11638 replies to this topic

[Van Gorp]

Otharus, on 12 May 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

This quote [079/07] is from the eastern wall of Fryasburch.
It was supposedly written '1005 years after Aldland sank' (ca. 1200 BCE).

The quote with VAMPIRA is from Minno's notes [035/13].
Minno was a contemporary of Nyhellénja a.k.a. Minerva.
She lived in the 6th century 'after Aldland sank' (ca. 1600 BCE).

OLB has many examples of different words with the same meaning.

BLODSUGAR is literally blood-sucker, the word VAMPIRA is unsure.
It would make sense though, if PIRA means 'worm' (dutch: pier).

Therefore, it is not at all strange that in OLB both VAMPIRA and BLODSUGAR are used as names for what we term "leach" (dutch: bloedzuiger).

Hi Otharus, thanx for summarizing where to find the relevant quotes and assumed point in time of the quote.
This helps a lot.

First of all I find it a very interesting conversation you and Abe are having about the

"Vam.
Pyra"

Though some points are not clear to me.  Knul, where are you man? :-)
Or I must be looking over it, but the relevant fascimile of 35 on rodinbook seem to be the duplicate of 34.

Secondly, I see a bit further a reference to the 'pest' (written in 1600 BC?, or do i mix things up?)
Meaning we had allready a first disease in 1600 BCE calling the 'pest', when I thought it was the disease around 14th Century AD we quite recently call 'de pest'.

Surely possible it can be explained by people who know more about the OLB than me.
Can you help?

Grtz

[Van Gorp]

Van Gorp, on 12 May 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

Hi Otharus, thanx for summarizing where to find the relevant quotes and assumed point in time of the quote.
This helps a lot.

First of all I find it a very interesting conversation you and Abe are having about the

"Vam.
Pyra"

Though some points are not clear to me.  Knul, where are you man? :-)
Or I must be looking over it, but the relevant fascimile of 35 on rodinbook seem to be the duplicate of 34.

Secondly, I see a bit further a reference to the 'pest' (written in 1600 BC?, or do i mix things up?)
Meaning we had allready a first disease in 1600 BCE calling the 'pest', when I thought it was the disease around 14th Century AD we quite recently call 'de pest'.

Surely possible it can be explained by people who know more about the OLB than me.
Can you help?

Grtz

ok, i found the page on the other website.
Would be good to know the origine of Vampyra, gonna look for it.  Pier as you mentionned is feasible, what about Vam? Swamp alike?

[Abramelin]

Van Gorp, on 12 May 2012 - 10:27 PM, said:

ok, i found the page on the other website.
Would be good to know the origine of Vampyra, gonna look for it.  Pier as you mentionned is feasible, what about Vam? Swamp alike?

Why not look for the most obvious source: a 19th century book and a play based on it??

And we already discussed the origin of the word VAMPYRA, but what it stood for is nothing like the OLB describes.

The OLB describes a Vampyra like the people in the 19th century described it.

[Van Gorp]

Abramelin, on 12 May 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

Why not look for the most obvious source: a 19th century book and a play based on it??

And we already discussed the origin of the word VAMPYRA, but what it stood for is nothing like the OLB describes.

The OLB describes a Vampyra like the people in the 19th century described it.

Then I missed the part where the origin of the word Vampire is described.
What i captured from all the references was "Count Dracula, of course, was not the first vampire. Vampires had existed in folklore and legend for hundreds of years, back to ancient times."

But I also wondered where the word itself then originated.
If folklore talked before about Vampyres, where did the word came from (not the book and play i suppose) or what did folklore called them if not Vampyres?

Edited by Van Gorp, 13 May 2012 - 05:44 AM.

[Abramelin]

Van Gorp, on 13 May 2012 - 05:42 AM, said:

Then I missed the part where the origin of the word Vampire is described.
What i captured from all the references was "Count Dracula, of course, was not the first vampire. Vampires had existed in folklore and legend for hundreds of years, back to ancient times."

But I also wondered where the word itself then originated.
If folklore talked before about Vampyres, where did the word came from (not the book and play i suppose) or what did folklore called them if not Vampyres?

