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Atlantis is a reality find out where here


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#1456    kampz

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 10:41 AM

Cormac you stated before that "Atlantis was an allegory, meant to teach a lesson." Are you saying Atlantis was an idea the symbolized that you better not attack Athens or you will get your butt kicked? Atlantis got taken to extreme lengths.

Would you say Plato lied to keep other states and countries away from attacking? To build up Athens morale and strength falsely? Wouldn't everyone before living in Athens or the Mediterranean already know something like this? How could you lie to an audience?

He I guess would usually state his work as fictional or factual. It's tough to write this off as fake. I still don't know what to think. You could be right or not.



#1457    cormac mac airt

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 03:52 PM

View Postkampz, on 09 December 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

Cormac you stated before that "Atlantis was an allegory, meant to teach a lesson." Are you saying Atlantis was an idea the symbolized that you better not attack Athens or you will get your butt kicked? Atlantis got taken to extreme lengths.

Would you say Plato lied to keep other states and countries away from attacking? To build up Athens morale and strength falsely? Wouldn't everyone before living in Athens or the Mediterranean already know something like this? How could you lie to an audience?

He I guess would usually state his work as fictional or factual. It's tough to write this off as fake. I still don't know what to think. You could be right or not.


That's one way of putting it.

No I wouldn't say Plato lied, because he wasn't writing history.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#1458    kampz

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:08 AM

But isn't Plato lying in your eyes? You said him telling this story about Atlantis was sci-fi fiction. Are you saying he told this story of Atlantis during his time as fictional and told everyone living in that time knew it was fiction then somehow it got taken out of context and now we believe it's real?

Plato did write history. He's history.
Plato also spoke/told history.


#1459    cormac mac airt

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 03:13 AM

View Postkampz, on 10 December 2012 - 01:08 AM, said:

But isn't Plato lying in your eyes? You said him telling this story about Atlantis was sci-fi fiction. Are you saying he told this story of Atlantis during his time as fictional and told everyone living in that time knew it was fiction then somehow it got taken out of context and now we believe it's real?

Plato did write history. He's history.
Plato also spoke/told history.

He wrote it as an allegorical tale which was later interpreted by others as actual history. They're the ones who've taken the story out of context. And all during a recognized gathering of story-tellers of that time. It was never meant to be anything other than a story.

What I actually said was "any reinterpreted attempt to rationalize it into existance...is sci-fi". Plato clearly never meant it to go beyond being the allegorical tale it was.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#1460    kmt_sesh

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 03:45 AM

View Postkampz, on 09 December 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

Cormac you stated before that "Atlantis was an allegory, meant to teach a lesson." Are you saying Atlantis was an idea the symbolized that you better not attack Athens or you will get your butt kicked? Atlantis got taken to extreme lengths.

Would you say Plato lied to keep other states and countries away from attacking? To build up Athens morale and strength falsely? Wouldn't everyone before living in Athens or the Mediterranean already know something like this? How could you lie to an audience?

He I guess would usually state his work as fictional or factual. It's tough to write this off as fake. I still don't know what to think. You could be right or not.


I'd like to chime in. First, no one is saying Plato lied. That's an unfair assumption and not a correct way to interpret or understand his writings Timaeus and Critias. How familiar are you not only with these two works but with Plato's writings in general? He used the format of dialog and allegory quite a lot in what he wrote—not to present actual historical accounts but to craft philosophical arguments and cautionary tales.

Second, how familiar are you with the Athens of Plato's time? What traumatic historical event did Plato live through that profoundly affected Athens at that time, as well as all of the people living in it? Plato's tale was hardly written as a warning against those who might threaten Athens, but was in fact a cautionary tale of the hubris of a people and its city-state. It was self-reflection, in other words.

Plato was a philosopher, not an historian. Too many people in the twenty-first century do not take this into account, nor do they consider (or even know of) the actual events that lay behind the reason Plato concocted Atlantis in the first place. Far from being a lie, Plato's Atlantis was a brilliant allegorical construct.

