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Immortals


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#136    maximaldecimal

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 10:50 PM

I am reminded of the toaist immortals from Journey to the West.  I like the Anthony C. Yu version University of Chicago Press.  to gain immortality the practice austerities, that is they cultivate thier energies and avoid certain foods and actions.  I think this mirrors the current living healthy theme as a path to longevity.  I also think Marabods  tale about leech like immortals seems to be analogous with the phsicic vampires theme's that seem to be getting more popular in the western mythos but have long been in place in some eastern culture.  Which brings me to the topic of the op.  Becoming immortal through nono-chemical means indicates a capitol based longevity.  This scares me deeply.  If such a thing were to happen and doubtlessly will with the advent of new technology the immortals in question would be the hyper rich.  This would create a vacuum of financial wealth as there would be more and more of the immortal elite which would need to level the financial output in some way.  In other words these immortals would have to put more back into the system than they were taking out.  This is somewhat contradictory to the acruement of profit.  Thus it would be a challenge to make ones profit margins down so that the non-immortal contingent was well looked after.  Indeed it would be a sign of ethics and tact to have employees with a higher margin of profit than the company's percentage.  In otherwords this immortal class would be harming the finances of the mortal class simply by using thier own profits frivelously without supporting those whom are of more meager means and less financial stability.  This kind of class system already exists to a point and at the same time there would be little progress without financial backers and investors.  The vacuum is only a potential hazzard that mirrors one already in action.  In order for finances to become more level the rich must invest in the poor.  This is called employment, but I fear the acruement of funds would become lopesided if immortality became easy and expensive.

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#137    Fitter

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 08:20 AM

View Postmaximaldecimal, on 19 October 2009 - 10:50 PM, said:

I am reminded of the toaist immortals from Journey to the West.  I like the Anthony C. Yu version University of Chicago Press.  to gain immortality the practice austerities, that is they cultivate thier energies and avoid certain foods and actions.  I think this mirrors the current living healthy theme as a path to longevity.  I also think Marabods  tale about leech like immortals seems to be analogous with the phsicic vampires theme's that seem to be getting more popular in the western mythos but have long been in place in some eastern culture.  Which brings me to the topic of the op.  Becoming immortal through nono-chemical means indicates a capitol based longevity.  This scares me deeply.  If such a thing were to happen and doubtlessly will with the advent of new technology the immortals in question would be the hyper rich.  This would create a vacuum of financial wealth as there would be more and more of the immortal elite which would need to level the financial output in some way.  In other words these immortals would have to put more back into the system than they were taking out.  This is somewhat contradictory to the acruement of profit.  Thus it would be a challenge to make ones profit margins down so that the non-immortal contingent was well looked after.  Indeed it would be a sign of ethics and tact to have employees with a higher margin of profit than the company's percentage.  In otherwords this immortal class would be harming the finances of the mortal class simply by using thier own profits frivelously without supporting those whom are of more meager means and less financial stability.  This kind of class system already exists to a point and at the same time there would be little progress without financial backers and investors.  The vacuum is only a potential hazzard that mirrors one already in action.  In order for finances to become more level the rich must invest in the poor.  This is called employment, but I fear the acruement of funds would become lopesided if immortality became easy and expensive.

Always assuming that immortality were expensive and/or required continuous treatment. The gene therapy argument implies a one-off action that would require only a preliminary modification. The issue there would be, of course, the moral dilemma faced by the scientist or technician, or the parents in that the modification to the subject would have to be done at the time of conception. No one would be able to choose to become immortal, as the choice would be made for you before you were born.

In this scenario, I do not think the case for financial instability would carry.

F


#138    maximaldecimal

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 08:53 PM

View PostFitter, on 20 October 2009 - 08:20 AM, said:

No one would be able to choose to become immortal, as the choice would be made for you before you were born.

In this scenario, I do not think the case for financial instability would carry.