If you enter VAMPYRA in the search tool top right (and then click on the magnifying glass) you will end up on this page:

http://www.unexplain...4

And then read the following pages.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 13 May 2012 - 06:27 AM.

[Van Gorp]

Abramelin, on 13 May 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:

If you enter VAMPYRA in the search tool top right (and then click on the magnifying glass) you will end up on this page:

http://www.unexplain...4

And then read the following pages.

.

Yes indeed, was allready looking into those pages.
Damned, what a thread.

You need to do a full scale revision before posting if you don't want to start things all over again :-)

[Van Gorp]

Van Gorp, on 13 May 2012 - 07:50 AM, said:

Yes indeed, was allready looking into those pages.
Damned, what a thread.

You need to do a full scale revision before posting if you don't want to start things all over again :-)

How deep does the rabit hole go?

If there will pop up (besides BloodSugar) an OLB quote about Seks and Magic, I think to contact the Rod Hot Chilli Peppers for explanation :-)

[Otharus]

Van Gorp, on 12 May 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

I see a bit further a reference to the 'pest' (written in 1600 BC?, or do i mix things up?)
Meaning we had allready a first disease in 1600 BCE calling the 'pest', when I thought it was the disease around 14th Century AD we quite recently call 'de pest'.

The word is known from Latin too and possibly related to pessimus, superlative of malus(bad).

[Otharus]

Van Gorp, on 13 May 2012 - 05:42 AM, said:

"Vampires had existed in folklore and legend for hundreds of years, back to ancient times."

But I also wondered where the word itself then originated.

That quote is interesting, but I wonder who said it, and on what base.

Anyway, it more than likely that the concept is much older than any known record of it.

Abe, I'd like to analyze your Vampire argument.

I think this is basically your drift:
It is obvious that a vampire as we know it was meant,
which proves OLB must be fake,
because that concept is a 19th century one.

Here's my drift:

1. Whether VAMPÍRA is translated with "leech" or with "vampire", in both cases it makes sense.

2. The etymology of "vampire" (dutch: vampier) is unknown. That suggests it is a very old word. Let us agree that language is much older than the oldest record of it. Since "pier" means worm, a plausible interpretation is, that "vampier" (a creature that sucks blood) originally meant a bloodsucking worm or leech (dutch: bloedzuiger => bloodsucker).

3. Even if whoever wrote that fragment had a vampire in mind of the type that we know from 19th century literature, that does not mean that the OLB has to be of later date. The word and concept may be thousands of years old.

4. Conclusion: this argument does not prove that OLB has to be a hoax.

[Abramelin]

The vampire as the OLB describes it is indeed similar to the image we nowadays (and from the start of the 19th century) have of the creature.

It's 'ancestors' so to speak, were nothing but bloodsucking ghouls and nothing like the 'modern version'. And the word is most probably of Old Slavic origin or from even further east.

The oldest known records never mention anything like the OLB does, like living in dungeons and holes, enslaving people, wandering around in twilight, stealing people's knowledge, and maybe I forgot one. The only things the OLB doesn't mention is that they hate the smell of garlic.

But yes, the OLB does indeed mention leeches, and it uses the word blodsugar = blood sucker, an animal, like the OLB suggests, lives in marshes. And it does.

==

Btw, the quote came from Dr. Elizabeth Miller:

Elizabeth Miller is recognized internationally for her expertise on Bram Stoker’s 1897 novel Dracula – its origins in folklore, literature and history, as well as its influence on the culture of the twentieth and twenty-first centuries.

She has lectured on the subject throughout Canada (including presentations for the Royal Winnipeg Ballet, the Stratford Festival and CBC-TV’s “Opening Night”), as well as in the United States, England, Ireland, Germany, Poland and Romania.

http://www.ucs.mun.c...eth_miller.html

[Otharus]

In this and following posts I will present OLB-fragments that can be used to think about the root of the word "garden".
(Discussion follows after I have presented all various fragments that I think are relevant.)

With this, I aim to challenge some of the existing etyomologies (garden, guard, gather?).



