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Still Waters

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The James Randi Million Dollar Challenge for proof of psychic phenomena has been terminated. The JREF page indicates that it is no longer accepting applications from the general public (celebrity psychics still welcome with TV crew). The foundation is going to be converted into a grant-making fund, however a review of the protocols will be done next year when the application process may be reinstated.

Just in case you aren't familiar with what the JREF 1 Million Dollar Challenge is really about, here's a little summary:

http://thesearchforl...lly-terminated/

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After reading about the thing, it sounds like it wasn't a fair test in the first place...So I guess the fact that it is going away means nothing?

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So applications from regular frauds, oops, I meant "psychics" are no longer accepted but celebrity frauds, darn, I mean "psychics", are still allowed?

Sounds fishy to me.

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So applications from regular frauds, oops, I meant "psychics" are no longer accepted but celebrity frauds, darn, I mean "psychics", are still allowed?

Sounds fishy to me.

What I don't get is that it sounds like this test is unbeatable anyways. It's like Creationists setting up a test to prove evolution and then discontinuing their unbeatable test...

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What I don't get is that it sounds like this test is unbeatable anyways. It's like Creationists setting up a test to prove evolution and then discontinuing their unbeatable test...

I really do not believe that is the case, the article and supporting articles are written by obviously believers with a grudge, perhaps some of them even applied and were rejected. The rejections are sound, breatharians are just stupid, we know the body is a chemical machine and canot function without nutrients, crop circles as an alien message are just plain stupid and well and truly debunked. Outright obvious hoaxes should not get the attention they seek. Cutting out the general public is just further weeding out, it is not like there has not been plenty of opportunity. Celebrities are likely to bring funds to the campaign so the money wasted on setting up these experiments that never pass can in some way be recovered. It's all well and good to come down on the randi foundation for refusing to provide this outlet for claimants, but nobody is coming to the party to subsidise it. I would not mind betting a large part of that one million has already been wasted on hoaxes.

Anyone who doubts the good work Randi does should watch this it is only 13 minutes:

That right there is a community service.

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After reading about the thing, it sounds like it wasn't a fair test in the first place...So I guess the fact that it is going away means nothing?

Could you explain (with quotes) exactly why you think it was unfair?

And do you know how many folks to date did not even pass their own preliminary tests? In other words, they failed the tests they devised themselves to show that they had genuine 'abilities'.

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Could you explain (with quotes) exactly why you think it was unfair?

And do you know how many folks to date did not even pass their own preliminary tests? In other words, they failed the tests they devised themselves to show that they had genuine 'abilities'.

Read the link provided in the OP.

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The test is designed to be very hard to beat by chance.

It is designed cooperatively with the person claiming the abilities. When both parties agree the test is fair the test continues.

I know people who set up the trials and watched one, everything is above board.

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Read the link provided in the OP.

Yeah... they hold up Rupert Sheldrake as an example. He is more an example of their own biases and issues.
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Read the link provided in the OP.

Translation - "I can't be bothered to debate this."

Well, I didn't make the claim - it's not up to me to bring your complaints here and explain them (as you seem unwilling to do).

So.. me neither.

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Translation - "I can't be bothered to debate this."

Well, I didn't make the claim - it's not up to me to bring your complaints here and explain them (as you seem unwilling to do).

So.. me neither.

*Snip*

"Honestly, I don’t know who decided that James Randi of all people should be judging claims of the paranormal; that’s like expecting a fair trial in North Korea. He was quoted as saying “Concerning the challenge, I always have an ‘out’: I’m right!”

To be fair, James Randi is correct in his assumption that there are liars, frauds and charlatans out there claiming to be psychic and I share his rage that they are preying on vulnerable and grieving people. No gets more angry than I do when I spot cold readers making millions distracting grieving people with big hair and 6-inch stilettos because they are ruining the reputation of all of the truly gifted people out there who don’t crave fame and attention. It is quite another thing however to claim that because there are some psychic frauds, that all psychics are frauds.

There have been many people who have looked closely at this challenge and written excellent articles and critiques on it. I don’t want to reinvent the wheel, so please read Michael Prescott’s excellent, in-depth supported article on his own investigation of the JREF challenge. Also, read this one from the weilerpsiblog which has both facts and real examples which show why the JREF challenge is a scam and a trap. Here’s one more by Daily Grail called “The Myth of the One Million Dollar Challenge” which sums it up pretty nicely as well.

No self-respecting medium or psychic would ever submit themselves to such an egregiously slanted, fraudulent and corrupted display of mockery such as the JREF challenge, and yet skeptics continue to use this straw man argument as a way to flag-wave their own prejudices. "

Edited by kmt_sesh
Ridicule
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You do recognize that article is heavily biased against the JREF, right?

