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And the Sun Stood Still


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#91    White Crane Feather

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 10:06 PM

Jor-el. Your assumptions about time dilation around the earth to slow time is completely incorrect.

That is not the way time dialation works. It's merely a function of the speed of light limit.

I don't see the purpose in comeing up with a way for an omnipotent god to stop the sun. If omnipotence is a trait of god, then obviously he just does it. No need for complicated physics.

The other problem I have with the Jesus story is how Christians constantly proclaim god sacrificed his son or himself in human form, yet Jesus is in heaven. Where is the sacrifice? It seems to me there was nothing lost to be a sacrifice. If Jesus sits in heaven on a throne either as god or with god, he obviously wasn't sacrificed.  I dosnt make any sense at all. Blatantly so.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#92    Sherapy

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 10:45 PM

View PostJor-el, on 19 March 2013 - 09:04 PM, said:

That is the God we believe in, not some theoretical being that does not involve itself in its own creation. Why are we believers? Because God is actually there for us and that sometimes includes miracles. You can rationalize it all you want but the truth is that a God that doesn't care for his people is not God at all.
Jor el let me ask you this,
If I got out of the way so my kids could live their lives(age appropriate) would this not be unconditional love at its greatest? I think it would be. It means I respect them as adults, it means I respect and know what they are capable of and in this I am not involved because  I don't  need to be, it doesn't mean I don't love them, it doesn't mean I don't care, It doesn't mean I won't spend time with them, it doesn't mean I won't offer the occasional 'momma miracle' of money(the kind one doesn't have to pay back, or help they can always count on--if/when asked.) It just means I embrace and honor their independence and get out of the way.

Edited by Sherapy, 19 March 2013 - 10:46 PM.




#93    Liquid Gardens

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 10:53 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 19 March 2013 - 10:06 PM, said:

The other problem I have with the Jesus story is how Christians constantly proclaim god sacrificed his son or himself in human form, yet Jesus is in heaven. Where is the sacrifice? It seems to me there was nothing lost to be a sacrifice. If Jesus sits in heaven on a throne either as god or with god, he obviously wasn't sacrificed. I dosnt make any sense at all. Blatantly so.

My thoughts exactly, well put!  A common refrain from Christians is that Jesus was fully human and fully divine simultaneously, when I think that in every way that matters that is a plain contradiction. If Jesus was human, his story is one of many tragic ones, where a mostly peaceful person who largely preached compassion and empathy stood up for what he believed in and his principles and was put to a very violent death, his mortal life was given up and nothing can restore it, it's poignant and sad.  If Jesus was divine, and if we're going to accept his miracle-working he must have been, then it just becomes a game and I'm utterly unmoved by the supposed 'sacrifice' and non-death of the supreme being, especially when it's couched within a, to me, bizarre scenario where he is dying(?) to save all of us from, well, himself and his judgment. A sacrifice requires something to be lost, and Jesus/God didn't give anything up as far as I can tell. Yes, he had to endure a painful death presuming he didn't 'cheat', but sorry, I have a few million mortals who suffered equally painful deaths who are in line for sympathy and consideration before we get to the immortals.

Ha, and all I'm doing here is just proving how accurate the Bible actually is: "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

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#94    Jor-el

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 07:06 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 19 March 2013 - 10:06 PM, said:

Jor-el. Your assumptions about time dilation around the earth to slow time is completely incorrect.

That is not the way time dialation works. It's merely a function of the speed of light limit.

I don't see the purpose in comeing up with a way for an omnipotent god to stop the sun. If omnipotence is a trait of god, then obviously he just does it. No need for complicated physics.

Time dilation is a fancy term used in physics, and that is the understanding that you are taking, but it also means differentiated time in its simplest understanding. Time does not flow equally everywhere in the universe, contrary to public opinion, time is not a constant.

Be that as it may, the theory exists (and it does not contradict modern physics) that one can manipulate the flow of time in a specific location and in so doing speed it up or slow it down. This in turn does not necessarily affect the speed of light or any other measurement one cares to make. In essence what you have done is create a bubble of time that is not in sync with the rest of the universe.

As someone with more knowldge than myself has explained, just like water in a river rushes or slows depending on the size of the channel, time flows at different rates in different places. In other words, time is relative.

http://science.howst...time-travel.htm

(I would draw your attention especially to page two of the article, personally I think it is very well explained.)

Quote

The other problem I have with the Jesus story is how Christians constantly proclaim god sacrificed his son or himself in human form, yet Jesus is in heaven. Where is the sacrifice? It seems to me there was nothing lost to be a sacrifice. If Jesus sits in heaven on a throne either as god or with god, he obviously wasn't sacrificed.  I dosnt make any sense at all. Blatantly so.

