71 replies to this topic

[scowl]

Bluefinger, on 27 November 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

If you want to hear God speak, I recommend following the teachings of Jesus.  If nobody has any disagreement that Jesus was a good man, then perhaps the fact that many don't practice his teachings is not sufficient evidence that God does not talk to people today.

In Matthew 15:4, Jesus agreed with God that disobedient children should be killed.

Does this sound like a good man? Does this sound like a good god? Any god that tells me I'm obligated to kill my children when they get mad at me is a god I'm not going to listen to.

[Sean93]

scowl, on 27 November 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

No I want the correct version, the one that will keep me out of hell. Everyone tells me the Bible is wrong. Even Jesus couldn't keep track of the Commandments!

There is no one version. You'll look in vain because even among religious sects, there are internal squabbles and splinter groups that can't agree. It all comes down to what connects with you, what clicks with you I guess. For me? It's the universe and our unprivilaged position in it that drives me.

I don't see the point in asking another Human Being which faith or creed is the right one because they'll obviously give you their religion/creed/faith as the right one which subsequently leaves out the other thousand's. Go read for yourself and explore the world and it's faiths (if you really want to) and see if you can find an answer yourself.

Edited by Sean93, 27 November 2012 - 05:51 PM.

[Bluefinger]

scowl, on 27 November 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

No I want the correct version, the one that will keep me out of hell. Everyone tells me the Bible is wrong. Even Jesus couldn't keep track of the Commandments!

The Pharisees kept every single commandment.  

Why, then, did they draw so much condemnation from Jesus?  And why was their city and temple destroyed and their people sold as slaves to countries far away?  If keeping the commandments is the way to heaven, why didn't they ever see it?

[Bluefinger]

scowl, on 27 November 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

In Matthew 15:4, Jesus agreed with God that disobedient children should be killed.

?  That is not what Jesus was saying.  You are picking one verse out and putting it to you own context.  

What does the entire chapter say?  You may find that your accusation is wrong.  

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Does this sound like a good man? Does this sound like a good god? Any god that tells me I'm obligated to kill my children when they get mad at me is a god I'm not going to listen to.

Again, read the entire chapter.  In the chapter, the scribes asked Jesus why he lets his disciples break the commandments.  To this Jesus states the fourth commandment and asks them why they make up traditions to get around it.  The scribes dishonored their parents by taking their earnings and dedicating it to the service of God (called Corbin) and withholding what their parents may need.  Why were they not killed according to the fourth commandment?  Because they were hypocrites.

Jesus fulfilled the law and expanded it.  He gave a new commandment:  "Love thy neighbor as thyself," which wasn't really new at all.

"You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but  you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the  Lord." (Leviticus 19:18 ESV)

Leviticus 19 is filled with really good commands.  So good, in fact, it seems to be altogether an entirely different set of commandments.

[Mr Walker]

scowl, on 27 November 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

No I want the correct version, the one that will keep me out of hell. Everyone tells me the Bible is wrong. Even Jesus couldn't keep track of the Commandments!

Then think and act on earth as you know you should ,if you would like to get into a heaven after death. Dont lie, cheat, stea,l hurt others, etc That includes cheating on our partner or wife, hurting yourself or others etc
jesus knew the commandments perfectly. He explained how he came to fulfil them. then he reformatted them reinforced them and made them even tougher to obey, saying all must be obeyed from love not fear or legalism.

That the commandments were made for men, not men for the commandments. He went on to say that sin begins in the heart and mind, and does not have to be acted out to be a sin. BUT, he explained how god forgives sin. How our human failings are washed away and cleansed by his blood, and how all we have to do is try to be good and to repent, make restitution, and then try not to sin again.
Plus, dont get too attached to the material world. The kingdom of god is a spiritual place within us, and one can't enter into it, if one is too tied to the material world.

[scowl]

Mr Walker, on 28 November 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

Then think and act on earth as you know you should ,

I know people in jail who've done that!