Wictionary:

Garden ~ Old Northern French gardin, diminutive (cf. Vulgar Latin hortus gardinus) or oblique form of *gard (compare Old French jart), from Old Low Franconian *gardo 'fenced in yard, garden' (compare Dutch gaarde, gaard), from Proto-Germanic *gardô (compare West Frisian gard, Low German Garden, German Garten), from Proto-Germanic *gardaz (“yeard”).

Yard ~ Old English ġeard, from Proto-Germanic *gardaz (compare Dutch gaard, obsolete German Gart, Swedish gård), from Proto-Indo-European *gher- 'enclosure' (compare Old Irish gort 'wheat field', Latin hortus 'garden', Tocharian B kerccī 'palace', Lithuanian gardas 'pen, enclosure', Russian город (górod) 'town', Albanian gardh 'frence', Ancient Greek χόρτος (chórtos, “farmyard”), Avestan gərədha 'dev's cave', Sanskrit gŗhás 'house').


Part I ~ LJUD.GARDA / MANNA.GARDA.FORDA / WAL.HALLA.GARA


I.1) LJUD.GARDA

[005/12]
THA BVRGA LJVD.GÁRDA. LINDA.HÉM ÀND STÁVJA
[O+S p.11]
de burgten Liudgarda, Lindahem en Stavia
The towns Liudgarda, Lindahem, and Stavia

[106/13]
MIN BURCH LÉID AN.T NORTH.ENDE THÉRE LJUD.GÁRDA
[O+S p.147]
Mijne burgt ligt aan ’t noordeinde van de Liudgaarde
My city lies near the north end of the Liudgaarde

[107/25]
ANNA SUDSÍDE FON THA BUTENSTE HRING.DIK IS THJU LJUDGÁRDA.
OM.TUNAD THRVCH THET GRÁTE LINDA.WALD
[O+S p.149]
Aan de zuidzijde van de buitenste ringdijk is de Liudgaarde
omtuind door het groote Lindenwoud
On the south side of the outer fortification is the Liudgaarde,
enclosed by the great wood of lime-trees

[113/26]
LJUD.WARDJA IS EN NY THORP.
BINNA THENE HRING.DIK FON THÉR BURCH LJUD.GARDA.
HWÉR FON THA NÔMA AN VNÉR KVMEN IS
[O+S p.157]
Ljudwardia is een nieuw dorp,
binnen den ringdijk van de burgt Ljudgaarda,
waarvan de naam in oneer gekomen is
Ljudwardia is a new village
within the fortification of the Ljudgaarda,
of which the name has fallen into disrepute

[116/07]
IK KÉM MITH EN FÁM TO THÉRE BURCH LJUDGÁRDA
[O+S p.159]
Ik kwam met eene maagd op de burgt Liudgaarde
I came with a maiden to the citadel Liudgaarde

[116/10]
THÉR THA LJUDGARDA WÉST HÉDE WAS SÉ
[O+S p.159]
Waar de Liudgaarde geweest was, was zee
Where Liudgaarde used to be was sea

[143/11]
HO THA LINDA.WRDA ÀND THA LJUD.GÁRDNE VRDILGEN SEND
[O+S p.195]
hoe de Lindaoorden en de Liudgaarden verwoest zijn
how the Lindaoorden and Liudgaarden were destroyed

[143/13]
THA NORTH.LIKA LJUD.GÁRDNE SEND THRVCH THENE SALTA SÉ BIDELVEN
[O+S p.195]
de noordelijke Liudgaarden zijn door de zoute zee bedolven
the north Liudgaarden are still concealed by the salt sea

I.2) MANNA.GARDA.FORDA

[005/16]
THA BURGA BVDA AND MANNA.GARDA.FORDA
[O+S p.11]
de burgten Buda en Manna-garda-forda
The towns Buda and Manna-garda-forda

[111/31]
ÉR HÉDIK ANDA SÁXANA MARKA. TO THÉRE BURCH MÀNNA.GÁRDA.FORDA WÉST
[O+S p.153]
Weleer was ik in de Saxenmarken op de burgt Mannagardaforde geweest
I had been before in the Saxenmarken, at the Mannagardaforda castle (Munster)