Rupert Sheldrake is a prime example of pseudo science, the claims made in the article simply don't represent how the challenge is conducted or constructed.

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I will learn from this experience. Next time I will offer an opinion rather than reading the link provided in the OP.

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It would be better if we had the foundations side of the story too.

LINK - JREF Status

According to the above link Randi has retired. The foundation is looking for the best way forward, and felt that giving grants to assist with critical thinking was a better use of the money. And they will only be available to non-profit organisations.

And in all fairness, this seems a VERY good reason to terminate the challenge, form the above link:

Over the years, we have spent a great deal of time dealing with claims ranging from yet another dowsing claim to some VERY eccentric and untestable claims. The overwhelming majority refused to fill out the application or even state a claim that can be tested. Some of them show up in person and demand to be tested while they wait. We can no longer justify the resources to interact with these people.

It sounds more like these people ruined it for themselves, and nobody should have to put up with such demanding rude behaviour. This compounds that the author of that article is heavily biased, misrepresenting the foundation, and really, in a fair workplace ought to be fired for such shoddy, biased poorly researched work. Because this was a blog, it is just the ranting of what seems to be an unstable woman, this is from her "about" page:

My name is Jennifer. I am an ordinary mortal on a life-long mission to prove to myself that life after death exists.

And then insists the Blog is secular. And yet she has redetermined her outcome!!!

Bloody joke it is. We need better sources than this inane nonsense for discussion. Poor link that one sorry to say. Rare thing with Still Waters too.

Rubbish link, rubbish info. Google the story or at least seek out both sides of the story I would advise. Randi has always had his detractors, because he knows his stuff is why.

Edited by psyche101
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Do watch this plonker try fool Randi

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Not good etiquette matey..... we dont outright call each other names...

there are other ways to make a point....

Note taken. I will try to be more clever and insult people without calling names.

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It would be better if we had the foundations side of the story too.

LINK - JREF Status

According to the above link Randi has retired. The foundation is looking for the best way forward, and felt that giving grants to assist with critical thinking was a better use of the money. And they will only be available to non-profit organisations.

And in all fairness, this seems a VERY good reason to terminate the challenge, form the above link:

Over the years, we have spent a great deal of time dealing with claims ranging from yet another dowsing claim to some VERY eccentric and untestable claims. The overwhelming majority refused to fill out the application or even state a claim that can be tested. Some of them show up in person and demand to be tested while they wait. We can no longer justify the resources to interact with these people.

It sounds more like these people ruined it for themselves, and nobody should have to put up with such demanding rude behaviour. This compounds that the author of that article is heavily biased, misrepresenting the foundation, and really, in a fair workplace ought to be fired for such shoddy, biased poorly researched work. Because this was a blog, it is just the ranting of what seems to be an unstable woman, this is from her "about" page:

My name is Jennifer. I am an ordinary mortal on a life-long mission to prove to myself that life after death exists.

And then insists the Blog is secular. And yet she has redetermined her outcome!!!

Bloody joke it is. We need better sources than this inane nonsense for discussion. Poor link that one sorry to say. Rare thing with Still Waters too.

Rubbish link, rubbish info. Google the story or at least seek out both sides of the story I would advise. Randi has always had his detractors, because he knows his stuff is why.

You know, it would have helped if the OP would have said something about this being a biased source. I don't know anything about JREF. All I had was that link. It would be much appreciated if next time if someone would simply point that fact out to me. I believe Shadowsot did...

Edited by Grimmie
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I'm waiting to see if Still Water will respond. Usually she just provides the story and it it gets engaged by those who reply.

I have some understanding of the protocol of setting up the tests, and the people making the test.

I realize you don't have much experience with these sort of sites, but a red flag might have been raised when they stated telepathy had been proved.

It doesn't take much to look up the testing protocols and how they are forumalted.

On a site like this, articles shouldn't be taken at face value.

As for ChrLzs, he's abrasive but usually alright.

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Observant readers will note that Grimmie does not, strangely, quote the heinous insult that I, supposedly, directed at him...

But now that he HAS quoted what he presumably agrees with (you'd have to ask why do that now, after calling me names..?), here are a few comments:

"Honestly, I don’t know who decided that James Randi of all people should be judging claims of the paranormal; that’s like expecting a fair trial in North Korea.

Unsupported ad hominem. It doesn't matter who does what, unless you specify what was *wrong* with the process.

He was quoted as saying “Concerning the challenge, I always have an ‘out’: I’m right!”

Observant readers will note that no citation or context was given. Randi was NOT saying that he would not hand over the money - he *couldn't* do that as it was contractual. He was simply saying that even if he had to pay out, he believed he had the 'higher ground'. Randi himself has nothing to do with the judging, and all competitors have thus far failed on the initial tests. The ones they agreed to and helped design...