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if you would like to get into a heaven after death. Dont lie, cheat, stea,l hurt others, etc That includes cheating on our partner or wife, hurting yourself or others etc

The Bible is full of heroes who were liars, cheaters and stealers. I don't understand that.

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jesus knew the commandments perfectly.

No he didn't. When asked which commandments to follow in both Matthew 19:17 and Luke 18:18, Jesus could only name five correctly. In these two versions of the story he came up with a sixth one ("Love thy neighbor") but that one had never been a commandment. To make things worse, in Mark 10:17, Jesus was quoted as saying yet another false commandment ("Defraud not"). This showed how little Jesus knew about God's teachings.

Quote

He explained how he came to fulfil them. then he reformatted them reinforced them and made them even tougher to obey, saying all must be obeyed from love not fear or legalism.

So if you love your wife, cheat on her. No need for legalism!

Quote

That the commandments were made for men, not men for the commandments. He went on to say that sin begins in the heart and mind, and does not have to be acted out to be a sin.

I can't find that anywhere. Are you just making this up? The Bible warns of false prophets and how they'll mislead people into sin.

Quote

BUT, he explained how god forgives sin. How our human failings are washed away and cleansed by his blood, and how all we have to do is try to be good and to repent, make restitution, and then try not to sin again.

I went through the Bible. Here's the list I've come up with so far:

• Marry someone who is a Christian
  
• Burn your possessions
  
• Always be hungry.
  
• Call on the name of the Lord (whatever that means)
  
• Wait for Jesus to return since he's returning very soon.
  
• Be tempted all the time but pass on temptation.
  
• Just believe in Jesus, nothing else.
  
• Get Baptised. Nothing else.
  
• Do good works.
  
• Don't do good works because they don't count.
  
• Forsake all of your possessions.
  
• Don't get married.
  
• Obey the King and the government.
  
• Never never never never doubt!
  
• Never think about the past.
  
• Move to Israel (everyone will be saved there).
  
• Be so frightened of God that you cry when you pray.
  
• Be poor (they get a free ride to heaven).
  
• Give your enemies money.
  
• Be humble.

I may have missed some but these were the highlights.

Quote

Plus, dont get too attached to the material world. The kingdom of god is a spiritual place within us, and one can't enter into it, if one is too tied to the material world.

Does this mean I shouldn't recycle or worry about the environment?

I see fancy churches and wealthy Christians with big houses and nice cars everywhere. They seem to be very attached to material things.

[Mr Walker]

scowl, on 28 November 2012 - 06:55 PM, said:

I know people in jail who've done that!



The Bible is full of heroes who were liars, cheaters and stealers. I don't understand that.



No he didn't. When asked which commandments to follow in both Matthew 19:17 and Luke 18:18, Jesus could only name five correctly. In these two versions of the story he came up with a sixth one ("Love thy neighbor") but that one had never been a commandment. To make things worse, in Mark 10:17, Jesus was quoted as saying yet another false commandment ("Defraud not"). This showed how little Jesus knew about God's teachings.



So if you love your wife, cheat on her. No need for legalism!



I can't find that anywhere. Are you just making this up? The Bible warns of false prophets and how they'll mislead people into sin.



I went through the Bible. Here's the list I've come up with so far:

• Marry someone who is a Christian
  
• Burn your possessions
  
• Always be hungry.
  
• Call on the name of the Lord (whatever that means)
  
• Wait for Jesus to return since he's returning very soon.
  
• Be tempted all the time but pass on temptation.
  
• Just believe in Jesus, nothing else.
  
• Get Baptised. Nothing else.
  
• Do good works.
  
• Don't do good works because they don't count.
  
• Forsake all of your possessions.
  
• Don't get married.
  
• Obey the King and the government.
  
• Never never never never doubt!
  
• Never think about the past.
  
• Move to Israel (everyone will be saved there).
  
• Be so frightened of God that you cry when you pray.
  
• Be poor (they get a free ride to heaven).
  
• Give your enemies money.
  
