the Jewish Temple officials arrested him, tried him, and surrendered him from their custody to the custody of the Romans, with the request that he be executed by Pilate's administration. It was a collaborative effort. "Objectively," Jesus probably was guilty of blasphemy under Second Temple Judaism's judicial norms, and of sedition, under Roman law.

Neither the religion nor the state exist any more. The religion survived Jesus by only about a single generation, crushed by the state in question. If adherents of later forms of Judaism "paid for" the Second Temple authorities' actions, I'd be looking to Matthew 27: 25, where the dispute is transformed from a doctrinal squabble to a blood libel. And John is supposed to be the anti-Semitic Gospel?

John is also unique among Gospels in saying that Jesus was not the only target of the arrest plot. While Mark includes the attempt to arrest an unnamed young man who escapes, it is only John that has the decision makers targeting Lazarus of Bethany as well as Jesus. (The young man in Mark could well have been Lazarus). So, fear of arrest by those who arrested Jesus would not be entirely irrational for his other close associates.

All four Gospels agree that Peter, at least, actually was in fear of arrest or popular reprisal, and that at most one male disciple was physically present with Jesus when he was killed.

All that John 20: 19 really says is that the unindicted co-conspirators of a recently convicted felon laid low until things blew over. That they feared the Jews is a statement about their state of mind, rather than about the Jews. Neither John, nor any other Gospel, depicts the Jews as really much interested in the disciples. Acts depicts the Jewish authorities to have been reluctant to proceed vigorously against the disciples for quite a while after they became active again.

Edited by eight bits, 01 April 2013 - 08:34 PM.

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#12    Coffey

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:55 PM

View Postand then, on 01 April 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

Coffee is it your contention that all or even many modern Jews follow this doctrine?

Of course not, I didn't even imply it. I was just making a point it's a religious book with worse things written in it.



View PostArmchair Educated, on 01 April 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

Talmud isnt the old testament but a later book, in the christian point of view this isnt from god. a book of traditions is what it is and jesus rebuked many for following man made traditions instead of the law of god.

It is considered as the second book to the Torah though.

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#13    Jor-el

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 09:35 PM

View Postfullywired, on 01 April 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

This being Easter there was a lot of religious services on the TV and one of the readings i listened to  was from John 20:19 and it struck me as being a bit strange ,because it sounded a bit anti semitic


John 20:19 says, "Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in their midst and said unto them, 'Peace be unto you.'"
and I wondered why Jews would be afraid of other Jews, when after all it was the Romans who crucified Jesus not the Jews
Stoning was the Jewish method of execution as I understand it ,not crucifixion ,was it anti semitism on the part of the translator.?

fullywired

A simple enough explanation exists for your question..

The Jews leadership could not be seen to get rid of Jesus directly, they employed a simple strategy to get the romans to do it for them. Another interesting aspect that many people forget, the Jewish leadership could not sentence anybody to death anymore. That authority was abolished in 5 C.E. when Rome took over Judaea and it became a province of Rome rather than ally as was the case in the time of Herod the Great.

So much so that when this happened the Jews of the time were seen to be crying in the street and screaming to heaven "Woe unto us for the sceptre has departed from Judah and the Messiah has not come"

Rabbi Rachmon in the Jerusalem Talmud wrote that:

When the members of the Sanhedrin found themselves deprived of their right over life and death, a general consternation took possession of them: they covered their heads with ashes, and their bodies with sackcloth, exclaiming: 'Woe unto us for the sceptre has departed from Judah and the Messiah has not come'. (Jerusalem Talmud, Sanhedrin, 24)



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#14    Mr Walker

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 10:44 PM

If christ had not been killed then we COULD NOT have christianity as it exists today, where its main tenet and attraction is the sacrifice and example of Christ's death. The death atoned for all humans  separation from god, in christian theology, and allowed each of us to reconnect to him. The resurrection was a template for christian belief in eternal life. Those two tenets form the basic ongoing attraction of christianity.

Personally, I prefer the model of christ's life as a human being, as a reason to be a christian, because it actually works, and can be observed in practice in the real world I live in, but i can see the appeal of the other two tenets.

All sins forgiven. Eternal life for all. And the only condition is to accept god and his ability to create both these conditions, where acceptance of god involves living as god asks us to. A part of this is repenting past individual sins, making restitution for them, and trying our hardest not to sin from that time on.

My point is; jews or romans, we have to be thankful to them for killing Christ in human form. If that had not happened, history would be very different, with possibly an evolved form of judaism that would have very little impact on the world, and the old Roman (or other) gods becoming mainstream human religious form in the 21st century.

Edited by Mr Walker, 01 April 2013 - 10:51 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#15    scowl

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 03:51 PM

View PostCoffey, on 01 April 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

You think that's bad, you should read the Talmud! lol ( Very important Jewish book)

You don't even have to go into the Talmud to read about (fictional) Jewish atrocities. The Old Testament details the campaigns of Joshua to exterminate (or in some cases enslave) all gentiles from the Holy Land and steal everything they own. This genocide was directed and endorsed by God. The Talmud simply reflects the superior position in the world that God said that Jews have.





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