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#1461    kampz

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 06:06 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 10 December 2012 - 03:13 AM, said:

He wrote it as an allegorical tale which was later interpreted by others as actual history. They're the ones who've taken the story out of context. And all during a recognized gathering of story-tellers of that time. It was never meant to be anything other than a story.

What I actually said was "any reinterpreted attempt to rationalize it into existance...is sci-fi". Plato clearly never meant it to go beyond being the allegorical tale it was.

cormac

Ok I got it. Would you say he wrote this fictional story not just for Athens but everyone in the Mediterranean/Western Europe/North Africa or World? Considering he told a tale that a civilization conquered everyone but Athens.. I would be upset if someone told me my lands were conquered before when they really weren't. I guess not or I'm wrong. Nobody cares.

Maybe something resembles Atlantis in the past or maybe not. Not really fictional when your city or lands were probably always under attack throughout history.

Edited by kampz, 10 December 2012 - 06:17 AM.


#1462    cormac mac airt

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 06:33 AM

View Postkampz, on 10 December 2012 - 06:06 AM, said:

Ok I got it. Would you say he wrote this fictional story not just for Athens but everyone in the Mediterranean/Western Europe/North Africa or World? Considering he told a tale that a civilization conquered everyone but Athens.. I would be upset if someone told me my lands were conquered before when they really weren't. I guess not or I'm wrong. Nobody cares.

Maybe something resembles Atlantis in the past or maybe not. Not really fictional when your city or lands were probably always under attack throughout history.

He wrote it for the peoples of his time and location. It really wasn't meant for anyone else.

Which is probably why he placed the events of Atlantis so far in the past. A time that no one had any real information about. It's kind of hard to base an argument on information one doesn't really have.

Even if he used the disappearance of other locations, such as Helike or Santorini, as an inspiration for some of his tale this still wouldn't validate an island civilization just outside of the Pillars of Hercules.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 10 December 2012 - 06:34 AM.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#1463    kampz

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 07:04 AM

I believe his name and work was known outside of Athens. I don't know, but if he got this big then I'll go out on a limb and say that's true.

I see your reasonings for placing Atlantis so far back. Makes sense. I give it to you. But I'm sure he just made a ball park estimate of the years or he didn't.

I don't think Plato would want us to take it this far if his story is fictional. Dang it.

I have a question. Do you believe something resembling Atlantis could of existed back in 9.600 BC or whenever? I do. I realize there's no proof of anything. But that's why we made the word discovery.

Edited by kampz, 10 December 2012 - 07:06 AM.


#1464    cormac mac airt

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 07:19 AM

View Postkampz, on 10 December 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

I believe his name and work was known outside of Athens. I don't know, but if he got this big then I'll go out on a limb and say that's true.

I see your reasonings for placing Atlantis so far back. Makes sense. I give it to you. But I'm sure he just made a ball park estimate of the years or he didn't.

I don't think Plato would want us to take it this far if his story is fictional. Dang it.

I have a question. Do you believe something resembling Atlantis could of existed back in 9.600 BC or whenever? I do. I realize there's no proof of anything. But that's why we made the word discovery.

Not with the population or technological/maritime capabilities that Atlantis was claimed to have had. This all pretty much says "Bronze Age". And we know from archaeological finds in and around Spain that there were no such populated not technologically advanced cultures in the area c.9600 BC.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#1465    kampz

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 07:30 AM

There's nothing different between the technological/maritime capabilities of humans compared from 9,600BC to Platos time. If there is, it's slightly and the ideas of how to run a country. Why are you giving the assumption that human beings were not as technologically advanced  in 9,600 BC compared to Platos time? If you can built a boat....well you can build a boat. If you have a hand and a brain, you can draw a map. If you have a brain, you can remember where places are. Take the taxi driver originally from a different country as an example. If you can make a blunt object or sword, you can invade opposing lands. They could of been more technological advanced then we give them. We know barley anything from 9,600 BC anywhere.

An example are the Barbarians and Goths. People usually write them off as dumb and not technologically advanced. Clearly they weren't, but that's what they were labeled. They invaded mighty Rome and Europe.

Edited by kampz, 10 December 2012 - 07:38 AM.