• Be humble.

I may have missed some but these were the highlights.



Does this mean I shouldn't recycle or worry about the environment?

I see fancy churches and wealthy Christians with big houses and nice cars everywhere. They seem to be very attached to material things.

You asked me my opinion on the bible.

I dont think anyone would go to gaol for acting in a way that they thought would be suitable to act in heaven.

The bible is full of men and women. they are human and thus sin. God can forgive them. Even noah became a sinner in time.

Jesus knew all the commandments. He said he was the fulfilment of them. Jesus had been a jewish scholar since a very young child. Of course he knew somthing as basic as that. As other posters pointed out, christ was making a point in this conversation; something he was prone to do.

No as christ said, even thinking about cheating on your wife is a sin. It hurts you and your relationship with god within you. physicaly cheating on her hurts her you, and your society. It breaks several of the commandments in principle, but especially, it is not an act of love.
And no i am not making it up. Iti s one of the critical  pivot points as to how christ acts as a fulcrum or balance point between the old testament and the new. It is at the core of why christianity is a different faith to judaism.

Insead of looking at your list, study and understand the teaching /learning intent of each item on the list. That will help.


You  also miss out a lot of critical points like the parables of the good samaritan and the prodigal son. Study the words of christ and how he behaved to people That will help more. It is not the only way to become one with god, but it can work.
No you are a steward of the earth. You have a particular responsibilty to be environmentaly conscious and reduce your ecological footprint.  It would be best to be a vegetarian, not fly anywhere, buy only recycled goods, and not consume more than you need for a healthy life.

You also need to share all you have with others less fortunate, because all you have came from god in the first place.

That doesnt mean give it all away. Remember the parable of the talents. Use your  talents wisely as the good steward did, and you will have more to return to the master  for his use (eg caring for other humans)
IMHO such christians must have a lot of difficulty maintaining a living relationship with god, but that is between them and god. I am only responsible for myself, and for my relationship with god.

Ps the apparent dichotomy over good works is easily resolved. Good works wont get you into heaven and aren't necessary to do so. BUT a person who loves god and his fellow man will naturally do good works as an outcome of that love. Thus one of the indicators of a person who  truly and fully loves god will always be how they act towards themselves and others. if you love others like yourselff and as god loves you, you wont be able to stop yourself doing "good things" for others. And this will be quite obvious to all around you.

Edited by Mr Walker, 30 November 2012 - 10:42 AM.

[Sherapy]

Mr Walker, on 30 November 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

You asked me my opinion on the bible.

I dont think anyone would go to gaol for acting in a way that they thought would be suitable to act in heaven.

The bible is full of men and women. they are human and thus sin. God can forgive them. Even noah became a sinner in time.

Jesus knew all the commandments. He said he was the fulfilment of them. Jesus had been a jewish scholar since a very young child. Of course he knew somthing as basic as that. As other posters pointed out, christ was making a point in this conversation; something he was prone to do.

No as christ said, even thinking about cheating on your wife is a sin. It hurts you and your relationship with god within you. physicaly cheating on her hurts her you, and your society. It breaks several of the commandments in principle, but especially, it is not an act of love.
And no i am not making it up. Iti s one of the critical  pivot points as to how christ acts as a fulcrum or balance point between the old testament and the new. It is at the core of why christianity is a different faith to judaism.

Insead of looking at your list, study and understand the teaching /learning intent of each item on the list. That will help.


You  also miss out a lot of critical points like the parables of the good samaritan and the prodigal son. Study the words of christ and how he behaved to people That will help more. It is not the only way to become one with god, but it can work.
No you are a steward of the earth. You have a particular responsibilty to be environmentaly conscious and reduce your ecological footprint.  It would be best to be a vegetarian, not fly anywhere, buy only recycled goods, and not consume more than you need for a healthy life.

You also need to share all you have with others less fortunate, because all you have came from god in the first place.

