42 replies to this topic

[Sean93]

I'd say Commandment 7 is unacceptable to me for the simple fact that the dude who gave it did a lot of killing himself - Practice what you preach pal, lead by example not fear.

Yes, do not kill is a good thing for sure, but that's like your father killing lots of people and then saying "By the way, killing is wrong and if you do it I'l redden your ****"

Edited by Sean93, 06 December 2012 - 01:38 AM.

[Beckys_Mom]

This is a little known tale of how God came to give the Jews the Ten Commandments.

God first went to the Egyptians and asked them if they would like a commandment. "What's a commandment?" they asked. "Well, it's like, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," replied God. The Egyptians thought about it and then said, "No way, that would ruin our weekends."

So then God went to the Assyrians and asked them if they would like a commandment. They also asked, "What's a commandment?" "Well," said God, "It's like, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL." The Assyrians immediately replied, "No way. That would ruin our economy."

So finally God went to the Jews and asked them if they wanted a commandment. They asked, "How much?" God said, "They're free." The Jews said, "Great! We'll take TEN!"    

source: http://www.jokes4us....dmentsjoke.html

[Darkwind]

1-4 are out, I don't follow the Abrahamic religions. Though a day off is ok by me, but I am sleeping in thanks. Been out all night worshiping those other Gods and Goddesses in the woods.  I think the Wiccan Rede works better, it is simple and to the point.
"Harm none, do as you will."  Believe it or not that can be tricky.
This article explains it.
http://www.witchvox....=basics&id=2876

[Jinxdom]

I believe them all to be fine, just how you look at it.

Thou shall not kill is really thou shall not murder. The translatation just got borked. With the stories of the bible they try to show you what murder is... (IE causing death when both groups are not at agreement).

Don't worship other gods is more like don't follow fake gods. IE fundamentalist version of any creator or somebody like the pope or royality or I don't know Jesus, Basically put nobody is above their creator(Which ever it may be) so don't worship them.

Thou shall not steal is more along the lines of choices and not property. Ie Do not steal choices away from people. If you take away a person's ability to get food you are stealing from them. If you make them a slave you are stealing from them.

Do not commit adultery. Don't cheat on your on your equal and your opposite in any form of union. (Any agreement between two people is exactly... people just keep it as marriage and then miss the whole meaning of it.)


Don't work on the Sabbath. That's easy enough don't work on your day of rest and don't force anybody to work on theirs. Basically put everybody deserves a break... so don't be a dick.

6 days of work 1 day of rest. Being forced to work all the time to live is slavery. Unwilling or not you miss out on the good things in your life if you do.

Don't say God's name in vein. Basically don't make a joke out of what created you or your making yourself to be nothing more then a joke. More about self-respect then anything else.

Honor your father and mother. That's more along the lines of don't hate on things that made you. Hating anything that created you... is hating yourself. Which is a bad way to run around life if you ask me.

Don't bear false testimoney. Basically tell the truth when it truly matters.. It's ok to say your wifey her butt doesn't look big in those pants but protecting a child molester is not cool.

Don't covet your neighbors stuff, Don't be jealous of your neighbors possessions it's only stuff. Put your focus on what really matters.


This is why Jesus had that whole I didn't come here to break the rules but to define them thing because people were taking them waaaay to literally(following the law to the letter and not considering what things actually meant) instead of the spirit of the law.

It's basically common sense stuff that people screwed up to prove common sense isn't exactly common anymore.

[LRW]

That so called God says thou shall not kill. So says the raging lunatic of a murderer in the bible thats considered as a God. Hypocrite! That God comes across as an egotistical maniac.

[scowl]

Jinxdom, on 06 December 2012 - 05:05 AM, said:

Don't worship other gods is more like don't follow fake gods.

The term "false gods" is in the Old Testament a few times but not here. Why didn't this Commandment say "false gods"? It's because there are or were other gods.

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Thou shall not steal is more along the lines of choices and not property. Ie Do not steal choices away from people. If you take away a person's ability to get food you are stealing from them. If you make them a slave you are stealing from them.

