11638 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

Someone asked me in private what my problems are with the Oera LInda Book, and I told her the main problem is the linguistics, or better, crappy etymology.

I will post the example I gave her:


PARIS >>> PARt ISis >> a part of Isis, So, Paris is an ancient name, and it stands for a part of the goddess Isis.

The Sacre Coeur in Paris looks like a giant boob, so here we have 'proof' of that part of Isis....

The OLB and the later books like the one from Overwijn is crammed to the brim with that kind of play with words, but like i said, you have to be Dutch to see it.

(EDIT: I made that one up, but it's of the same level as all the other word/name derivations in the OLB)

Edited by Abramelin, 04 July 2010 - 04:12 PM.

[Alewyn]

Abramelin, on 04 July 2010 - 04:06 PM, said:

Someone asked me in private what my problems are with the Oera LInda Book, and I told her the main problem is the linguistics, or better, crappy etymology.

I will post the example I gave her:


PARIS >>> PARt ISis >> a part of Isis, So, Paris is an ancient name, and it stands for a part of the goddess Isis.

The Sacre Coeur in Paris looks like a giant boob, so here we have 'proof' of that part of Isis....

The OLB and the later books like the one from Overwijn is crammed to the brim with that kind of play with words, but like i said, you have to be Dutch to see it.

(EDIT: I made that one up, but it's of the same level as all the other word/name derivations in the OLB)

Ja Abramelin, now you are really grasping at straws. "Paris" does not appear anywhere in the Oera Linda Book. Please give us some actual examples of the "crappy Etymology". All that we have seen thus far is the "bed rooms". Give us the Dutch and your best shot at an English translation therof.

[Abramelin]

Alewyn, on 04 July 2010 - 05:46 PM, said:

Ja Abramelin, now you are really grasping at straws. "Paris" does not appear anywhere in the Oera Linda Book. Please give us some actual examples of the "crappy Etymology". All that we have seen thus far is the "bed rooms". Give us the Dutch and your best shot at an English translation therof.

I clearly said I made it up.

[Qoais]

Ok, you made THAT one up.  So give an example in the book of what you think is made up.

[Abramelin]

Qoais, on 04 July 2010 - 10:26 PM, said:

Ok, you made THAT one up.  So give an example in the book of what you think is made up.

OK, just a couple from memory:

Nep Teun = 'nephew Teun' = >> Neptune
Krekalander (in Dutch 'Griekenland"') = Greece. One explanation  has to do with 'kreken' (=creeks, or brooks), another with an ancient word for old woman, 'Greche'.
Crete << the inhabitants screamed (scream = 'kreet') when they saw the sailors sail by.

Nehellenia>> 'hell' = bright light. But Hell/Hall/Hulda/Holle is an ancient name for the north sea.

But he most important linguistic clue something is fishy about the OLB is the word order in a sentence: it's too modern.

There are really ancient Frisian documents online (I think it's the laws made by Radboud or Rutger) from 1400 years ago that are totally unreadable if you don't know how to speak old Frisian.
Qoais, you speak English. Now try to read ancient Anglo-Saxon; the word order (verb, object subject, adjectives, and so on) is totally different form present day english.

Now maybe you say that the last version of the OLB dates from 1200 AD, but  I doubt you could read those manuscripts dating form that time; there are still people who have great trouble reading Shakespeare's work in it's original spelling and word order, even though it's from a much more recent time.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 05 July 2010 - 11:57 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Alewyn, on 29 June 2010 - 08:29 AM, said:

Homer: (ca 800 BC?)
In one of my previous postings (and in my Book) I made the claim that Homer’s “Phaeacians” were the Frisians and that “Scheria” was the Schelde.

“Odyssey”, Book V, Page 1
“When he (Jove) had thus spoken, he said to his son Mercury, ‘Mercury, you are our messenger, go therefore and tell Calypso we have decreed that poor Ulysses is to return home. He is to be convoyed neither by gods nor men, but after a perilous voyage of twenty days upon a raft he is to reach fertile Scheria, the land of the Phaeacians, who are near of kin to the gods, and will honour him as though he were one of ourselves.”

OLB: “Book of Adela’s followers”, ch. XXX (2-4)
“2. On the largest of them was a king of the Jonhis Elenda whose name was Ulysus, the fame of whose wisdom was great. To him a priestess had prophesied that he should become the king of all Krekaland (Greece) provided he could obtain a lamp that had been lighted at the lamp in Texland. For this purpose he had brought great treasures with him, above all, jewels for women more beautiful than had ever been seen before. They were from Troia, a state that the Krekalandar had taken.”

