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Man Possessed by Gay Demon


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#76    Rlyeh

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 02:29 PM

View PostI believe you, on 08 December 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

I only feel embarassed for those who are not sophisticated enough to respect the beliefs of others.
Harmful beliefs are not deserving of respect.


#77    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 03:20 PM

View PostI believe you, on 08 December 2012 - 01:34 PM, said:

I view it as everyone regardless of their circumstance or belief deserves my respect.


In general - Beliefs that hurt others  and make other people look like complete morons,..are not worth my respect, I have an ounce of dignity,

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#78    Lava_Lady

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 03:26 PM

View Postealdwita, on 08 December 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:

If this bloke was being 'treated' for possession by the spirit of Napoleon or Atilla the Hun, everybody would be rolling about laughing at the obvious daftness of that vid, but immediately the word 'gay' is mentioned, the PC brigade start jumping up and down in righteous indignation! Lighten up - it's downright funny!

The "PC brigade" is much more holy than the rest of us unsophisticated, disrespectful, folk.  LMAO!!!!

Honestly, that clip is good comedy!!  And as far as know that is what it was meant to be since there is no explanation.  But even if there had been something saying it was real, I'd still think it was hilarious... Because it is!
Hahaha!!!  :D

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#79    Jessica Christ

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 03:45 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 08 December 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

In general - Beliefs that hurt others  and make other people look like complete morons,..are not worth my respect, I have an ounce of dignity,

In general, other cultures have to be given the chance to mature on their own just as our culture has been allowed too.

To make fun or condemn them as wrong is like an adult yelling at a child to act a certain way the adult approves of, or worse an adult making fun of and laughing at a child.

Surely a component of their beliefs are harmful but the only legitimate action that can spur change are those from within the culture. Making fun of others or being quick to judge other cultures as right and wrong is also harmful. So while group A (gay demon exorcist, possessed, audience) is being made fun of by group B, there is a group C that sees both group A and B have a bit of maturing to do. No worries, we all have to grow at our own pace, and just as some in group B belive those in group A have beliefs that harm, some in group C believe both those in group A and B have beliefs that harm, still no need to make fun of anyone.


#80    notoverrated

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 04:26 PM

i was rolling at 1:04 man this is great.

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#81    shadowhive

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 04:57 PM

View PostI believe you, on 08 December 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

In general, other cultures have to be given the chance to mature on their own just as our culture has been allowed too.

To make fun or condemn them as wrong is like an adult yelling at a child to act a certain way the adult approves of, or worse an adult making fun of and laughing at a child.

Surely a component of their beliefs are harmful but the only legitimate action that can spur change are those from within the culture. Making fun of others or being quick to judge other cultures as right and wrong is also harmful. So while group A (gay demon exorcist, possessed, audience) is being made fun of by group B, there is a group C that sees both group A and B have a bit of maturing to do. No worries, we all have to grow at our own pace, and just as some in group B belive those in group A have beliefs that harm, some in group C believe both those in group A and B have beliefs that harm, still no need to make fun of anyone.

I have a question for you.

Where is the line? By that I mean when does it become acceptable to act when something is wrong.

To me there's a clear line and that line is when culture A harms someone. It doesn't matter to me if the people harmed are part lof the culture or outside or it,  in any case that harm is wrong and it should be condemned. It shouldn't be excused. To take your example of an adult and a child. If a child is a bully and is hurting other children should the adult just stand by and do nothing, or should the adult step in to stop it?

Sometimes to get a group to understand you must condemn what thye're doing or else they won't learn. Like with the child that's a bully. If no one condemns the child's actions, it will assume they're ok and keep doing it. Sometimes condemnation isn't immature, but is actually the right thing to do.

Also people within a cultural can make a change, but they need to be empowered to do so, otherwise they never will.

Edited by shadowhive, 08 December 2012 - 04:59 PM.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
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#82    Simbi Laveau

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 06:03 PM

Oh,how did I miss this ....
What a show . I hate televangelist crap . The money they make is criminal .
PRAISE JEEHHESUS ! AHHHVVV BEEN HEALED !

Miss me?

#83    Lava_Lady

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 06:35 PM

View PostSimbi Laveau, on 08 December 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

Oh,how did I miss this ....
What a show . I hate televangelist crap . The money they make is criminal .
PRAISE JEEHHESUS ! AHHHVVV BEEN HEALED !