Slavery is strongly endorsed as a practice and an institution repeatedly in the Bible so that can't be a correct interpretation.

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Do not commit adultery. Don't cheat on your on your equal and your opposite in any form of union. (Any agreement between two people is exactly... people just keep it as marriage and then miss the whole meaning of it.)

Wives in the Bible were in no way considered equals, more like property. Polygamists had several and sometimes hundreds of wives. No women were allowed to have more than one husband. There is no equality in this equation.

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6 days of work 1 day of rest. Being forced to work all the time to live is slavery. Unwilling or not you miss out on the good things in your life if you do.

Again, slavery is enthusiastically endorsed both Testaments so that has nothing to do with it. I also don't see how "rest" could be interpreted as party down and have a good time.

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Don't say God's name in vain. Basically don't make a joke out of what created you or you're making yourself to be nothing more than a joke. More about self-respect then anything else.

How do I respect a being who nearly exterminated all life on Earth?

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Honor your father and mother. That's more along the lines of don't hate on things that made you. Hating anything that created you... is hating yourself. Which is a bad way to run around life if you ask me.

Perhaps you could work in Child Protective Services and tell the children of alcoholic child beaters why they hate themselves when they don't honor their abusive parents.

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Don't bear false testimony. Basically tell the truth when it truly matters..

What? It's OK to lie your ass off the rest of the time? Wow!

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It's ok to say your wifey her butt doesn't look big in those pants but protecting a child molester is not cool.

You completely forgot the "against your neighbor" part. It's in the Bible for a reason. "Neighbor" is usually interpreted as "fellow Israelite" which means it's OK to lie about non-Jewish people.

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Don't covet your neighbors stuff, Don't be jealous of your neighbors possessions it's only stuff. Put your focus on what really matters.

The biggest mystery about this Commandment is why? Why is this so bad? In a list that tells people what to do, there's this one that tells you how to feel. If I like my neighbor's Xbox and I want one too, why is this a horrible sin? The worst this coveting will do is motivate me to save my money and buy one. If this is unacceptable to the teachings of Christianity then the entire American consumer economy is evil.

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This is why Jesus had that whole I didn't come here to break the rules but to define them thing because people were taking them waaaay to literally(following the law to the letter and not considering what things actually meant) instead of the spirit of the law.

Bah! Jesus couldn't even name the Ten Commandments -- he didn't even know what he was preaching against. He's the last guy I would trust to teach me the "spirit" of the Ten Commandments.

[Jinxdom]

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The term "false gods" is in the Old Testament a few times but not here. Why didn't this Commandment say "false gods"? It's because there are or were other gods.

Translation and 2000 years of people wanting to control people. Fake Gods meaning people who proclaim themselves to be God. You know the that Jesus guy that Christians worship as God(Or Mary and the Saints). Hence the switch.

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Slavery is strongly endorsed as a practice and an institution repeatedly in the Bible so that can't be a correct interpretation.

It's servitude which is endorsed which is slavery by consent. This is a language mishap. With the translation and politics put in to it. The writers are human and do follow a certain group. .

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Wives in the Bible were in no way considered equals, more like property. Polygamists had several and sometimes hundreds of wives. No women were allowed to have more than one husband. There is no equality in this equation.

Again different times and opinions of what is equal and opposite. Is many not opposite to one and since they are people equal?

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Perhaps you could work in Child Protective Services and tell the children of alcoholic child beaters why they hate themselves when they don't honor their abusive parents.

I actually did work for Child Services for about a year I quit when I wasn't allowed to actually help as needed. Your idea of honor is kinda of borked.  Hating their actions and not them makes it easier for everybody to get help. Makes it easier to let go.

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What? It's OK to lie your ass off the rest of the time? Wow!