Homer  mentioned that Ulysses came from Ithaca on the Ionian Islands. The OLB said he came from the “Jonhis Elenda.”(From “Jon-his Elanda” to “Jon-ian Islands” to “Ion-ian Islands”?)

Throughout the OLB we read of the Frisians’  maritime skills and sea voyages.
“Odyssey”, Book VIII, Page 5:
(King Alcinous describes the Phaeacians to Ulysses)

“We are not particularly remarkable for our boxing, nor yet as wrestlers, but we are singularly fleet of foot and are excellent sailors. We are extremely fond of good dinners, music, and dancing; we also like frequent changes of linen, warm baths, and good beds, so now, please, some of you who are the best dancers set about dancing, that our guest on his return home may be able to tell his friends how much we surpass all other nations as sailors, runners, dancers and minstrels.”

“Odyssey”, Book VII, Page 3
(Homer relates Ulysses’ impressions of Alcinous’ house)
“As the Phaeacians are the best sailors in the world, so their women excel all others in weaving, for Minerva has taught them all manner of useful arts, and they are very intelligent.”

OLB: The Writings of Apollonia, ch. III
“5. Her short kilt of linen, and her tunic of wool, she spun and wove herself.”

The Trojan War
According to Homer, the  Trojan war lasted for 10 years. Dares recorded that the war lasted 10 years, 6 months and 12 days. Both Homer and Dares claimed that there were more than 1100 ships involved. Ovid mentioned a fleet of 1000 ships:
(P. Ovidius Naso, “Metamorphoses”, Book XII)
“But soon afterwards, he brought into that land a ravished wife, Helen, the cause of a disastrous war, together with a thousand ships, and all the great Pelasgian nation”

We can thus safely assume that most of the sea-going vessels in the Aegean was tied up in this war and the associated logistics.
In the OLB, (“Book of Adela’s followers”, ch. XXX) we read:

“1. After twelve years had elapsed without our seeing any Krekalandar (Greeks) in Almanland, there came three ships, finer than any that we possessed or had ever seen.”

Surely, this remark is just too casual to be part of a deliberate hoax.

The Pelasgic Athenians

Before I go any further, I have to explain the terms: “Pelasgic” and “Barbarian” (I am trying to condense a whole chapter here)
In my book I show that the word “Pelasgic” come from “Pelasgos” which means “Sea”  and would therefore indicate “Sea People” (According to Vladimir Georgiev). The OLB referred to their Mariners as “Sea People”:
( The book of Adela’s followers, ch. XXIII)
“25. ...Many Magyarar fled back with their troops, and the sea-people took ship, accompanied by a body of stalwart Finnar as rowers.”

In “the book of Adela’s followers”, (ch. XXX) the Frisians complained about the heckling they had to endure in Athens:
“14. If our simple parents came to a general assembly at Athenia and made complaints, a cry was raised, "Hear, Hear! There is a sea-monster going to speak!"”

Even in Athens, therefore, they were known as “Sea People”.

The word “Barbarian” came from the Greek “Barbaros” or “Barbaroi” and simply meant speakers of the “Bar-bar” language which was foreign to the indigenous Greeks. (Compare with English “Blah-Blah”) Originally the word did not mean “savages”. On the contrary, they were highly respected. Ovid referred to the “Great” Pelasgic nation and Herodotus in the introduction to his “Histories” had the following to say:
“These are the researches of Herodotus of Halicarnassus, which he publishes, in the hope of thereby preserving from decay the remembrance of what men have done, and of preventing the great and wonderful actions of the Greeks and the Barbarians from losing their due meed of glory.”

Josephus (“Against Apion”, Book 1.11) had the following to say about the Barbarians:
“…(58) and I suppose I have sufficiently declared that this custom of transmitting down the histories of ancient times hath been better preserved by those nations which are called Barbarians, than by the Greeks themselves.”