Agreed.  And they are the worst hypocrites.

Example:  http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/03/haggard.allegations/index.html

That's just one, I could go on and on and on.....

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#84    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 06:36 PM

View PostI believe you, on 08 December 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

In general, other cultures have to be given the chance to mature on their own just as our culture has been allowed too.

Other cultures have been given the chance and the freedom to mature, shame so many of them don't care to...

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   To make fun or condemn them as wrong is like an adult yelling at a child to act a certain way the adult approves of, or worse an adult making fun of and laughing at a child.   

Make fun?   If those people in the video had any sense and dignity, they wouldn't have put on such a lame show.. If children were to do it, you could excuse them, but two grown men?  

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Making fun of others or being quick to judge other cultures as right and wrong is also harmful.

To whom ?  Various religious people have been judging and condemning people for centuries, people say it is their beliefs and that excuses them...  I didn't mock their video, I was embarrassed for them..It's a shame they put on such a joke of a show..  It's no wonder people here found it funny.. No one sane could take that seriously..

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   So while group A (gay demon exorcist, possessed, audience) is being made fun of by group B, there is a group C that sees both group A and B have a bit of maturing to do   

Group A were the ones making a complete and utter joke out of the entire situation.. I mean for the love of pancakes, a gay demon?  That jumps to answer some guy with a mic ? That act was lame I didn't poke fun, I said it was a complete joke and bad acting to boot   I was also embarrassed for them ..its not mockery, its sheer embarrassment  ..

I would have been embarrassed to sit in their audience.. In fact I would have made a sly exit hoping no one would see me there... I wouldn't be surprised if some of them did get up and walk.. it was so bad ..At one point through out the video, the guy with the mic looked as if he was trying to stop himself from laughing it was that bad, when he turned to the front row and smirked, right after the guy pretending to be possessed said - "Don't you let those women near me again", I even heard someone from the audience laugh as it went on.... And you worry that I don't show them respect?  I doubt they would give a toss if I said it was lame or not..

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 08 December 2012 - 06:48 PM.

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#85    JGirl

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 06:49 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 08 December 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

Harmful beliefs are not deserving of respect.
i agree. in any case respect is earned, or commanded by actions. it's never 'deserved' in the sense that it's automatically assumed.


#86    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 07:02 PM

View PostJGirl, on 08 December 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

i agree. in any case respect is earned, or commanded by actions. it's never 'deserved' in the sense that it's automatically assumed.

Exactly.. Respect needed to be earned.. The act the two men put on earned something alight, they earned the laughter of so many who saw it.

I have to admit though,  the man pretending to be possessed was a bit funny lol

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#87    Jessica Christ

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 07:54 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 08 December 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

I have a question for you.

Where is the line? By that I mean when does it become acceptable to act when something is wrong.

To me there's a clear line and that line is when culture A harms someone. It doesn't matter to me if the people harmed are part lof the culture or outside or it,  in any case that harm is wrong and it should be condemned. It shouldn't be excused. To take your example of an adult and a child. If a child is a bully and is hurting other children should the adult just stand by and do nothing, or should the adult step in to stop it?

Sometimes to get a group to understand you must condemn what thye're doing or else they won't learn. Like with the child that's a bully. If no one condemns the child's actions, it will assume they're ok and keep doing it. Sometimes condemnation isn't immature, but is actually the right thing to do.

Also people within a cultural can make a change, but they need to be empowered to do so, otherwise they never will.

When does it become acceptable to act when you find something wrong?

I don't necessarily agree that we have to act in the first place. What we find wrong might not be wrong to others, why should our own personal sensibilities trump all others? Also laws are in place and if violated then acts and practices should be investigated. When law are specifically made to target the culture of a community then the question becomes sticky because it can seem like a majority culture persecuting a minority culture becuase they do things differently.

I do find the line will be different in every instance but that at times a line indeed must be crossed and action must be taken.

I support the laws in California that bans practices disguising as medical practice to "cure" homosexuality. I don't support making fun of other cultures who practice what "we" consider harmful. Many can point to us and say we also have our own harmful practices that make us look backward, that should be outlawed, that our culture supports evil things.

I accept the ambiguity of those who claim they condemn this because it is a harmful practice yet turn around and demand they should be given the right to laugh at them? Many would claim they are confused but I love these examples of holding two different and seemingly opposite opinions at the same time.