Seriously the common sense line. Imagine a telling a story that only contained the truth(animals don't talk it's a lie!) fiction would turn in to a boring read. It's all about where, when and why you lie that matters. You forget about omitting truth as considered as lying. If you need an actual rulebook of where and when it is ok to not tell the whole truth then you need to get help. (Aka not describing what you did in explicit detail is in fact lying). Since you made a smart ass comment I think you might be clever enough to figure it out?

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You completely forgot the "against your neighbor" part. It's in the Bible for a reason. "Neighbor" is usually interpreted as "fellow Israelite" which means it's OK to lie about non-Jewish people.

Neighbor can mean anybody that lives next to you. Which you can go neighboring town neighboring state, country whatever. It's pointless and was used for propaganda(Almost like screaming omfg those guys are terrorists) which is why I didn't mention it. Years of politics and bs defined their term of neighbor. So I dropped it.

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The biggest mystery about this Commandment is why? Why is this so bad? In a list that tells people what to do, there's this one that tells you how to feel. If I like my neighbor's Xbox and I want one too, why is this a horrible sin? The worst this coveting will do is motivate me to save my money and buy one. If this is unacceptable to the teachings of Christianity then the entire American consumer economy is evil.

Material objects shouldn't matter as much as they do which was what they were getting at. but you have the right train of thought for getting something you want. Sitting there wanting only your neighbors stuff without looking elsewhere for it is quite stupid.
Putting to much love in to possessions leads down a dark path no? Remember not everybody thinks rationally when it comes to material objects.

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Bah! Jesus couldn't even name the Ten Commandments -- he didn't even know what he was preaching against. He's the last guy I would trust to teach me the "spirit" of the Ten Commandments.

Agreed. Doesn't change the fact that he tried to change them.

That help?

[Rlyeh]

Jinxdom, on 07 December 2012 - 05:29 AM, said:

It's servitude which is endorsed which is slavery by consent. This is a language mishap. With the translation and politics put in to it. The writers are human and do follow a certain group. .

You realise if the slaver owner gave his slave a wife and they produced a child, the slave owner got to keep both the wife and child when the slave left? If he didn't want to leave them, he was made a slave for life.

BS consent.

[scowl]

Jinxdom, on 07 December 2012 - 05:29 AM, said:

Translation and 2000 years of people wanting to control people. Fake Gods meaning people who proclaim themselves to be God. You know the that Jesus guy that Christians worship as God(Or Mary and the Saints). Hence the switch.

I don't recall Baal ever saying he was a god or a fake god yet in the Bible more people worship Baal as a god than God. The Israelites are completely outnumbered by people who worship other gods.

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It's servitude which is endorsed which is slavery by consent.

The Jews in Egypt didn't "consent" as a race to be slaves for hundreds of years any more than Africans as a race consented to be slaves in America. Jacob surely didn't "consent" to be kidnapped and sold into slavery by his brothers. Your belief that Biblical slavery was just "servitude" is incorrect.

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Again different times and opinions of what is equal and opposite.

The Bible has one opinion. Read it.

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Is many not opposite to one and since they are people equal?

No.

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I actually did work for Child Services for about a year I quit when I wasn't allowed to actually help as needed.

If you only worked a year then you only took reports and didn't actually work field cases.

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Your idea of honor is kinda of borked.  Hating their actions and not them makes it easier for everybody to get help. Makes it easier to let go.

I don't know what "borked" means.

I personally do not believe that a person's actions can be separated from the person who committed them. I think people who promote this concept as some twisted form of superior forgiveness perpetuate a lot of misery in society. For example abused women crawl back to their husbands because they love them despite their actions. You call this "letting go"? It does exactly the opposite.

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Seriously the common sense line.

If you've ever taken an ethics class, you would know that "common sense" doesn't exist.

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Imagine a telling a story that only contained the truth(animals don't talk it's a lie!) fiction would turn in to a boring read.

You've completely lost track of the subject. The Commandment is "Thou shalt not bare false testimony against thy neighbor". If your testimony against your neighbor includes talking animals then I would bet your testimony is false and you are not following this Commandment.