In my book I quote other authors along the same lines.
Now I can come to my point:

The  OLB claims that Minerva Ny-Helenia founded Athens in ca 1628 BC (“Book of Adela’s followers”, ch. XXVIII)
Herewith some extracts from Herodotus’ “Histories” (Book I, p19)

“What the language of the Pelasgi (Sea People) was I cannot say with any certainty.”,
“we must pronounce that the Pelasgi spoke a barbarous language.”,
“the Athenians, who were certainly Pelasgi, must have changed their language at the same time that they passed into the Hellenic body”
”It was a branch of the Pelasgic, which separated from the main body, and at first was scanty in numbers and of little power; but it gradually spread and increased to a multitude of nations, chiefly by the voluntary entrance into its ranks of numerous tribes of barbarians. The Pelasgi, on the other hand, were, as I think, a barbarian race which never greatly multiplied.”

Thus, Frisians = Sea People = Pelasgics = Barbarians = Athenians = exactly as the OLB claims

The 305 BC Flood

Frethorik Oera Linda recorded a natural disaster which devastated the Netherlands, Friesland, Denmark ( largely a peninsula) and Norway in 305 BC. (OLB: “The writings of  Frethorik and Wiliow”, Ch I) Here is an extract of his account:

“10. The Magy prided himself upon his cunning, but Irtha made him know that she would not tolerate any Magy or idol on the holy bosom that had borne Frya. As a wild horse tosses his mane after he has thrown his rider, so Irtha shook her forests and her mountains. Rivers flowed over the land; the sea raged; mountains spouted fire to the clouds, and what they vomited forth the clouds flung upon Irtha.
17. This happened in the year 1888  after the submersion of Atland” (305 BC)

Strabo (64 BC–24 AD), a Roman historian, referred in his “Geography” (7.2.1) to legends of a devastating flood that had struck the Cimbri:

“II. As for the Cimbri, some things that are told about them are incorrect and others are extremely improbable. For instance, one could not accept such a reason for their having become a wandering and piratical folk as this – that while they were dwelling on a Peninsula they were driven out of their habitations by a great flood-tide.”

Under “the Writings of Konered” (Chapter II) in the OLB, Konered describes how the Danes who survived the disaster turned to piracy:

“10. Afterwards many of the Denamarkar returned from the higher lands, but they settled more to the south; and when the navigators returned who had not been lost, they all went together to Seland. By this arrangement the Juttar retained the land to which Wr-alda had conducted them. The Selandar navigators, who were not satisfied to live upon fish, and who hated the Golar, took to robbing the Phonisiar ships.”
( The dawn of the age of the Vikings)

The following extract was taken from an article published in The New York Times on 29 December 2008:

“But several geologists have collected evidence indicating that something very big and unusual occurred in waters near the New York area around 300 B.C., give or take a century. And Dallas Abbott, a research scientist at Columbia University’s Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, is asserting that a meteorite, landing somewhere in the Atlantic, generated the tsunami.”

India
In Chapter XXVIII of “The Book of Adela’s Folloers”, the OLB describes how some of the (“Right-Wing”?)Frisians in Athens defied the local priests and elected their own leader by the name of Gert. They then called themselves the “Gertmanne”. They were subsequently kicked out of Athens and fled to India. (ca 1556 BC)
In India they called their new home “Gertmannia and started to clear the area. In the OLB under “The writings Of Konered” (Ch.VI) we read the following:

“21. On the west of the Pangab where we come from, and where I was born, the same fruits and crops grow as on the east side. Formerly there existed also the same crawling animals, but our forefathers burnt all the under-wood, and so diligently hunted all the wild animals, that there are scarcely any left.”

Richard Hooker on his Website “Ancient India, The Arians” says, inter alia, the following about the “Aryans”:
“When they arrived, the vast northern plains were almost certainly densely forested. Where now bare fields stretch to the horizon, when the Aryans arrived lush forests stretched to those very same horizons. Clearing the forests over the centuries was an epic project and one that is still preserved in Indian literature.”

According to the OLB the Gertmanne later relocated westwards where they established “Ny-Gertmannia”. By the time of Herodotus (ca 484 BC- 425 BC) the area was known “Gertmania” and on old Alexandrian maps (ca 320 BC) we find the province of “Carmania”. Today it is known as the province of “Kerman” in Iran.
These Gertmanne laid the foundations of the Persian Empire. In his “Histories” Herodotus wrote:

“The rest of the Persian tribes are the following:  The Panthialaeans, the Derusiaeans, the Germanians, who are engaged in husbandry; the Daans, the Mardians, the Dropicans, and the Sagartians, who are nomads.”

Herodotus (and other authors) referred to the Persians also as “Barbarians”.