To be fair, James Randi is correct in his assumption that there are liars, frauds and charlatans out there claiming to be psychic and I share his rage that they are preying on vulnerable and grieving people.

Well, duh. That's why the tests have to be both fair and RIGOROUS.

It is quite another thing however to claim that because there are some psychic frauds, that all psychics are frauds.

So... WHICH ONE isn't a fraud or self-deluded? Give a properly documented proven example. The article didn't (couldn't)..

There have been many people who have looked closely at this challenge and written excellent articles and critiques on it.

So, bring it, don't just handwave - which one is the best ? You know... peer-reviewed and properly evidenced and that sorta stuff?

Again, lots of handwaving, no substance. If you want to debate the 'reality' of paranormalcy, let's debate the best example you can find. If that's Sheldrake, forgive my mirth, and you might want to re-think your choice, but it's up to you guys.

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It would be better if we had the foundations side of the story too.

LINK - JREF Status

According to the above link Randi has retired. The foundation is looking for the best way forward, and felt that giving grants to assist with critical thinking was a better use of the money. And they will only be available to non-profit organisations.

And in all fairness, this seems a VERY good reason to terminate the challenge, form the above link:

Over the years, we have spent a great deal of time dealing with claims ranging from yet another dowsing claim to some VERY eccentric and untestable claims. The overwhelming majority refused to fill out the application or even state a claim that can be tested. Some of them show up in person and demand to be tested while they wait. We can no longer justify the resources to interact with these people.

It sounds more like these people ruined it for themselves, and nobody should have to put up with such demanding rude behaviour. This compounds that the author of that article is heavily biased, misrepresenting the foundation, and really, in a fair workplace ought to be fired for such shoddy, biased poorly researched work. Because this was a blog, it is just the ranting of what seems to be an unstable woman, this is from her "about" page:

My name is Jennifer. I am an ordinary mortal on a life-long mission to prove to myself that life after death exists.

And then insists the Blog is secular. And yet she has redetermined her outcome!!!

Bloody joke it is. We need better sources than this inane nonsense for discussion. Poor link that one sorry to say. Rare thing with Still Waters too.

Rubbish link, rubbish info. Google the story or at least seek out both sides of the story I would advise. Randi has always had his detractors, because he knows his stuff is why.

To give an idea, some of these guys literally filled out the forms in scribbles and crayons. Some turned up drunk and rowdy, or demanding that they refund costs they spent showing up. Also while drunk.

Then there are the ones who renegades on the agreements they signed stating they agreed the tests were fair after failing.

After many years, Randi has retired with his partner, that he was finally able to marry after many years. I have issues withave the egos that plague these small groups, but will miss the JREF.

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I'm waiting to see if Still Water will respond. Usually she just provides the story and it it gets engaged by those who reply.

I have some understanding of the protocol of setting up the tests, and the people making the test.

I realize you don't have much experience with these sort of sites, but a red flag might have been raised when they stated telepathy had been proved.

It doesn't take much to look up the testing protocols and how they are forumalted.

On a site like this, articles shouldn't be taken at face value.

As for ChrLzs, he's abrasive but usually alright.

All he had to say is "that article is biased." He didn't need me to quote an article that he can read and then insult me for not doing so.

I was bored, I saw this new post, I read the link, and then I commented on it. I'm not going to do background research of every topic on this site. If I wanted to know about the existence of the super natural, I would just read the paper written by the Nobel winner for validating it. I guess I will just stay away from random threads...

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ChrLzs, pull back. Grimmie isn't a woo woo and had bad info. Relax.

He can complain, I have him ignored. I don't really have time for someone that refuses to read the link provided in the OP and then insult someone over it. It may come as a shock to him, but I don't know everything. All someone had to do was point out that was biased. And my info was the link provided. No background research done on my part...because I don't need a stupid test to know people talking to ghosts isn't a real thing.

Edited by Grimmie
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Well, and I mean this seriously, when you read that telepathy had been proved what did you think?

Rupert Sheldrake is only someone you'd know about if you pay attention to the beliver/skeptic bickering over the last few years.

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Well, and I mean this seriously, when you read that telepathy had been proved what did you think?

Rupert Sheldrake is only someone you'd know about if you pay attention to the beliver/skeptic bickering over the last few years.

I thought "Really? That's weird." Typically when I see an odd statement like that that doesn't seem right, I go and do some research on. To be honest, I really didn't care enough about the topic to do any research on that claim. I just thought it was odd that the foundation was shutting down for doing exactly what it was designed to do (scientifically or biasedly...) disprove believers...

I wasn't trying to get into some debate or start a crap storm...

Edited by Grimmie
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