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Why Do Great Nations Fall?


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#1    LucidElement

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 11:36 AM

Hey Everyone, its been a while since I've been on this sight, I guess one of the biggest reason's I have not been is because people just say things to get there post count up, uneducated things and/or what not. Trust me, Ive been a member of this sight since about 90% of you. =) ... But anyway (i still respect the community of U.M, and I appreciate what Saruman has put together), I had a great conversation with a friend of mine tonight. One thing lead to another (literally) and before we knew it, we were talking about why the greatest nation's have fallen, (ex; Egypt, Rome, Constantinople, Etc) His explantion, summarized, came down to a simple word, "Communication." These countries have fallen because of the lack of communication...

Now, if you look at the U.S.A, as scary as it might be, many people do not understand what is happening outside the box. There are people that are educated, book smart, read up, follow what is happening in this country... then there are those other people who do not care what is going on, do not follow what is happening or just leave it up to others to fix the problems.... Right there proves the point in which as a whole the country of the U.S.A is not communicating.. There was many more things said and backed up with facts, but as a generality, I thought I would say this and see what you all think. Are we at risk of truly falling? let's try and leave the politcs out of it please if at all possible. Because, that right there can always trigger another topic. Take this question at face value.. If you can stray away from political conversation then by all means please back it up with data. Im looking very forward to reading up on this.

Thanks Guys!

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#2    Eldorado

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 11:46 AM

Complacency and greed.

In my opinion.

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#3    ThickasaBrick

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 12:03 PM

Outside of foreign invaders, I would say internal strife. A gov't which separates itself from its people. Regardless of the form of gov't, monarchy, republic, theocracy, etc, it is dependent upon the people, the foundation. As with a tree whose roots are rotted or not deep enough, a strong gust from the right direction at the right time will bring it toppling down. Gov'ts of the world need to accept the fact that they only have power due to the will of the people, if the people decide to provide the right gust at the right time the gov't will fall. The people generally providing that gust may have the right ideas in mind, unfortunately even some of the best of people are corrupted by the power they seek.


#4    Royal

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 12:25 PM

I've always thought that in the case of the USA,the downfall will be our influence on so much of the world will eventually make us irrelevant and a burden that we will eventually be assimilated into whatever culture is closest{probably Latino}.

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#5    Habitat

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 12:28 PM

Corrupt social and economic order.


#6    Emma_Acid

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 12:35 PM

In his book Collapse, Jared Diamond lists several factos main factors: three of them are to do with failure to adapt to environmental issues, and two about neighbouring societies - either a hostile one or the collapse of a supporting one.

The environmental one is pretty clear. Essentially, over-use of resources has caused more major societies to collapse than any other factor.

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#7    questionmark

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 12:38 PM

Every nation has its own set of circumstances that made it fall, all I can tell you is the indicators, the reasons are multiple.

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#8    Martyn1967

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 12:52 PM

I think the first response sums it up well. If you want to put in into one word then it would be, greed!

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#9    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 12:54 PM

View PostMartyn1967, on 16 August 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

I think the first response sums it up well. If you want to put in into one word then it would be, greed!

Inflation destroyed the Roman Empire and threat of it made us Brits dismantle ours.

Once a voice is given to subregated peoples its hard for a great nation to start back up again. The reason is they are in your Senate or Parliament creating a fuss at anyone wanting an Empire back.


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Posted 16 August 2012 - 12:59 PM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 16 August 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

Inflation destroyed the Roman Empire and threat of it made us Brits dismantle ours.

Once a voice is given to subregated peoples its hard for a great nation to start back up again. The reason is they are in your Senate or Parliament creating a fuss at anyone wanting an Empire back.

The incapability of fighting their own wars with their own means destroyed both. The Romans had to hire the Germanic tribes (which became the next power) and the British ask help from the Americans, who then became the next power.

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#11    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 01:15 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 16 August 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

The incapability of fighting their own wars with their own means destroyed both. The Romans had to hire the Germanic tribes (which became the next power) and the British ask help from the Americans, who then became the next power.

The Romans sank because famine pushed the price of grain up.

Unable to afford the cost of grain the Senate was forced to inflate the money supply. Skyrocketing inflation made them cut their budget spending by reducing the amount of legions they had, withdrawing them to Rome and abandoning many territories. Barbarians then invaded destroyed the Western Roman Empire. The Eastern Roman Empire with its capital as Constantinople survived on for a few more centuries before it too fell.

The British Empire fell because after WW1, the Great Depression and WW2 we were effectively bankrupt. This put us in the position where we either inflated the money supply or let the empire go. Inflaton would have resulted in the same outcome.

Edited by Mr Right Wing, 16 August 2012 - 01:16 PM.


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Posted 16 August 2012 - 01:23 PM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 16 August 2012 - 01:15 PM, said:

The Romans sank because famine pushed the price of grain up.

Unable to afford the cost of grain the Senate was forced to inflate the money supply. Skyrocketing inflation made them cut their budget spending by reducing the amount of legions they had, withdrawing them to Rome and abandoning many territories. Barbarians then invaded destroyed the Western Roman Empire. The Eastern Roman Empire with its capital as Constantinople survived on for a few more centuries before it too fell.

The British Empire fell because after WW1, the Great Depression and WW2 we were effectively bankrupt. This put us in the position where we either inflated the money supply or let the empire go. Inflaton would have resulted in the same outcome.

The West Romans came crashing down because their own mercenaries turned against them because they were unable to pay and unable to keep all other promises given, the East Romans (Byzantines) because they needed the help of  off the catholic countries to fend off the Turks who were pissed because the catholic countries were launching crusades against them, help that never came. The price of wheat had little to do with it in both cases.

The inflation that crashed Britain was in part due to the debt incurred with America to fight WWI. The rest because it was not capable of making any money from the colonies, which required more and more money that had to come from somewhere.

So basically: Because they were incapable of fighting their wars without outside help.

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#13    Socio

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 01:30 PM

View PostEldorado, on 16 August 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

Complacency and greed.

In my opinion.

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and thurst for power and control of the many by few.


#14    Socio

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 01:33 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 16 August 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

The West Romans came crashing down because their own mercenaries turned against them because they were unable to pay and unable to keep all other promises given, the East Romans (Byzantines) because they needed the help of  off the catholic countries to fend off the Turks who were pissed because the catholic countries were launching crusades against them, help that never came. The price of wheat had little to do with it in both cases.

The inflation that crashed Britain was in part due to the debt incurred with America to fight WWI. The rest because it was not capable of making any money from the colonies, which required more and more money that had to come from somewhere.

So basically: Because they were incapable of fighting their wars without outside help.

Similarly that what is going on in Europe today with forced austerity and will eventually take place in the US.


#15    questionmark

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 01:45 PM

View PostSocio, on 16 August 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

Similarly that what is going on in Europe today with forced austerity and will eventually take place in the US.

The forced austerity will fix more than it will destroy, kicking the can down the road as in the US and Britain will crash the system.

You don't get out of debt by making more debt and the Western world is almost at the end of its growths potential. Nobody will get out of debt by growing economies, especially not those who already owe more than 100% of their GDP.

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