A little story if you will...

Imagine one day you die and are taken to heaven, you are saved and God invites you to live with him in his heavenly kingdom. Then God comes to you and asks you for a favour, an eternal favour. He shows you a multitude of world in the universe, and in particular he shows you a specific planet.

On this planet, exists a being, somewhat like a shaggy dog, it is evidentely intelligent, it has built a civilization and it is even discovering its planet in ships built by this race of "shaggy dogs".

God says to you, I am showing you another of my creations, just like humanity, whom I created for myself and my glory, I have also created these "Hezgobins" but they have lost their way, they have turned from me and forgotten their creator. My favour, if you are willing, is to go down there and show thewm the path back to me, back to my word. Will you do this for me?

You look at these beings, they are reaaly different from you, in fact they are extremely ugly, they may look a little like shaggy dogs, but they are so different from anything you have seen that you cannot find beauty in them, but God has asked you for a favour, a sacrifice if you will.

You notice that this race of beings is very violent, they make it a way of life, they kill each other indiscriminately. They destroy what they cannot take, they live by the law of  "might makes right". Yet you know God needs and wants you to go down there and bring them back to him.

So you say yes... You'll do it, just like Jesus did it for you...

Now here is the thing, says God, when I change you into one of them, you will be born among them, you will grow up among them and in the end, if you are faithful, they will return to me, but for this to happen, they must change their nature, for that to happen they have to learn a new path, a better path, but they will hate for it, they will hurt, you, they will torture you and eventually kill you for this. Are you sure that you still want to go?

You think carefully and with smile you say yes. If Jesus did it for me, I will do it for them.

Then God turns to you and says, there is one last thing.

You will never be human again, you will forever retain the shape of these beings, you will rise and be granted glory in my name, but you will forever be one of them...

Are you still willing to go?

You say, Jesus didn't sacrifice anything, but he did, more than you can ever appreciate or consider.

Posted Image


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#95    Jor-el

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 07:10 PM

View PostSherapy, on 19 March 2013 - 10:45 PM, said:

Jor el let me ask you this,
If I got out of the way so my kids could live their lives(age appropriate) would this not be unconditional love at its greatest? I think it would be. It means I respect them as adults, it means I respect and know what they are capable of and in this I am not involved because  I don't  need to be, it doesn't mean I don't love them, it doesn't mean I don't care, It doesn't mean I won't spend time with them, it doesn't mean I won't offer the occasional 'momma miracle' of money(the kind one doesn't have to pay back, or help they can always count on--if/when asked.) It just means I embrace and honor their independence and get out of the way.

And if possible you will always be there for them when they need you.

Now imagine a mommy who never got involved, didn't care either way whether her children lived or died, Didn't provide for them and never game them a "momma miracle" of any kind. Would you still consider her to be a mother to you?

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"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#96    Sherapy

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 07:38 PM

View PostJor-el, on 20 March 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

And if possible you will always be there for them when they need you.

Now imagine a mommy who never got involved, didn't care either way whether her children lived or died, Didn't provide for them and never game them a "momma miracle" of any kind. Would you still consider her to be a mother to you?

Ironically, I had a mother as this, she just could not be the mother that I needed at that point in my early development. Even though she couldn't fulfill the things you outlined she did impart other things.  So yes, I still think of her as my mother.

To be clear, I do not think of her as my mother just because she gave me life either, I think of her as my mother because  in spite of everything we have found a way to work past our circumstances. She has been willing to do her part. No, she is not the traditional great mother of the year, but she has earned(over time) my respect and love for what she has accomplished in spite of her flaws.

Edited by Sherapy, 20 March 2013 - 07:47 PM.




#97    Gold Star

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 07:45 PM

Scientists don't understand scriptures. Believers don't understand them well enough. Joshua's "extra day" didn't come from this planet or any other celestial body stopping its rotation. It came from extremely high technology (higher even than alien technology) creating a large multi-dimensional mirror. The mirror deflected the sun's rays around Joshua's battle area to maintain the apparent position of the sun in the sky for the prescribed time.
The Islamic prophecy that one day in the future the sun will rise in the west will be accomplished in the same manner. As Arthur Clarke noted, "all sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." It is time for the human race, especially believers, to give up all forms of magical thinking and realize that the higher the 'god' the higher the technology is involved in its miracles and marvels.