When I see the video I see nothing to make fun of, I see a person who is repressing his homosexuality and will be harmed, that is not a laughing matter to me at all.

Secondly, the belief that everyone who is human deserves respect because they are human comes from a superior sense of ethics than pretending only those who can pass our arbitrary judgment of them deserve it, when that is based on having others share the same sensibilities as us or at least not offend the ones we hold, which is just approving of others just like us and disapproving of those who are different, and that belief while far removed from believing only those of the same skin color as you deserve respect is still on the same side of scale as that because both demand that others be just more like them than different.

Edited by I believe you, 08 December 2012 - 07:59 PM.


#88    shadowhive

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 08:22 PM

View PostI believe you, on 08 December 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

When does it become acceptable to act when you find something wrong?

Ok let's give you a basic example.

Here in the Uk multiple cultures live side by side, as they do in many countries. In such countries there is one law. Not one law for culture A and one for B and one for C, but one which coers everyone. So if people of culture A think it's acceptable to beat women or murder people the law and people of culture's B and C condemns them for their actions. Is that unaccceptable?

It's rather naive of you to think that the actions of one culture only effects that culture. In places where multiple cultures co-exist, a harmful belief of one culture can effect many other cultures. Cultures are hardly isolated.

Quote

I don't necessarily agree that we have to act in the first place. What we find wrong might not be wrong to others, why should our own personal sensibilities trump all others? Also laws are in place and if violated then acts and practices should be investigated. When law are specifically made to target the culture of a community then the question becomes sticky because it can seem like a majority culture persecuting a minority culture becuase they do things differently.

That raises numerous problems doesn't it? Laws are in place to ensure somesensibilities trump others. Indeed, when a culture's belief is wrong (and violates a law) it should be out and out condemned. It shouldn't be given a free pass by virtue of 'oh it's just their culture'. Why should it?

Just because something is a belief of a culture does not suddenly make it ok or permissable.

Quote

I do find the line will be different in every instance but that at times a line indeed must be crossed and action must be taken.

I support the laws in California that bans practices disguising as medical practice to "cure" homosexuality. I don't support making fun of other cultures who practice what "we" consider harmful. Many can point to us and say we also have our own harmful practices that make us look backward, that should be outlawed, that our culture supports evil things.

The ban is a good thing, but it's being challenged by people with backwards thinking. That should be universally condemned, regardless of the culture. The harm such things cause is very real and we know this, so we should act to make sure it stops happening.

The ban is an example of something I said above. It solves a problem effecting many people in a place where there's multiple cultures and yet one culture wants to continue harming people.

Quote

I accept the ambiguity of those who claim they condemn this because it is a harmful practice yet turn around and demand they should be given the right to laugh at them? Many would claim they are confused but I love these examples of holding two different and seemingly opposite opinions at the same time.

I've not laughed at them. I condemn them. I think they're fools and I pity them.

Quote

When I see the video I see nothing to make fun of, I see a person who is repressing his homosexuality and will be harmed, that is not a laughing matter to me at all.

Secondly, the belief that everyone who is human deserves respect because they are human comes from a superior sense of ethics than pretending only those who can pass our arbitrary judgment of them deserve it, when that is based on having others share the same sensibilities as us or at least not offend the ones we hold, which is just approving of others just like us and disapproving of those who are different, and that belief while far removed from believing only those of the same skin color as you deserve respect is still on the same side of scale as that because both demand that others be just more like them than different.

I'll be blunt. There are things that are wrong. Those things and beliefs, regardless of their culture or age, or anything else, don't deserve respect. I don't respect sexists, or rascists, or peope like this. They all would willingly harm people so why should they get respect?

Edited by shadowhive, 08 December 2012 - 08:30 PM.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
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#89    Jessica Christ

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 09:14 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 08 December 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

Ok let's give you a basic example.

Here in the Uk multiple cultures live side by side, as they do in many countries. In such countries there is one law. Not one law for culture A and one for B and one for C, but one which coers everyone. So if people of culture A think it's acceptable to beat women or murder people the law and people of culture's B and C condemns them for their actions. Is that unaccceptable?

In your example, laws are in place to safeguard all of society from culture A's harmful practice of domestic violence and murder of women, I support such laws and violators should be prosecuted.

Group B and C belong to the same culture but see things differently and in this example both would condemn except condemnation for group B means not respecting them, making fun of them, and focusing on the negative aspects of culture A.