Arrian of Nicomedia wrote the following in his “Anabasis Alexandri” (The  Campaigns of Alexander):

Book IIIb
“He now arrived in the land of the people formerly called Ariaspians, but afterwards named Euergetae, because they assisted Cyrus, son of Cambyses, in his invasion of Scythia. Alexander honoured these people, for the service which their ancestors had rendered to Cyrus; and when he ascertained that the men not only enjoyed a form of government unlike that of the other barbarians in that part of the world, but laid claim to justice equally with the best of the Greeks, he set them free, and gave them besides as much of the adjacent country as they asked for themselves; but they did not ask for much”

Book VIII, Indica:
“The Nysaeans are not an Indian race; but part of those who came with Dionysus to India; possibly even of those Greeks who became past service in the wars which Dionysus waged with Indians; possibly also volunteers of the neighbouring tribes whom Dionysus settled there together with the Greeks, calling the country Nysaea from the mountain Nysa, and the city itself Nysa”



Regards,
Alewyn

Sorry, I was going to post something but raved on a heap, will condense and post again soon.

I'll start at the start though for now:

You must preserve these books with body and soul. They contain the history of all our people, as well as of our forefathers. Last year I saved them in the flood, as well as you and your mother; but they got wet, and therefore began to perish. In order not to lose them, I copied them on foreign paper.

In case you inherit them, you must copy them likewise, and your children must do so too, so that they may never be lost.

Written at Liuwert, in the three thousand four hundred and forty-ninth year after Atland was submerged—that is, according to the Christian reckoning, the year 1256.

Hiddo, surnamed Over de Linda.—Watch.

So.............why can't the book be a more recent copying of it if it was advised to copy it out over the ages. Maybe they copied all that part too.

That must have been written after the 2nd part dated 803AD.

Wiki says:
The current manuscript carries a date of 1256. Internal claims suggest that it is a copy of older manuscripts that, if genuine, would have been written by multiple people between 2194 BC and AD 803.

Grandfather through his aunt. I can find nothing that states this manuscript could not have been written by either grandfather or aunt as a copy of the older form (with more recent variations of sentences), especially since it was suggested to do so.

My question would be...what sort of hoax does this purport to be?  A warning to never let monks see it...
Olaf Rudbeck, Atland is just the Swedish word for Atlantis, not like he made it up or anything. I do not see how the mention of Atland can be associated with Rudbeck introducing it.

It says:
Between 1679-1702, Rudbeck dedicated himself to contributions in historical-linguistics patriotism, writing a 3,000-page treatise in four volumes called Atlantica (Atland eller Manheim in Swedish) where he purported to prove that Sweden was Atlantis, the cradle of civilization, and Swedish the original language of Adam from which Latin and Hebrew had evolved.

The weird thing is Swedish genetics pop up in the Berbers. (Barbarians you say...)

Edited by The Puzzler, 06 July 2010 - 06:58 AM.

[Alewyn]

Abramelin, on 05 July 2010 - 11:53 AM, said:

OK, just a couple from memory:

Nep Teun = 'nephew Teun' = >> Neptune
Krekalander (in Dutch 'Griekenland"') = Greece. One explanation  has to do with 'kreken' (=creeks, or brooks), another with an ancient word for old woman, 'Greche'.
Crete << the inhabitants screamed (scream = 'kreet') when they saw the sailors sail by.

Nehellenia>> 'hell' = bright light. But Hell/Hall/Hulda/Holle is an ancient name for the north sea.

But he most important linguistic clue something is fishy about the OLB is the word order in a sentence: it's too modern.

There are really ancient Frisian documents online (I think it's the laws made by Radboud or Rutger) from 1400 years ago that are totally unreadable if you don't know how to speak old Frisian.
Qoais, you speak English. Now try to read ancient Anglo-Saxon; the word order (verb, object subject, adjectives, and so on) is totally different form present day english.

Now maybe you say that the last version of the OLB dates from 1200 AD, but  I doubt you could read those manuscripts dating form that time; there are still people who have great trouble reading Shakespeare's work in it's original spelling and word order, even though it's from a much more recent time.

.

Thanks for that. I may just add that the Afrikaans (evolved from Dutch) for "Nef" (cousin ) is still "neef", "Krete" is still the same and "Krekaland" is "Griekeland".