#98    Jor-el

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 08:08 PM

View PostSherapy, on 20 March 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

Ironically, I had a mother as this, she just could not be the mother that I needed at that point in my early development. Even though she couldn't fulfill the things you outlined she did impart other things.  So yes, I still think of her as my mother.

To be clear, I do not think of her as my mother just because she gave me life either, I think of her as my mother because  in spite of everything we have found a way to work past our circumstances. She has been willing to do her part. No, she is not the traditional great mother of the year, but she has earned(over time) my respect and love for what she has accomplished in spite of her flaws.

Well, my sentiment, not ever having a mothger like that would be that if she wasn't a mother then she certainly isn't a mother now.

To me, I view God in much the same way, a God that is merely an abstraction, that does not involve himself in the lives of his children is not a God I would care to worship. In the same vein, a God that does do all these things is a God I would and do worship. This God is not an abstaction, this God does care for his children and this God in some very anusual ways goes out of his way to provide what many call miracles. The sun standing still (or the perception of this event), is one such event, dividing the Red Sea is another and the creation of this universe yet another, but I would deem the greatest miracle to be that such a being cares for us and loves us.

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#99    Sherapy

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 09:28 PM

View PostJor-el, on 20 March 2013 - 08:08 PM, said:

Well, my sentiment, not ever having a mothger like that would be that if she wasn't a mother then she certainly isn't a mother now.

To me, I view God in much the same way, a God that is merely an abstraction, that does not involve himself in the lives of his children is not a God I would care to worship. In the same vein, a God that does do all these things is a God I would and do worship. This God is not an abstaction, this God does care for his children and this God in some very anusual ways goes out of his way to provide what many call miracles. The sun standing still (or the perception of this event), is one such event, dividing the Red Sea is another and the creation of this universe yet another, but I would deem the greatest miracle to be that such a being cares for us and loves us.


So for you, the way you believe in g-d( or a mother) gives credence to the idea; in other words, according to you, g-d fits a certain bias, basically meaning it is in this way you avoid g-d being an abstraction. Is my understanding correct?

Staying with the mother analogy I think g-d (or a mother) can be experienced in more then one way-- it really seems to be dependent on how one frames their understanding-- and what they believe or do not believe to begin with.

I am not more correct then you on the way I see a mother figure, any more then Ben is in error for interpreting biblical text as a metaphor.

Both your approach and Ben's approach are valid.


They present different ways to look at something.

Edited by Sherapy, 20 March 2013 - 09:29 PM.




#100    Jor-el

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 09:55 PM

View PostSherapy, on 20 March 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:

So for you, the way you believe in g-d( or a mother) gives credence to the idea; in other words, according to you, g-d fits a certain bias, basically meaning it is in this way you avoid g-d being an abstraction. Is my understanding correct?

No it doesn't give it credence, it just demonstrates my attitude toward such a concept, be it of a mother or a God.

It is one of those rules we learn early in life, just because you like a girl, doesn't mean she likes you back, just because you think a friend is someone to be trusted, doesn't actually mean that that person is trustworthy. So what makes them have validity?

Experience. We learn to give love where it is recieved and we learn to trust where it is justified. It is an exercise in futility loving illusions, they can't love you back. Loving an abstract God that has no interaction with humanity is an exercise in futility.

Quote

Staying with the mother analogy I think g-d (or a mother) can be experienced in more then one way-- it really seems to be dependent on how one frames their understanding-- and what they believe or do not believe to begin with.

No it is more a matter of reacting to stimulus. I may continue to love an uncaring mother, but my reaction to her will ultimately be a reflection of her actions toward me. In the same way I could continue to love an uncaring God, but again it would be a reaction of what I recieve from him. Feeling and attitude is mirrored in the response. Rejection breeds rejection, love breeds love, hate breeds hate.

God himself understands this in humanity and purposefully strove to alter our reactions based on others actions, by giving love in the face of hate, by giving care in the face of indifference, but it is always his initial action that leads the way. An uncaring God would not elicit anything but an uncaring people.

Quote

I am not more correct then you on the way I see a mother figure, any more then Ben is in error for interpreting biblical text as a metaphor.

Both your approach and Ben's approach are valid.


They present different ways to look at something.

I would disagree on one basic and fundamental principle, one can read whatever one wants into a text.... if you disregard the rules of textual analysis. It isn't that metaphores and metaphorical language don't exist within the bible, it is found in many places, but this simply isn't one of those places. If it were I wouldn't fight his interpretation of said text, I would just consider it one of a number of different possible views.