That doesnt mean give it all away. Remember the parable of the talents. Use your  talents wisely as the good steward did, and you will have more to return to the master  for his use (eg caring for other humans)
IMHO such christians must have a lot of difficulty maintaining a living relationship with god, but that is between them and god. I am only responsible for myself, and for my relationship with god.

Ps the apparent dichotomy over good works is easily resolved. Good works wont get you into heaven and aren't necessary to do so. BUT a person who loves god and his fellow man will naturally do good works as an outcome of that love. Thus one of the indicators of a person who  truly and fully loves god will always be how they act towards themselves and others. if you love others like yourselff and as god loves you, you wont be able to stop yourself doing "good things" for others. And this will be quite obvious to all around you.

MW, If two people decide that for them cheating is not the direction that they want to take the relationship, then of course, for them it would be best to have no cheating as a guiding principle and one could find all kinds of ideologies to support this approach-- including  yours.

Synonymously-- it is naivety to suggest that their are not couples or other manners of 'being' in relationships. For some couples  sexual variety would be a workable/welcome aspect of their relationship; in fact, it could suit them.


I think-- the day of exclusively 'traditional' has evolved to include the understanding that there is more then one way to find a happily ever after.

This is not to say I do not get or appreciate that you prefer a firm hand when it comes to  your own human nature, it is definitely a way of handling life, but a relationship based on what works grounded in the sole preferences of the people involved can cultivate good relationships too. My hubby and I find that  monogamy is what works best for us, for no other reason then it is what is working for us right now, and we think that other couples have the right to decide this for themselves too, just like we did and if they reach a different conclusion, then that is cool too.

[Mr Walker]

Sherapy, on 30 November 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:

MW, If two people decide that for them cheating is not the direction that they want to take the relationship, then of course, for them it would be best to have no cheating as a guiding principle and one could find all kinds of ideologies to support this approach-- including  yours.

Synonymously-- it is naivety to suggest that their are not couples or other manners of 'being' in relationships. For some couples  sexual variety would be a workable/welcome aspect of their relationship; in fact, it could suit them.


I think-- the day of exclusively 'traditional' has evolved to include the understanding that there is more then one way to find a happily ever after.

This is not to say I do not get or appreciate that you prefer a firm hand when it comes to  your own human nature, it is definitely a way of handling life, but a relationship based on what works grounded in the sole preferences of the people involved can cultivate good relationships too. My hubby and I find that  monogamy is what works best for us, for no other reason then it is what is working for us right now, and we think that other couples have the right to decide this for themselves too, just like we did and if they reach a different conclusion, then that is cool too.

Sexual variety is not  necessarily cheating.

But lieing to, and deceiving, a partner you have promised to be faithful to, is. It depends  on how you establish a relationship, what the parameters are, and how open it is.

That said, I am old fashioned enough to believe in  monogamous marriage for life. It worked exceptionally well for all my family for centuries, and it works to day for all my current near and extended family. We have huge advantages over families which are split up, separated and then reformed around new partners, in laws, grandparents, extended relatives etc. The same is true for my wifes family, historically and today.

Children of broken marriages are considerably disadvantaged; financially, scholastically, emotionally, and psychologically; using all modern statistical indicators.
If it does not work for some, then I think they need to look at them selves and their priorities, and work out why they cannot remain faithful to one partner for life. I am not talking about abusive relationships, but ordinary marriages. In many cases it is simple selfishness, and putting "me"  and my wants/ needs first, before others.

Edited by Mr Walker, 01 December 2012 - 05:12 AM.

[KrowMax]

God Will Reveal Himself to us on a proper time ....To actually see God is wort waiting...

[Reann]

KrowMax, on 13 December 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

God Will Reveal Himself to us on a proper time ....To actually see God is wort waiting...

God 's nature is imprinted upon the entire universe , in that God is revealed, but I don't know about actually visually seeing some being " God " . God revealed a part of himself for us in Jesus. The word became flesh .

[Beckys_Mom]

EDIT .. sorry wrong post

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 13 December 2012 - 03:10 PM.