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It's all about where, when and why you lie that matters.

This is called "contextual ethics". It was made famous by Richard Nixon when he lied and lied because he had convinced himself that he was serving a greater truth by misleading everyone. I don't support this concept. It also has nothing to do with the Commandment we're discussing.

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You forget about omitting truth as considered as lying.

This is not mentioned in the Bible. There is nothing in it that commands a person to bear any testimony under any conditions. Also there is no Commandment against lying, only bearing false testimony against a neighbor.

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If you need an actual rulebook of where and when it is ok to not tell the whole truth then you need to get help. (Aka not describing what you did in explicit detail is in fact lying). Since you made a smart ass comment I think you might be clever enough to figure it out?

A "rulebook". What does this sound like?

That's right! At last you have found the fundamental problem of the Biblical rulebook called the Ten Commandments. They don't work! They make no sense in actual use! Unless you live a secluded life, you cannot follow them. That's why we created governmental law which not only tells you not to steal or murder but also tells you how to hook up a circuit breaker panel (depending on your local codes!).

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Neighbor can mean anybody that lives next to you. Which you can go neighboring town neighboring state, country whatever.

Why are you saying that "neighbor" is meaningless? If God said "neighbor" then obviously it meant something to the people God was saying it to. To follow this Commandment, you must understand what God meant by "neighbor" to His Chosen People at that time, not what it might mean if God had said it today.

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It's pointless and was used for propaganda(Almost like screaming omfg those guys are terrorists) which is why I didn't mention it. Years of politics and bs defined their term of neighbor. So I dropped it.

You rewrote a Commandment because you couldn't understand it. Do Christians do this all the time? That would explain a lot of appalling behavior I see.

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Material objects shouldn't matter as much as they do which was what they were getting at. but you have the right train of thought for getting something you want. Sitting there wanting only your neighbors stuff without looking elsewhere for it is quite stupid.

No I want better stuff than my neighbor so he'll covet my possessions.

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Putting to much love in to possessions leads down a dark path no? Remember not everybody thinks rationally when it comes to material objects.

No, I think it leads to enjoying modern life. I love my house, my central heat, my HDTV, my computer, my bicycle, my cell phone, my power tools, my tons of camera equipment and the photos I've taken with it. These things have rarely failed me unlike many people in my life who have been irrational, ignorant, judgmental, selfish and self-destructive. I'll take a well-designed product over a human any day until more humans learn to think rationally about themselves and their behavior.

[Jinxdom]

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I don't recall Baal ever saying he was a god or a fake god yet in the Bible more people worship Baal as a god than God. The Israelites are completely outnumbered by people who worship other gods.

It's more like a jab at the Egyptian Pharaohs then anything else. Who were what? Worshiped as Gods. Most Royalty ends up getting worshiped. Take any celeb for instance. It's never about the people saying they are God but people worshiping humans as God regardless of what they call themselves. Don't worship humans that better?

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The Jews in Egypt didn't "consent" as a race to be slaves for hundreds of years any more than Africans as a race consented to be slaves in America. Jacob surely didn't "consent" to be kidnapped and sold into slavery by his brothers. Your belief that Biblical slavery was just "servitude" is incorrect.

The hated slavery and liked servitude. Read the bible and who they follow and why. God asked people to do things. Hence servitude. Pharaoh forced them hence Slavery. People who took things so literal mistake the difference. Which is what is going on here. The whole bible is denoting the difference. Slavery vs Servitude. Read the whole Bible, then base you context on that not just part of one story and try to force it in to use your point. Read the whole thing for yourself.

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This is not mentioned in the Bible. There is nothing in it that commands a person to bear any testimony under any conditions. Also there is no Commandment against lying, only bearing false testimony against a neighbor.

I take out what could be seen as political influence and stick to the spirit not the letter. Bear false witness is about the difference between a story and the truth. Omit truth, drop truth, change truth, misinterpret truth are all what making truth a story? What is something that isn't the truth? At the base of it all it's called a lie. Which is why some bibles say thou shall not lie

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A "rulebook". What does this sound like?