Aside from this, if he is completely satisfied he is in the right, then he should be able to make a good case for his view, I haven't seen anything yet that changes my mind in this regard.

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-C. S. Lewis


#101    Liquid Gardens

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:25 PM

View PostJor-el, on 20 March 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:

You will never be human again, you will forever retain the shape of these beings, you will rise and be granted glory in my name, but you will forever be one of them...

Just curious, is there any support for this view in the Bible?  Jesus is now 'forever human' in a way that God is not?  I don't know of any humans that can perform miracles so I don't think he was really human in the first place.  What kind of being was Jesus prior to accepting God's offer using your analogy here?

Quote

You say, Jesus didn't sacrifice anything, but he did, more than you can ever appreciate or consider.

And more than you can actually specify either apparently.  It's a straightforward question, what did Jesus give up/sacrifice when he allowed himself to be crucified?  What 'future' (not sure that time actually applies to heaven) was Jesus unable to realize because of the sacrifice he made that he 1) can't just experience in some perfectly duplicated alternate universe he can create at will or 2) hasn't already experienced since he is omniscient?

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#102    Sherapy

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:53 PM

View PostJor-el, on 20 March 2013 - 09:55 PM, said:

No it doesn't give it credence, it just demonstrates my attitude toward such a concept, be it of a mother or a God.

It is one of those rules we learn early in life, just because you like a girl, doesn't mean she likes you back, just because you think a friend is someone to be trusted, doesn't actually mean that that person is trustworthy. So what makes them have validity?

Experience. We learn to give love where it is recieved and we learn to trust where it is justified. It is an exercise in futility loving illusions, they can't love you back. Loving an abstract God that has no interaction with humanity is an exercise in futility.




No it is more a matter of reacting to stimulus. I may continue to love an uncaring mother, but my reaction to her will ultimately be a reflection of her actions toward me. In the same way I could continue to love an uncaring God, but again it would be a reaction of what I recieve from him. Feeling and attitude is mirrored in the response. Rejection breeds rejection, love breeds love, hate breeds hate.

God himself understands this in humanity and purposefully strove to alter our reactions based on others actions, by giving love in the face of hate, by giving care in the face of indifference, but it is always his initial action that leads the way. An uncaring God would not elicit anything but an uncaring people.


I would disagree on one basic and fundamental principle, one can read whatever one wants into a text.... if you disregard the rules of textual analysis. It isn't that metaphores and metaphorical language don't exist within the bible, it is found in many places, but this simply isn't one of those places. If it were I wouldn't fight his interpretation of said text, I would just consider it one of a number of different possible views.

Aside from this, if he is completely satisfied he is in the right, then he should be able to make a good case for his view, I haven't seen anything yet that changes my mind in this regard.


In practical terms; applied, (in the context of real life relationships) the above bolded is sound, at least in my experience.

For me, a case has not been made that the g-d you reference meets this criteria, except in abstract theory.

With that being said, I am fine with your position, I know you are a man of faith who walks a path that works best for you.

I equally enjoy reading your posts as well as Ben's.

For me, both of you contribute perspectives that are interesting.

Edited by Sherapy, 20 March 2013 - 11:14 PM.




#103    White Crane Feather

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 05:19 AM

View PostJor-el, on 20 March 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:



Time dilation is a fancy term used in physics, and that is the understanding that you are taking, but it also means differentiated time in its simplest understanding. Time does not flow equally everywhere in the universe, contrary to public opinion, time is not a constant.

Be that as it may, the theory exists (and it does not contradict modern physics) that one can manipulate the flow of time in a specific location and in so doing speed it up or slow it down. This in turn does not necessarily affect the speed of light or any other measurement one cares to make. In essence what you have done is create a bubble of time that is not in sync with the rest of the universe.

As someone with more knowldge than myself has explained, just like water in a river rushes or slows depending on the size of the channel, time flows at different rates in different places. In other words, time is relative.

http://science.howst...time-travel.htm

(I would draw your attention especially to page two of the article, personally I think it is very well explained.)



A little story if you will...

Imagine one day you die and are taken to heaven, you are saved and God invites you to live with him in his heavenly kingdom. Then God comes to you and asks you for a favour, an eternal favour. He shows you a multitude of world in the universe, and in particular he shows you a specific planet.

On this planet, exists a being, somewhat like a shaggy dog, it is evidentely intelligent, it has built a civilization and it is even discovering its planet in ships built by this race of "shaggy dogs".

God says to you, I am showing you another of my creations, just like humanity, whom I created for myself and my glory, I have also created these "Hezgobins" but they have lost their way, they have turned from me and forgotten their creator. My favour, if you are willing, is to go down there and show thewm the path back to me, back to my word. Will you do this for me?