You are obviously acquainted with Ottema's views, but for those who are not, I would like to post the following extract:

"The language is very old Fries, still older and purer than the Fries Rjuchtboek or old Fries laws, differing from that both in form and spelling, so that it appears to be an entirely distinct dialect, and shows that the locality of the language must have been (as it was spoken) between the Vlie and the Scheldt.
The style is extremely simple, concise, and unembarrassed, resembling that of ordinary conversation, and free in the choice of words. The spelling is also simple and easy, so that the reading of it does not involve the least difficulty, and yet with all its regularity, so unrestricted, that each of the separate writers who have worked at the book has his own peculiarities, arising from the changes in pronunciation in a long course of years, which naturally must have happened, as the last part of the work is written five centuries after the first.
I will conclude with one more remark regarding the language. Those who have been able to take only a superficial view of the manuscripts have been struck by the polish of the language, and its conformity with the present Friesland language and Dutch. In this they seem to find grounds for doubting the antiquity of the manuscript.
But, I ask, is, then, the language of Homer much less polished than that of Plato or Demosthenes? And does not the greatest portion of Homer’s vocabulary exist in the Greek of our day?It is true that language alters with time, and is continually subject to slight variations, owing to which language is found to be different at different epochs. This change in the language in this manuscript accordingly gives ground for important observations to philologists. It is not only that of the eight writers who have successively worked at the book. Each is recognizable by slight peculiarities in style, language and spelling; but more particularly between the two parts of the book, between which an interval of more than two centuries occurs, a striking difference of the language is visible, which shows what a slowly progressive regulation it has undergone in that period of time. As a result of these considerations, I arrive at the conclusion that I cannot find any reason to doubt the authenticity of these writings. They cannot be forgeries. In the first place, the copy of 1 256 cannot be. Who could have at that time forged anything of that kind? Certainly no one. Still less any one at an earlier date. At a later date a forgery is equally impossible, for the simple reason that no one was acquainted with the language. Except Grimm, Richthofen and Hettema, no one can be named sufficiently versed in that branch of philology, or who had studied the language so as to be able to write in it. And if one could have done so, there would have been no more extensive vocabulary at his service than that which the East Frisian laws afford. Therefore, in the centuries lately elapsed, the preparation of this writing was impossible. Whoever doubts this let him begin by showing where, when, by whom, and with what object such a forgery could be committed, and let him show in modern times the fellow of this paper, this writing, and this language."

Here is another lead in the OLB which I followed up in my book:
In the "Book of Adela’s followers", ch. XXIII (5-8)
"5. In the year 101 after the submersion of Aldland  a people came out of the east. That people was driven by another. Behind us, in Twiskland, they fell into disputes, divided into two parties, and each went its own way. Of the one no account has come to us, but the other came in the back of our Skenland (Scandinavia), which was thinly inhabited, particularly the upper part."

Now the extract from my book:
" The Finnish language, which belongs to the Finno-Permic language group, is the most closely related language to Estonian and Hungarian although Hungary is geographically a fair distance (1200 kilometres) away. The Hungarian language belongs to the Ugric group which have developed in parallel with the Finno-Permic languages some 4000 years ago. The Finno-Permic and Ugric groups, both of the Uralic language family, would appear to have parted ways west of the Ural Mountains – precisely what the Oera Linda Book tells us and in an area which it calls "Twiskland". Neither of these language groups is related to the Indo-European languages.
The Hungarians still refer to themselves as "Magyar", a name which, according to the Oera Linda Book, goes back to more than 4000 years to what used to be a priestly order called the "Magyarar". Present-day scholars believe that the name Magyar might have been derived from the name or title Muageris or Mugel. This would then be the Oera Linda Book’s "Magy".
The Oera Linda Book mentions a dispute between two groups in Twiskland after which they separated. The one group migrated to Finland and the other group disappeared. It would be reasonable to assume that this second group eventually settled in the region of Hungary and further south into the Balkans and Greece. This split is precisely what researchers find in their studies and would answer the Frisians’ 4000 year old question as to what happened to the second group."

As with all the other dates and post-19th century discoveries that I have previously mentioned, here we find some more information that was not known in the 19th century.

The main reason that people doubt the authenticity of the Oera Linda Book is that it just seems too fantastic and too far removed from the picture that was embedded in our collective
minds by historians. Yet, apart from the OLB, we have nothing about the period which the OLB describes. We have even less about Plato's Atlantis but it does not prevent people from accepting that there may be some truth to it. When it comes to the OLB, however, we reject it outright.