[151/02]
THENE ÔTHERA SVJARING NÉI MANNA.GARDA.VVRDA.
MANNA.GARDA.VVRDA IS FARIN THIT BOK.
MANNA.GARDA.FORDA SKRÉVEN.
MEN THAT IS MIS DÉN
[O+S p.205]
den anderen zwager naar Mannagarda oord;
Mannagarda oord is vroeger in dit boek
Mannagarda forda geschreven,
maar dat is fout [gedaan]
the other brother-in-law, to Mannagarda oord.
Mannagarda oord was written
Mannagarda ford in the earlier part of this book,
but that is [done] wrong

I.3) WAL.HALLA.GARA

[075/31]
AS ER TO LESTA SA. THAT HJU NAVT TO WINNE WÉRE.
GVNG ER NÉI WALHALLAGARA
[O+S p.105]
Als hij ten laatsten zag, dat zij niet te winnen was,
ging hij naar Walhallagara
At last, when he found that there was nothing to be got from her,
he went to Walhallagara (Walcheren)

[005/28]
THJU BURCH WALHALLA.GÁRA IS VNDER SIN HOD
[O+S p.11]
de burgt Walhallagara is onder zijne hoede
The town Walhallagara is under his care [lit.: hood]

[062/04]
MIDDEL VPPET ÉNE À.LAND IS THJU BURCH. WALHALLAGÁRA
[O+S p.87]
Midden op het eene eiland is de burgt Walhallagara
In the middle of one island is the city of Walhallagara (Middelburg)

[120/09]
BINNA THA HRING.DIK FON THÉRE BURCH WALHALLA.GÁRA
[O+S p.165]
binnen den ringdijk van de burgt Walhallagara
within the enclosure [lit.: ring-dike] of the citadel of Walhallagara

[156/15]
FON TEX.LÁND GVNGON HJA NÉI WEST FLÍLAND
ÀND SÁ ALINGEN THA SÉ NÉI WAL.HALLA.GÁRA HIN.
FON WAL.HALLA.GÁRA BRÚDON HJA ...
[O+S p.211]
Van Texland gingen zij naar Westflyland
en zoo langs de zee naar Walhallagara.
Van Walhallagara vertrokken zij ...
From Texland they went to Westflyland,
and so along the cost to Walhallagara;
thence [from Walhallagara] they followed ...

Edited by Otharus, 13 May 2012 - 01:42 PM.

[Abramelin]

I am not done with those vampires yet, lol.

Not one linguist has ever suggested that the origin of the word 'vampire' might have been a Germanic (or Frisian) one.

Frisian (or 'Fryan' if you prefer)  is a Germanic language.

Not one Nordic language has ever mentioned 'vampire' before the 17th century. Not one. Did they all simply forget about it, though the stories about it scared the hell out of most people? I don't think so.


Btw, I found a gem concerning vampires:

Encyclopedia of Vampires.

http://www.scribd.co...edia-of-Vampire


Ancient Vampires:See the following: Anthesteria; Apollonius of Tyana; Apuleius, Lucius; Assyria; Babylon; Ekimmu; Empusas; Horace; Lamia; Menippus; Mormo; Ovid; Petronius; Philinnion; Philostratus; Pliny the Elder; Polycrites; Theodore of Gaza;and Utukku.

=

The word vampire (vampir, vampyre) has hazy origins, although scholars generally agree that it can be traced to the Slavic languages, with debates continuing as to its etymological sources. The word may have come from the Lithuanian wempti ("to drink"), or from the root pi ("to drink"), with the prefix va or av.

Other suggested roots have included the Turkish uber ("witch") and the Serbo-Croatian pirati ("to blow"). Cognate forms developed, so that there can be found in Serbo-Croatian the term vampir, upyr in the Russian, upior in the Polish, and upir in the Byelorussian. Some scholars prefer the concept that upir is older than vampir, an eastern Slavic name that spread westward into the Balkans, where it was adopted by the southern Slavs and received vigorous circulation. The word vampire (or vampyre) arrived in the English language with two 1732 publications: the March translation of a report by the investigators looking into the case of Arnold Paole of Meduegna and the May release of the article "Political Vampires."