You look at these beings, they are reaaly different from you, in fact they are extremely ugly, they may look a little like shaggy dogs, but they are so different from anything you have seen that you cannot find beauty in them, but God has asked you for a favour, a sacrifice if you will.

You notice that this race of beings is very violent, they make it a way of life, they kill each other indiscriminately. They destroy what they cannot take, they live by the law of  "might makes right". Yet you know God needs and wants you to go down there and bring them back to him.

So you say yes... You'll do it, just like Jesus did it for you...

Now here is the thing, says God, when I change you into one of them, you will be born among them, you will grow up among them and in the end, if you are faithful, they will return to me, but for this to happen, they must change their nature, for that to happen they have to learn a new path, a better path, but they will hate for it, they will hurt, you, they will torture you and eventually kill you for this. Are you sure that you still want to go?

You think carefully and with smile you say yes. If Jesus did it for me, I will do it for them.

Then God turns to you and says, there is one last thing.

You will never be human again, you will forever retain the shape of these beings, you will rise and be granted glory in my name, but you will forever be one of them...

Are you still willing to go?

You say, Jesus didn't sacrifice anything, but he did, more than you can ever appreciate or consider.
'Time' dosnt 'flow' anywhere. It's merely the differences in how any particular clock records it's ticks. All this is just the effect of information being constrained by the speed of light limit. There is no 'time' it's just how any individual frame of reference ticks compared to another. There is no 'time' to enable change, change just happens. There can be no time bubble, there are no temporal rifts, and without "divine magic", there is nothing in physics no matter how sophisticated that even hints that any of this is possible on a physical level.

Look, I believe in miricles, and even god, though probably not the same as yours. It's just silly and makes theists look bad when they try to fit something like this into their rhetoric simply to defend literalism.

As to the rest of it, please correct if I'm wrong, you are saying that the sacrifice of Christ was that he has to be a wretched human for eternity because he was sent to save us? Is that scriptually supported? If not, don't give me a story give it to us straight.

How exactly was Jesus a sacrifice? It would seem to me that 30 or so years on earth would be a mere blip in gods eyes and his death would be simply a comeing home or if he is god, then the simple death of his avatar... Much like a video game. I really want to know the Christian reasoning behind this. A straight answer would be nice.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#104    Jor-el

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 06:04 PM

View PostLiquid Gardens, on 20 March 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

Just curious, is there any support for this view in the Bible?  Jesus is now 'forever human' in a way that God is not?  I don't know of any humans that can perform miracles so I don't think he was really human in the first place.  What kind of being was Jesus prior to accepting God's offer using your analogy here?

The official christian viewpoint is that Jesus is equally human and equally divine. It is not 50% of each, but rather 100% of each, if that makes any sense. The bible states that Jesus is the  radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being.

What this means is that God essentially put a part of himself into a physical shell and that part of God can never leave that shell again. This human shell in essence has become the visible part of God. That is why when Jesus says, when you see him you have seen God the Father, he is expressing this exact idea.

In answer to you other question, Jesus was a part of God a part of the Godhead. It is the Godhead that is God. In simpler terms, a cup of water is still water, it is not something else, just because it is an a cup.


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And more than you can actually specify either apparently.  It's a straightforward question, what did Jesus give up/sacrifice when he allowed himself to be crucified?  What 'future' (not sure that time actually applies to heaven) was Jesus unable to realize because of the sacrifice he made that he 1) can't just experience in some perfectly duplicated alternate universe he can create at will or 2) hasn't already experienced since he is omniscient?

So you figure, since you have the power why not use, it?

Is that the image you have of God?

I said in an earlier post, God doesn't go back on his word and he doesn't abandon that word, in the same vein God doesn't create the natural physical laws then go about breaking them whenever he feels like it. If you think that my analogy doesn't explain enough to your satisfaction then I can't help you either, since you will always have a "but" in there somewhere.

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"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#105    Jor-el

Jor-el

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 06:05 PM

View PostSherapy, on 20 March 2013 - 10:53 PM, said:

In practical terms; applied, (in the context of real life relationships) the above bolded is sound, at least in my experience.

For me, a case has not been made that the g-d you reference meets this criteria, except in abstract theory.

With that being said, I am fine with your position, I know you are a man of faith who walks a path that works best for you.

I equally enjoy reading your posts as well as Ben's.

For me, both of you contribute perspectives that are interesting.

I can appreciate and live with that, :yes:

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"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis





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