F

I paraphrased for space purposes

Yet at the same time this augmentation would be subject to a payment.  I do not think just anyone could afford to have an immortal baby.  In fact it could become a popular thing to make an immortal clone.  Assuming this plausable possible happened there would still be an issue of not only overpopulation but of tact and ethical responsibility on behalf of the immortal children.  Even if they were not financially well off they would have time on thier side.  Even if they had no say in it they would still have to be financed in order to recieve this treatment {at inception or afterwards}.  Thusly they would need a financial base.  The vacuum is not written in stone it is just a paranoid take on a plausible possible.  However I agree that just because someone had recieved such treatment does not automatically point to them being well off.

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#139    HerNibs

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 08:56 PM

If a human is born immortal would they age???

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#140    maximaldecimal

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 09:03 PM

View PostHerNibs, on 20 October 2009 - 08:56 PM, said:

If a human is born immortal would they age???

Nibs

I think the scifi angle of nano chemical immortality would allow them to age normally they just wouldn't entrophate after reaching maturity.  Of course thats just my take on what they are trying to achieve.

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#141    Fitter

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 10:00 PM

View Postmaximaldecimal, on 20 October 2009 - 08:53 PM, said:

I paraphrased for space purposes

Yet at the same time this augmentation would be subject to a payment.  I do not think just anyone could afford to have an immortal baby.  In fact it could become a popular thing to make an immortal clone.  Assuming this plausable possible happened there would still be an issue of not only overpopulation but of tact and ethical responsibility on behalf of the immortal children.  Even if they were not financially well off they would have time on thier side.  Even if they had no say in it they would still have to be financed in order to recieve this treatment {at inception or afterwards}.  Thusly they would need a financial base.  The vacuum is not written in stone it is just a paranoid take on a plausible possible.  However I agree that just because someone had recieved such treatment does not automatically point to them being well off.

If immortality were achievable, then yes I agree, it would be expensive. I don't think the immortal clone business would be quite so popular... people would veer away from that once they realised that the clone, although looking like them, would not actually be them. I wonder if technology advanced that far, would they be able to transplant the essence of 'being' from a mortal person into the clone, once it was grown...? But then, knowing bureaucracy, the Free Life For Clones movement would hold a rally demanding that clones be given the right to choose whether or not their personality was overlaid with that of a dying person !

Maybe, like Douglas Adams suggested, an immortal could just deposit a penny into a bank account and reap the massive interest earned over an extended period of time by simply outliving the hell out of everyone. The financial institutions would introduce clauses and prohibitions to prevent immortals from just such a practice, I guess. Maybe that would drive the immortals banking habits underground, and they would change their name every so often to disguise their investments. Possibly lead them to have to be covert in other factors in their lives.

I see lots of new issues coming out of the woodwork....Not so clear cut, this immortality business is it ?

F


#142    maximaldecimal

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 12:13 AM

I think clone rights and a.i. rights go hand in hand, but that doesn't account for un-programmed units.  Do they have rights?  I don't think the neuro mapping is too terribly far off.  Its all about the pattern especially since it is highly individualistic.  In order to do anything with a subjects brain pattern thier personal neuro pathways would need to be mapped.  It reminds me of the movie, Overdrawn At The Memory Bank in a way. The way it could be stored and placed in virtual surroundings.  With reagards to a.i. clone rights.  There may indeed be a standard of treatment but at the same time it would most likely vary from place to place.  Money makes things happen, sometimes unfortunately without regards to ethics.

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#143    Fitter

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 07:44 AM

View Postmaximaldecimal, on 21 October 2009 - 12:13 AM, said:

I think clone rights and a.i. rights go hand in hand, but that doesn't account for un-programmed units.  Do they have rights?  I don't think the neuro mapping is too terribly far off.  Its all about the pattern especially since it is highly individualistic.  In order to do anything with a subjects brain pattern thier personal neuro pathways would need to be mapped.  It reminds me of the movie, Overdrawn At The Memory Bank in a way. The way it could be stored and placed in virtual surroundings.  With reagards to a.i. clone rights.  There may indeed be a standard of treatment but at the same time it would most likely vary from place to place.  Money makes things happen, sometimes unfortunately without regards to ethics.

Would there be such a thing as an 'un-programmed unit' ? I was under the impression that a human clone would be indistinguishable from a naturally born person, complete with character and personality traits. The only difference would have been the somatic cell nuclear transfer at conception. Even a carrying mother and birth would be the same as 'ordinary.'