That's right! At last you have found the fundamental problem of the Biblical rulebook called the Ten Commandments. They don't work! They make no sense in actual use! Unless you live a secluded life, you cannot follow them. That's why we created governmental law which not only tells you not to steal or murder but also tells you how to hook up a circuit breaker panel (depending on your local codes!).

Wait that's the whole reason your bent out of shape?  It's morality I'm talking about not a set of laws.

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Why are you saying that "neighbor" is meaningless? If God said "neighbor" then obviously it meant something to the people God was saying it to. To follow this Commandment, you must understand what God meant by "neighbor" to His Chosen People at that time, not what it might mean if God had said it today.
You rewrote a Commandment because you couldn't understand it. Do Christians do this all the time? That would explain a lot of appalling behavior I see.

Neighbor has multiple meanings. This was not defined in the actual commandment. Your trying to put a definition from this year on a word from 2000 years ago that has been translated between how many languages. It could simply mean, a person who lives next to you, or even simply somebody who isn't you. Controlling men used it to force war on other religions by putting their own definition on it so I dropped it to avoid confusion.

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If you've ever taken an ethics class, you would know that "common sense" doesn't exist.

It does exist, it's just rare.

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If you only worked a year then you only took reports and didn't actually work field cases.

Think of it as temp to hire. Kid from crappy home being good with kids from crappy homes I didn't hate what they did so I became friends with the people who helped me out. So I stayed in contact and then they offered me a job working with kids who went through the same life I had. Nature of the internet is that you don't get the whole picture let alone live in the same area. State rules where I am from are different from yours.

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No I want better stuff than my neighbor so he'll covet my possessions.

Good luck with that.

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The Bible has one opinion. Read it.

No there are many versions of the bible from different sects of Christianity. I read the bible like 3 times and compared different versions. So I can get my own take on it from my own view with nobody forcing their view on me. S

Not a christian, nor believe in a personified God,  nor the bible as truth but an Aesop's fable.

You just arguing just for fun? Since I see that most of your arguments are just a bunch of assumptions of who you think I am. Keeps me entertained though so I don't mind.

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No, I think it leads to enjoying modern life. I love my house, my central heat, my HDTV, my computer, my bicycle, my cell phone, my power tools, my tons of camera equipment and the photos I've taken with it. These things have rarely failed me unlike many people in my life who have been irrational, ignorant, judgmental, selfish and self-destructive. I'll take a well-designed product over a human any day until more humans learn to think rationally about themselves and their behavior.

To each his own.

[AquilaChrysaetos]

I believe you, on 05 December 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

Which 10 Commandments do you find acceptable even if you do not agree with the overall message of the Old Testament? Which do you disagree with and find no value in?

For those who believe do you ever question the value of any of them? Do you understand them all? Do any confuse you to exactly what they mean? Have you ever thought about it or just accept the popular narrative?

This is totally subjective, what is more important than being right or wrong simply understanding how other people believe.

Well this one is simple. I simply try to avoid making too many absolutes. That's my main problem with the Ten Commandments, it's too black and white. With most of those, it just depends on the situation.

[Imaginarynumber1]

Sean93, on 06 December 2012 - 01:32 AM, said:

*Snip awesome George Carlin bit.*

You bet me to it.

[Mr Walker]

I live by them, but the 10 commandments are only a small part of living with a real and powerful god.

First thing to remember is christ's words on this. He told us that the commandments are more important now than ever. So important that we must follow them in our heart and mind not  just in practice.

Second, he said thay were given in love and are to be followed in love, not from fear and certainly not from legalism.

Third he said that  the commandments were made for man not man for the commandments Thus we must put humanity, charity, love compassion etc., before the law. One can work on the sabbath to help another. One can kill to protect an innocent etc. One can steal to survive or to help another survive.


And finally, because we are human, we will fail to keep them all, but the point is to try. Without humans trying to keep at least the material side of these commandments, any complex civilization will fall apart.