You label yourself as a skeptic. By definition you, therefore, do not merely accept everything that people says but would rather analyse a situation and derive at your own conclusions. How is it then that you just accept the "Hoax Hypothesis" without questioning it? Is this not "selective skepticism" or are you afraid to go against "the establishment" in the Netherlands for fear of ridicule?

As I have mentioned before, the evidence supporting the OLB's authenticity is so overwhelming and, in my view, much more than the "evidence" and speculation that support the "hoax theory".

One last question: Do we have any evidence in Haverschmid's (a.k.a Piet Paaltjens) history where he ever wrote about or displayed an exceptional knowledge of history in antiquaty?

[Abramelin]

Look Alewyn, if you say you were able to translate the original manuscript all by yourself and that you were not dependent on any English or Dutch translation, then things will be different.

But - and maybe I am wrong - I don't think you can read Old Frisian or the language used in the OLB.

So what do we both do, apparently? We both read what other translators tell us. Now is't clear you are convinced that Ottema made an accurate translation of the OLB.
But even during Ottema's life there were others who already had great doubts about this 'old Frisian' language as used in the OLB.

After the 19th century there were many others who studied it. Believe me Alewijn, the Frisians are a proud people (and if you ever visit the Frisian province in Holland, don't ever call them 'Hollanders', use 'Dutch' or 'Netherlanders' instead...), and if the OLB would be proven, without any doubt, to be authentic, they would certainly let the rest of the Dutch people know about it.

So, if one or two (of the first) translators/interpretors are convinced it is an authentic document, and then ten or more others are convinced it is most certainly NOT authentic, then what would you think it is?

You ask me about Haverschmidt, and I have given you a link to an online book written by Jensma, "The Unmasked God". Either you didn't see it, or you forgot to read it, or you simply ignored it.

I am not a linguist, others are.

You quote one source: Ottema. Have you also consulted other writers who were able to read the original manuscript. If yes, who? If no, why not?

===

In a former post you talked about the eruption of Mt. Thera, and you said it's tidal effect (tsunami) would have been felt in the North Sea. This is just not true. Compare the resulting tsunami with the tsunami that resulted from the under sea earhquake in 2004: it was one of the most heavy earthquakes on record, but nothing of a tsunami was noticed in Japan. A tsunami doesn't round corners, go left and right and so on.

[Abramelin]

Because editing on this site gives me a severe pain in the head, I will add this separately.

Here's a really old Frisian text:


From: http://en.wikipedia....emden_yew-stick

op hćmu jibada ćmluţ : iwi ok up duna (a)le wimśd ćh ţusa
at home-stays-luck : yew-and-on the hill-grow-Wimoed-has-this

>> "at the homestead stays good fortune, may it also grow near the yew on the terp; Wimśd owns this."

Looijenga dates the stick to after AD 750.

[Alewyn]

Hi Abramelin,

I must apologise for being so insensitive. Here I am arguing about history while you guys must be preparing for an epic battle between the Children of Frya and the strangers from the other side of Wralda’s Sea. Tomorrow it will be the Geertmanne  trying to stop the advance of the Kaltaners.
I am confident, however, that we will see the “Mother’s Sons” facing the “Father’s Sons” on Sunday.
You will no doubt be logistically well prepared and take up the best strategic positions for your offence in both engagements. We will do our best to keep the flag flying here on the Southern tip of Lida's Land.
Good Luck,
Alewyn

[Abramelin]

Alewyn, on 06 July 2010 - 09:26 AM, said:

Hi Abramelin,
I must apologise for being so insensitive. Here I am arguing about history while you guys must be preparing for an epic battle between the Children of Frya and the strangers from the other side of Wralda's Sea. Tomorrow it will be the Geertmanne ;trying to stop the advance of the Kaltaners.

I am confident, however, that we will see the "Mother's Sons" facing the "Father's Sons" on Sunday.You will no doubt be logistically well prepared and take up the best strategic positions for your offence in both engagements. We will do our best to keep the flag flying here on the Southern tip of Lida's Land.

Good Luck,
Alewyn

Yes, hmmm.... thanks, we will prepare for the descendents of "Inka"...

But what about what I posted? Or Puzzler ?

Edited by Abramelin, 06 July 2010 - 09:39 AM.

[The Puzzler]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FROM THE WRITINGS OF MINNO.