For group C condemnation means to agree that those who use violence against women should be prosecuted, but that such a culture should also be understood and reasons why violence occurs should also be understood, programs should be put in place to curb such harmful practices and those programs must go beyond punitive measures alone, and that support must also be put in place for women in any epidemic of violence that victimizes women. Condemnation for group C would not mean making fun of group A, group C condemns group B for making fun of group A because group C sees that making fun of others is a harmful practice.

View Postshadowhive, on 08 December 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

It's rather naive of you to think that the actions of one culture only effects that culture. In places where multiple cultures co-exist, a harmful belief of one culture can effect many other cultures. Cultures are hardly isolated.

I never claimed to adhere to the concept of cultures existing in vacuums. I agree with your overall point.

View Postshadowhive, on 08 December 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

That raises numerous problems doesn't it? Laws are in place to ensure somesensibilities trump others. Indeed, when a culture's belief is wrong (and violates a law) it should be out and out condemned. It shouldn't be given a free pass by virtue of 'oh it's just their culture'. Why should it?

We are in agreement again. As noted above I would go further than just punishing but also include understanding and supporting this culture A which in my view is a culture in crisis and needs our help more than our condemnation. That is stricly actions which violate laws should be specifically condemned, condemnation should not extend to the whole culture.

View Postshadowhive, on 08 December 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

Just because something is a belief of a culture does not suddenly make it ok or permissable.

It may not make it OK or permissible to you. It might not be permissible to me.

View Postshadowhive, on 08 December 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

The ban is a good thing, but it's being challenged by people with backwards thinking. That should be universally condemned, regardless of the culture. The harm such things cause is very real and we know this, so we should act to make sure it stops happening.

I agree their thinking is backward. But wanting them to be universally condemned is also backward.

When there are two groups who have to live with each other and half think one way, half another, then we should continue the dialogue without condemnation or wanting to see "universal condemnation" against the other side, it won't be coming immediately.

We have to wait until one side begins to win the field of ideas, then the other idea will die out naturally, it will be universally condemned then. For now we have to understand half of the people think differently than us and we must respect them, not pretend their view does not exist by claiming everyone is against it when that is not necessarily true, we have to try and work with them, but also be encouraged ourselves that the world is changing, the youth won't stand for it, and that eventually no matter how the appeal goes, the law will eventually see homosexual therapy banned for good. Progress is not about speed but direction.

View Postshadowhive, on 08 December 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

The ban is an example of something I said above. It solves a problem effecting many people in a place where there's multiple cultures and yet one culture wants to continue harming people.

The ban should be democracy in action, nothing more or less. There are practices both domestic (we have had forever as tradition) and foreign (immigrants bringing them in) which both need society at large to have a conversation and decide a direction. We have a way to go but making fun of people or simply claiming they are wrong is not part of the path of progress.

View Postshadowhive, on 08 December 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

've not laughed at them. I condemn them. I think they're fools and I pity them.

I was speaking in general, never claimed you made fun of them, thinking they are fools and pitying them is very close to making fun of them in either case. You might find them foolish and pity them, I would rather understand and help them without being negative.

View Postshadowhive, on 08 December 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

I'll be blunt. There are things that are wrong. Those things and beliefs, regardless of their culture or age, or anything else, don't deserve respect. I don't respect sexists, or rascists, or peope like this. They all would willingly harm people so why should they get respect?

When one group of people do not respect another they can do awful things to them.

I am glad society has safeguards to protect homosexuals from the far-right religious zealots, and we are continuing to strenghten those safeguards, but I am equally glad society has safeguards to protect the religous zealots from people who do not respect them.


#90    shadowhive

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 10:06 PM

View PostI believe you, on 08 December 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

In your example, laws are in place to safeguard all of society from culture A's harmful practice of domestic violence and murder of women, I support such laws and violators should be prosecuted.

Group B and C belong to the same culture but see things differently and in this example both would condemn except condemnation for group B means not respecting them, making fun of them, and focusing on the negative aspects of culture A.

For group C condemnation means to agree that those who use violence against women should be prosecuted, but that such a culture should also be understood and reasons why violence occurs should also be understood, programs should be put in place to curb such harmful practices and those programs must go beyond punitive measures alone, and that support must also be put in place for women in any epidemic of violence that victimizes women. Condemnation for group C would not mean making fun of group A, group C condemns group B for making fun of group A because group C sees that making fun of others is a harmful practice.