Honesty, duty, responsibilty,  faithfulness and  many other old fashioned but critical values are enshrined in these laws. They epitomise beliefs and values which make people function happily and productively and which hold societies communities, and even nations, together. They stress the importance of society and social responsibilty and duty over individualism and individual rights.


Perhaps this is why they are so unpopular in today's society. They were written at  a time when people realised that all  individual human rights depend on a safe, functioning, and strong society. And so, to achieve individual freedoms and rights, they must first be surrendered to a certain degree, to build that social framework.

Edited by Mr Walker, 08 December 2012 - 10:37 AM.

[Beckys_Mom]

God text me on his holy cellphone two of his commandments ..... It read - No OMG's     and   dnt kill ppl  

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 08 December 2012 - 11:03 AM.

[scowl]

Jinxdom, on 08 December 2012 - 06:25 AM, said:

It's more like a jab at the Egyptian Pharaohs then anything else. Who were what? Worshiped as Gods.

That's not in the Bible. We're talking about gods, not men. If God didn't want us to worship men, He would have said "Thou shalt not worship men", right? Do you think God is stupid?

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The hated slavery and liked servitude. Read the bible and who they follow and why.

And you like servitude?

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God asked people to do things. Hence servitude.

God ORDERED people to do things and they did them because they didn't want to die. That's slavery. Google "Noah's Flood" and "Golden Calf" to get started on how God murdered people both out of anger and as examples for what happens when people don't do what God "asks".

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Pharaoh forced them hence Slavery. People who took things so literal mistake the difference.

You mean those of us who actually read the words in the Bible and don't change their meaning. Yes, we do tend to make "mistakes" that modern Christians don't like.

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Which is what is going on here. The whole bible is denoting the difference. Slavery vs Servitude. Read the whole Bible, then base you context on that not just part of one story and try to force it in to use your point. Read the whole thing for yourself.

Well I just finished Revelation and I saw still more examples of slavery in the New Testament. I couldn't find a single verse that distinguishes "slavery" from "servitude". In fact the Greek word for slavery appears several times in enthusiastic contexts. It's quite an endorsement for the practice and has specific rules on how slaves should treat their masters.

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I take out what could be seen as political influence and stick to the spirit not the letter.

Which means if you don't like it, make up something you do like that's vaguely similar.

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Bear false witness is about the difference between a story and the truth. Omit truth, drop truth, change truth, misinterpret truth are all what making truth a story? What is something that isn't the truth? At the base of it all it's called a lie. Which is why some bibles say thou shall not lie

The Commandments are Commandments, not stories, not parables, not open to interpretation or extrapolation. When the Greek words for "testimony" and "against" and "neighbor" exist in the same sentence, they are there for a reason.

And there are plenty of stories where God absolutely loved deception. God loved how Jacob deceived Esau and his father. God loved how Abraham fooled the Egyptians by telling them Sarah was his sister. The whole book is full of characters who lie and receive God's blessings for it.

They didn't however testify falsely against their neighbors but some of these cases were before the Commandments anyway.

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Wait that's the whole reason you're bent out of shape?  It's morality I'm talking about not a set of laws.

Then leave the Ten Commandments out of it. They are laws to be obeyed, not parables designed to teach you lessons about morality.

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Neighbor has multiple meanings. This was not defined in the actual commandment. Your trying to put a definition from this year on a word from 2000 years ago that has been translated between how many languages.

You are correct. To understand what "neighbor" means, look for other uses of the word in the Old Testament, You'll find that it most likely meant "fellow Israelite" in the context of the Ten Commandments.

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No there are many versions of the bible from different sects of Christianity. I read the bible like 3 times and compared different versions. So I can get my own take on it from my own view with nobody forcing their view on me.

So which Bible are you basing your beliefs on?

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You just arguing just for fun? Since I see that most of your arguments are just a bunch of assumptions of who you think I am. Keeps me entertained though so I don't mind.

I don't know anything about you.