When I came away from Athenia with my followers, we arrived at an island named by my crew Kreta, because of the cries that the inhabitants raised on our arrival. When they really saw that we did not come to make war, they were quiet, so that at last I was able to buy a harbour in exchange for a boat and some iron implements, and a piece of land. When we had been settled there a short time, and they discovered that we had no slaves, they were very much astonished; and when I explained to them that we had laws which made everybody equal, they wished to have the same; but they had hardly established them before the whole land was in confusion.

The priests and the princes declared that we had excited their subjects to rebellion, and the people appealed to us for aid and protection. When the princes saw that they were about to lose their kingdom, they gave freedom to their people, and came to me to establish a code of laws. The people, however, got no freedom, and the princes remained masters, acting according to their own pleasure. When this storm had passed, they began to sow divisions among us. They told my people that I had invoked their assistance to make myself permanent king. Once I found poison in my food. So when a ship from Flyland sailed past, I quietly took my departure. Leaving alone, then, my own adventures, I will conclude this history by saying that we must not have anything to do with Finda’s people, wherever it may be, because they are full of false tricks, fully as much to be feared as their sweet wine with deadly poison.

Here ends Minno’s writing.


Hmm, this part is the catastrophe I take it....

During the whole summer the sun had been hid behind the clouds, as if unwilling to look upon the earth. There was perpetual calm, and the damp mist hung like a wet sail over the houses and the marshes. The air was heavy and oppressive, and in men’s hearts was neither joy nor cheerfulness. In the midst of this stillness the earth began to tremble as if she was dying. The mountains opened to vomit forth fire and flames. Some sank into the bosom of the earth, and in other places mountains rose out of the plain. Aldland, called by the seafaring people, Atland, disappeared, and the wild waves rose so high over hill and dale that everything was buried in the sea. Many people were swallowed up by the earth, and others who had escaped the fire perished in the water.

It was not only in Finda’s land that the earth vomited fire, but also in Twiskland (Germany). Whole forests were burned one after the other, and when the wind blew from that quarter our land was covered with ashes. Rivers changed their course, and at their mouths new islands were formed of sand and drift.

During three years this continued, but at length it ceased, and forests became visible. Many countries were submerged, and in other places land rose above the sea, and the wood was destroyed through the half of Twiskland (Germany). Troops of Finda’s people came and settled in the empty places. Our dispersed people were exterminated or made slaves. Then watchfulness was doubly impressed upon us, and time taught us that union is force.

It says Aldland, and that the seafaring people, who were probably Swedish called it Atland. Sounds like volcanic activity. Sounds also a like like the telling of Phaethons myth.

The Magy sound like the Magi to me.  

So, they land at Tyre??   At last they arrived at the Phœnician coast, one hundred and ninety-three years after Atland was submerged. Near the coast they found an island with two deep bays, so that there appeared to be three islands. In the middle one they established themselves, and afterwards built a city wall round the place. Then they wanted to give it a name, but disagreed about it. Some wanted to call it Fryasburgt, others Neeftunia; but the Magyars and Finns begged that it might be called Thyrhisburgt.

Thyr was the name of one of their idols, and it was upon his feast-day that they had landed there;

Thyr, Hyr, almost like Heracles, or even a shortened version Herc. Since Heracles has been there from the beginning of set up at Tyre it could be a connection. Heracles may be Thyr. Is that Thor?

From the Erythraean Sea? Always confusion, Herodotus doesn't seem to mean the Red Sea or he would have said the Gulf of Arabia so he means the Indian Ocean or the translators did anyway in the context of Herodotus. But it never quite fit right and still remains debatable to this day, this actually sheds new light - is this the connection of the Phoenicians into Greece at a timeframe that has Mycenaeans into the Baltic trading amber.
Since we have many Red characters from Norse areas, Eric the Red etc, that the area claimed as being a Red Sea could maybe be in the North Sea.

I am surprised I have never ventured into this Oera Linda business, it might have real answers actually. All my own links back into Hallstat and Celtic lore as well as into Armenia and back into Greece seem to be underlying much of what I have read so far and I'm only just into it. It also seems like a story that could have been concocted by knowing myth very, very well. Why one would put Minos as coming from Scandinavia unless this was something that had happened, from all appearances in the myth it does seem Minos is a foreigner who has bought not only ships and a stop to piracy but laws of justice that many in the Aegean copied. He doesn't die in Crete, which mirrors the info given.