.

Edited by Abramelin, 13 May 2012 - 02:01 PM.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, your post about 'garden' only proves the Fryans used an Indo-European word, and not that they were the ones who spread the word.

[Otharus]

Otharus, on 13 May 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Part I ~ LJUD.GARDA / MANNA.GARDA.FORDA / WAL.HALLA.GARA

Part II ~ GARA, GARJA, GADERJA
english: to gather
dutch: (ver-) garen, (ver-) gaderen

[001/10]
ÉNE MÉNA ÁCHT ... HWÉR GÁDURATH WÉRON ÁLLERA.MÀNNELIK ...
[O+S p.5]
eene algemeene volksvergadering ... alwaar [allen] vergaderd waren alle manspersonen ...
a general assembly [...] of the people was summoned, which was attended by all the men [where all people were gathered] ...

[009/32]
DÁWA. GÁDVRAD ANDA BÔSMA THÉRA BLOMMUN
[O+S p.17]
dauw, vergaderd in de boesem der bloemen
dew gathered from the cups of the flowers

[021/05]
VMBE SKÀT TO GARJA SKOLDE HJA ELLA VRRÉDA
[O+S p.33]
Om rijkdom te vergaderen zouden zij alles verraden
For the sake of money [in order to gather treasure] they would betray everybody [all]

[023/23]
THJU MODER LÉTH ALLE BISLUTA GADERJA
[O+S p.37]
De Moeder laat alle besluiten verzamelen
The mother considers [orders gathering of] all the resolutions

[083/12]
AS ER THÉR AFTER AL SINRA FORSTA OM JRA LÉGER TO.GADURAD HÉDE...
[O+S p.115]
Toen hij daarna alle zijne voornaamsten om haar leger vergaderd had...
Then, when he had gathered all his chiefs around her bed...

[099/09]
ÀND THÉR NIS NÉNE WISHÉD TO FINDANDE NER TO GARJANDE BUTA THAM
[O+S p.137]
en er is geen wijsheid te vinden, noch te vergaderen buiten die
nor is any wisdom to be found or gathered but in them

[136/21]
THÉRVMBE DÉD ER ELLA VMBE WISDOM TO GETANA ÀND TO GÁRANE
[O+S p.185]
daarom deed hij alles om wijsheid te verzamelen [krijgen] en te vergaderen
so he did all in his power to acquire [get and gather] wisdom

[141/03]
THÉRUT SKILET FOLK NYE KRÀFTA GÁRA
[O+S p.191]
daaruit zal het volk nieuwe krachten vergaderen
from it the people will gather new strength

Part III ~ GÁRDUM or GÁRDNE: gardens

[110/23]
T.ALDERGA. EN GRÁTE FLÍT OMBORAD MITH LOTHUM. HUSA ÀND GÁRDUM
[O+S p.151]
het Alderga. Een groote vliet omzoomd met schuren, huizen en tuinen
Alderga, a great river surrounded by houses, sheds, and gardens

[111/06]
THA GÁRDNE SEND MITH ALTID GRÉNE HÁGVM OMTUNAD
[O+S p.153]
De tuinen [gaarden] zijn met altijd groene hagen omheind [omtuind]
The gardens are all surrounded [or: enclosed, bordered] by [ever-] green hedges

Part IV ~ ALGADUR, TOGADUR, GÁD

TOGADUR (together) is used once in the OLB.
In oldfashioned Dutch this would be tegaar or tegader, but in modern Dutch the word is samen.
A nice example of an Oldfrisian word that survived in English, but not in Dutch.

ALGADUR or ALGÁDUR is used 14 times + once as ALGÁDER = total 15 times.
In English this would be allgather, allgether or alltogether.
In oldfashioned Dutch and various dialects allegaar is known. Modern Dutch is allemaal.

There is a word that appears thrice, in three different spelling varieties:
GÁDA, GÁDE, GÁD ~ meaning: partner (oldfashioned Dutch: gade)
This word might be related too.

~ ~ ~ to be continued/ discussed later.

[Abramelin]

And what does your latest post prove: that the Fryans used an Indo-European language.