#1466    cormac mac airt

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 07:46 AM

View Postkampz, on 10 December 2012 - 07:30 AM, said:

There's nothing different between the technological/maritime capabilities of humans compared from 9,600BC to Platos time. If there is, it's slightly and the ideas of how to run a country. Why are you giving the assumption that human beings were not as technologically advanced  in 9,600 BC compared to Platos time? If you can built a boat....well you can build a boat. If you have a hand and a brain, you can draw a map. If you have a brain, you can remember where places are. Take the taxi driver originally from a different country as an example. If you can make a blunt object or sword, you can invade opposing lands. They could of been more technological advanced then we give them. We know barley anything from 9,600 BC anywhere.

Which suggests to me that you haven't paid particular attention to Plato's Critias. We're not talking simple dugout canoes here. Plato actually mentions the following:

Quote

As to the population, each of the lots in the plain had to find a leader for the men who were fit for military service, and the size of a lot was a square of ten stadia each way, and the total number
of all the lots was sixty thousand. And of the inhabitants of the mountains and of the rest of the country there was also a vast multitude, which was distributed among the lots and had leaders
assigned to them according to their districts and villages. The leader was required to furnish for the war the sixth portion of a war-chariot, so as to make up a total of ten thousand chariots; also two horses and riders for them, and a pair of chariot-horses without a seat, accompanied by a horseman who could fight on foot carrying a small shield, and having a charioteer who stood behind the man-at-arms to guide the two horses; also, he was bound to furnish two heavy armed soldiers, two slingers, three stone-shooters and three javelin-men, who were light-armed, and four sailors to make up the complement of twelve hundred ships. Such was the military order of the royal city-the order of the other nine governments varied, and it would be wearisome to recount their several differences.

This is technology that didn't exist in 9600 BC.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#1467    kampz

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 07:56 AM

I mentioned to you before I only read Wiki's page regarding Atlantis. I've never read Platos Critias and I don't need to if I want to say that something resembled Atlantis. By the way your right, it's impossible to know 10,000 chariots and 1,200 ships. What about every take on war in our past history. It's all just estimates other then wars recent. I would think he over estimated majorly to make Athens seem impressive. In ancient times things were tough.

Here's my first take -
You invade. Steal horses and wood. Keep doing it until Athens is reached. Total chariots and boats add up to a lot. Pretty basic technological wise and it's basically the same to Platos time. To say the wheel got invented when it did is foolish in my opinion. I know I'm just making claims but so are you. You'll never know if you are right and the same with me. That's why this forum is great.

Edited by kampz, 10 December 2012 - 07:58 AM.


#1468    kampz

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 08:09 AM

All you need is a hand to carry a weapon of destruction and a brain to accomplish what Atlantis did according to Plato.

Edited by kampz, 10 December 2012 - 08:10 AM.


#1469    cormac mac airt

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 08:10 AM

View Postkampz, on 10 December 2012 - 07:56 AM, said:

I mentioned to you before I only read Wiki's page regarding Atlantis. I've never read Platos Critias and I don't need to if I want to say that something resembled Atlantis. By the way your right, it's impossible to know 10,000 chariots and 1,200 ships. What about every take on war in our past history. It's all just estimates other then wars recent. I would think he over estimated majorly to make Athens seem impressive. In ancient times things were tough.

Here's my first take -
You invade. Steal horses and wood. Keep doing it until Athens is reached. Total chariots and boats add up to a lot. Pretty basic technological wise and it's basically the same to Platos time. To say the wheel got invented when it did is foolish in my opinion. I know I'm just making claims but so are you. You'll never know if you are right and the same with me. That's why this forum is great.

There's a difference. My claims are based on the available evidence. None of which supports anything that could be remotely misconstrued as Plato's Atlantis. Contrary to popular opinion, all opinions are NOT equal. Especially when the evidence supports one over the other.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#1470    kampz

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 08:13 AM

I understand that 100% cormac. I'm just saying nothing really is known about that time period. I just won't write this off that easily. It's just my opinion. That's why we created the word discovery. I admit I might one day proclaim Atlantis in the same way you did.

Edited by kampz, 10 December 2012 - 08:17 AM.





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