I never said condemnation alone should be the only way. Yes, help should be provided, but (and this is a big but) there should be no concessions made. Instead of understanding a culture and giving it excuses, education should be put in place to curb whatever the practice is. The express purpose should be to remove the practice completely.

Again, I don't think 'making fun' is the way to go, but if something should be condemned, then it should be condemned.

Quote

I never claimed to adhere to the concept of cultures existing in vacuums. I agree with your overall point.

Several times you seemed to make out like what one culture does only effects said cuture and no one else should have any say, that change should ONLY come from within. That, to me, suggested that cultures existed in vacuums.

Quote

We are in agreement again. As noted above I would go further than just punishing but also include understanding and supporting this culture A which in my view is a culture in crisis and needs our help more than our condemnation. That is stricly actions which violate laws should be specifically condemned, condemnation should not extend to the whole culture.

I worry about those terms. Should a culture be supported and understood Yes. But when when it has something in place that's dangerous, That part needs to be exorcised completely. Not understood. Not supported. Removed. Only with such a removal would a culture survive. If a culture cannot survive the removal of harmful practices? Then it should just be allowed to fail.

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It may not make it OK or permissible to you. It might not be permissible to me.

Meaning?

Quote

I agree their thinking is backward. But wanting them to be universally condemned is also backward.

When there are two groups who have to live with each other and half think one way, half another, then we should continue the dialogue without condemnation or wanting to see "universal condemnation" against the other side, it won't be coming immediately.

We have to wait until one side begins to win the field of ideas, then the other idea will die out naturally, it will be universally condemned then. For now we have to understand half of the people think differently than us and we must respect them, not pretend their view does not exist by claiming everyone is against it when that is not necessarily true, we have to try and work with them, but also be encouraged ourselves that the world is changing, the youth won't stand for it, and that eventually no matter how the appeal goes, the law will eventually see homosexual therapy banned for good. Progress is not about speed but direction.

Ok. I have a reasoning for wanting them universally condemend. Let me run you through it. For the better part of 2 millenia, gay people have been persecuted, imprisoned, tortured and killed because of the beliefs of said culture. It still happens to this day beccause of the belief of said culture. Personally, I think it's done it's bit to deserve universeral condemnation and I don't think it's backward, far from it.

A dialogue is possible and yes, I think it needs working on, but some elements in the culure are just not interest and that's where the problem lies. The bible and koran says homosexuality is a sin and that's enough for them to give them license to do all sorts of cruel things. And you know what? Since they believe 'homosexuality is a sin' dialogue is not an option. A mandate from their diety overrides anything any human organisation of government could say.

I don't think the view doesn't exist. I think it does exist and it's a dangerous view. it shouldn't be respected or encouraged.

And religion is not about progress. That's part of the problem. It resists it.

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The ban should be democracy in action, nothing more or less. There are practices both domestic (we have had forever as tradition) and foreign (immigrants bringing them in) which both need society at large to have a conversation and decide a direction. We have a way to go but making fun of people or simply claiming they are wrong is not part of the path of progress.

The ban should be relatively simple. A practice harms people. There is evidence it does. That should be that. It should be open and shut, but it's not. It's dragged out even though the proof of harm is visible.

It's not a 'claim' that they are wrong. It's a fact.

Quote

I was speaking in general, never claimed you made fun of them, thinking they are fools and pitying them is very close to making fun of them in either case. You might find them foolish and pity them, I would rather understand and help them without being negative.

I've tried to understand them. The problem is they're past reasoning. I've had conversations here with people that are otherwise intelligent,, reasonable people. But when it comes to this? The word of god trumps human beings.

I'm not making fun of them when I say those things, it's what I think. Ipity them because they should know better, because their religious belief disables their compassion. Because they don't care about other human beings because god says so. I think they're foolish because they allow their morals to hang on a book that's almost 2 millenia old and that they won't progress beyond it, regardless of the evidence before them.

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When one group of people do not respect another they can do awful things to them.

I am glad society has safeguards to protect homosexuals from the far-right religious zealots, and we are continuing to strenghten those safeguards, but I am equally glad society has safeguards to protect the religous zealots from people who do not respect them.

That's the problem isn't it? There's protections for gay people, but protections for those zealots that wish to harm them. All that does is create problems, especially when they're against each other.

Back to the ban. It's being contested. By who? Religious zealots,

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."




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