Not surprisingly, I am enthralled and am going to read the whole book to see what it's really about. Then I'll read all your work again properly.

PS: I understand it's a supposed fake and the best reason I see is the paper seems to be made c. 1850, as I said though, I also see no reason it may not be a copy written out by aunt or even grandfather in a more modern context, I can see Aunt doing this.

Before I go, the Phaeaceans imo are the Phocaens, an Ionian Athenian settled people, they were the ones who were the best sailors in the world, they reached Iberia but moved north and settled a Greek colony in Marseilles. I saw your connection before from Frisians to Athenians.
This was just mentioned:
In the northernmost part of the Mediterranean there lies an island close to the coast. They now came and asked to buy that, on which a general council was held.

The mother’s advice was asked, and she wished to see them at some distance, so she saw no harm in it; but as we afterwards saw what a mistake we had made, we called the island Missellia (Marseilles).
There does seem to be a historical connection between the Phoenicians and Phocaeans, all very interesting.

Edited by The Puzzler, 06 July 2010 - 09:49 AM.

[Abramelin]

Please also read what has been written before you started posting in this thread , Puzzler.

The people in the 19th century were no idiots: they read ancient Greek and Latin texts.

My problem is that most of the - let's call them debunkers - are Dutch, or better Frisians, so every time I find something on topic, I have to do a translation first.

And then I have to try to read something in Frisian, jeesh...

So I posted some works by Jensma (a Frisian), in English, and you people conveniently skip past it.

Edited by Abramelin, 06 July 2010 - 10:13 AM.

[Abramelin]

OK, so no one wants to read a pdf. Well, I made screenshots of Jensma's pdf. Here they are (and click on the thumbnails to view in original size) :



From Jensma's summary of "The Masked God - Francois Haverschmidt and the Oera Linda Book"


http://dissertations...askeerdeGod.PDF

Edited by Abramelin, 06 July 2010 - 11:21 AM.

[Alewyn]

Abramelin, on 06 July 2010 - 09:37 AM, said:

Yes, hmmm.... thanks, we will prepare for the descendents of "Inka"...

But what about what I posted? Or Puzzler ?

OK. I wrote that before I could read yours.


What you are saying makes perfectly good sense. You are right: I cannot read old Frisian. In fact, I have difficulty in reading Dutch. I have also not yet read Jensma's "Masked God" but this is not because I chose to ignore it. I simply have not had the time yet.
I am in no position to argue with linguists and if they say the language in the manuscript under discussion is too modern, I also accept that. We are, however, still talking about a single manuscript which may or may not have been transcribed several times in it's past.
The point I am trying to make is that the OLB mentions numerous facts and dates that were not known in the 19th century. How do you explain that?
Not everybody in the Netherlands accept that the OLB is a forgery. On his Website, "Earth's Ancient History (http://www.earth-his.../oera-intro.htm) LC Geerts has the following to say:

1. "The authenticity of the Oera Linda Book has not been proved nor disproved"
2. "Against the prevailing opinion of Historians, there are many reasons to believe that "The Oera Linda Book" is one of the most important books about European history from about 3000 BC to at least to about 500 BC."
3. The time has come that we accept these stories as fact and not struggle with each other about little details. When we do so we can search together and someday we will find evidence of Ancient History."

As for the Thera eruption: I mentioned the Krakatoa eruption merely to demonstrate what could be an example of what happened to the Sanorini Islands when Thera exploded in the 16th century BC. You will recall that the shockwave from Krakatoa circled the earth 7 times in 5 days and earth's climate was affected for 5 years afterwards. The shockwave on its own would have created strong atmospheric disturbances and, most likely, strong winds. Thera's eruption is described as possibly the biggest eruption in 20 000 years. A VEI of between 6 and 7 is bound also to create subsequent or "symphathetic" seismic events such as tremors and earthquakes. Depending on the nature or mode of the eruption, the seismic shock could have been well in excess of 8 on the Richter scale. In fact, there is reason to speculate that the explosion was so large that it heralded in the "Greek Dark Ages".
You mentioned the underwater earthquake of 2004 which create the Tsunami that killed some 200 000 people. Sympathetic earthquakes in this case occured as far away as Iceland - on the other side of the world.
I did mention before that the tsunami from Thera may not have reached the Netherlands, but they would nevertheless have experienced very rough seas. I still believe that is more than likely.
Have I left anything out?