But yes, money talks and actively disregards ethics, I agree. And the sad thing is that clone rights and AI rights would vary from place to place too... human rights do now, why not artificial ones ?

F


#144    maximaldecimal

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 07:30 PM

I think there would be such a thing.  The unprogrammed unit represents a clone that had been left unfinished yet had matured to a certain point "in the tube" so to speak.  It would also represent an android capable of storing human thought-patterns that had no real programs of its own.  If the human thought matrix of memory could be reduced to individual chemical and electrical signals then they could be utelized to overwrite either one.  I like to think that use of androids for this function could be utelized by those that could not afford it on a debt basis for a term of service.  That way even families without a lot of financial means could still have thier own robot grandpa.  It would also be quite usefull as the android frame would be much more durable and utilitarian.  This concept of artificial brain mapping, however, would be much further off than a transplant.  Simply putting the brain into a new frame.  A lot of the same mapping procedures would be involved but I think the human brain would be quite expensive to replicate ergo it would be much more affordable for a full cybernetic conversion than for a full android conversion.  The only drawback is with a cyborg conversion you have to keep the brain alive.  To put a mind into an android would insinuate that the memory was mapped during transfer, i.e. there would be a copy somewhere.  Of course if this copy was not updated on a regular basis it would be of the same mind as the one mapped before the procedure.  I can just see it now yes Mr. corp president this is the fivth time we've put you in a new body you just haven't downloaded any of the memories you've had over the last hundred and fifty years.  All we know is you have a bad habit of getting dismantled in the bad part of town.  Oh and the corp went bankrupt twenty years ago you actually owe us a heafty sum for the operation this time.  We've arranged for you to have a job doing cunstruction work on Mars. You have a day to get your affairs in order.

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#145    Fitter

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 10:44 PM

There are over 200 billion neurons in the average human brain of 10,000 different types. With between 5000 and 200,000 possible synaptic connections for each of those neuron types, it means there are more possible connexions for transmission of chemical signals in the human brain than there are stars in the universe... not the galaxy, the universe...

Once you have established that kind of network potential, you have to add the 10,000 billion glia for support and maintenance duties; to control them and make sure they do not destroy the wrong neurons, and then you have a system set up to receive the actual information of  motor control, memory and self awareness.... just to start...

Brain mapping or recording a 'human thought matrix' would be a very tall order indeed...

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#146    MARAB0D

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 08:55 AM

I want to have a clone! I would call him Mini-me.


#147    maximaldecimal

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Posted 23 October 2009 - 04:20 AM

View PostFitter, on 21 October 2009 - 10:44 PM, said:

There are over 200 billion neurons in the average human brain of 10,000 different types. With between 5000 and 200,000 possible synaptic connections for each of those neuron types, it means there are more possible connexions for transmission of chemical signals in the human brain than there are stars in the universe... not the galaxy, the universe...

Once you have established that kind of network potential, you have to add the 10,000 billion glia for support and maintenance duties; to control them and make sure they do not destroy the wrong neurons, and then you have a system set up to receive the actual information of  motor control, memory and self awareness.... just to start...

Brain mapping or recording a 'human thought matrix' would be a very tall order indeed...

F


No argument there I am only using it as a probable possible.  Not to mention I think were still discovering neurotransmitters at the moment, I think were just over thirty if I could remember where I heard that I'd drop a link.  It might have been somewhere in the super brain yoga thread....Steel trap aint what it used to be.

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#148    John from Lowell

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 05:51 PM

Hello Atomicus,

I agree with the basic principal that our bodies are designed to last a lot longer than we think. Much of my thinking alignes with the channeled Kryon information. Essentially the key to long life and physical well being is in our DNA. How we live our life, use the mind and the heart to elevate our percetual reality, has a lot to do with this.

One scientific encouragement for these principlas is advocated by Bruce Lipton.
http://www.brucelipton.com/

His research with the biology of belief is truly fasinating.

John

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#149    King Fluffs

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 07:01 PM

What a lovely article.


#150    wolfknight

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 07:06 PM

WTF are you talking about. This is total BS. I want proof not BS





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