38 replies to this topic

[Seeker79]

It's all true.

There are only two outcomes for this.

1) we reach a technological singularity in which technology saves us from ourselves.

2) we suffer a correction of emense proportions that puts us back to what nature designed us for.

This is hamanities first go at a technological  society, ( so we think), Its obvious we did not get it right. Number 2 seems imenant.

It's a race between the two. I'd like to see the first option, but my bet is on the second.

[Mr Walker]

Sorry sushil, but i do not agree with your basic premise. Humans are here and have a right to exist Not only that but to make our existence as healthy and productive as possible  I would not like to live without painkillers penicillin; and drugs to stop deady carriers of suffering like tetanus, measles, mumps, polio or the black death. Human's technological ability changes our world whether we like it or not.

Australian aboriginal people have lived on my continent for over 50000 years. Despite only stone age technology they have completely altered the natural enironment, wiping out many species and creating a fire -climax ecosystem on the mainland. Off shore islands, which have never been inhabited by aboriginal people, show us what the natural environment would be like without human presence

So, given human presence and our abilities, our duty  to ourselves, others on the planet now, future generations and the environment, is to live sustainably. AND we can do this by changing "western" culture. On going growth, consumerism, waste and planned obsolesence is NOT sustainable, but the earth can support many humans comfortably in a technological society, with common sense and planning.

[sushil yadav]

Seeker79, on 23 April 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

It's all true.

There are only two outcomes for this.

1) we reach a technological singularity in which technology saves us from ourselves.

2) we suffer a correction of immense proportions that puts us back to what nature designed us for.

This is humanities first go at a technological  society, ( so we think), Its obvious we did not get it right. Number 2 seems imminent.

It's a race between the two. I'd like to see the first option, but my bet is on the second.

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Stop Education.....Close Down Universities.

Stop Urban Work......Close Down the Cities.
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Cities are the Graveyards of Nature, Urban Dwellers the Executioners.

Environment has been destroyed by Urban Work and Urban Education.
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Urban Society is not only destroying environment moment by moment, It is also celebrating every moment of destruction.

Destruction.....Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Construction Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Oil Drilling, Oil Refining, Transportation Industry, Millions of kilometers of Rail and Road Networks, Air Routes and Shipping Lanes are destroying environment moment by moment.

Celebration.....Entertainment Industry, Sports Industry, Tourism Industry, Shopping Malls and Restaurants are providing non-stop entertainment to Urban Society.
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If Urban Society stops its supplies to Rural Society it will live forever.

If Rural Society stops its supplies to Urban Society it will die within a month.

This is the worth of Urban Work in this world.

This is the worth of Progress, Growth, Development.

This is the worth of Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP.

This is the worth of Consumer Goods and Services.

The planet is dying and gasping for last breath because of Urban Population.
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This planet can only sustain "Food Searching" or "Food Producing" societies....For millions of years "searching for food"/ "producing food" was the primary occupation on earth.

The whole society needs to be reorganized...Urban Dwellers have to be relocated in Rural Areas....Urban Dwellers have to either transform into full time food producers or they have to stop working in order to save the remaining environment from destructive Urban Work....They can be given food for free in order to save the remaining environment from destructive Urban Work.

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Edited by sushil yadav, 21 May 2013 - 06:18 AM.

[Mr Walker]

sushil yadav, on 21 May 2013 - 06:17 AM, said:

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Stop Education.....Close Down Universities.

Stop Urban Work......Close Down the Cities.
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Cities are the Graveyards of Nature, Urban Dwellers the Executioners.

Environment has been destroyed by Urban Work and Urban Education.
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Urban Society is not only destroying environment moment by moment, It is also celebrating every moment of destruction.

Destruction.....Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Construction Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Oil Drilling, Oil Refining, Transportation Industry, Millions of kilometers of Rail and Road Networks, Air Routes and Shipping Lanes are destroying environment moment by moment.

Celebration.....Entertainment Industry, Sports Industry, Tourism Industry, Shopping Malls and Restaurants are providing non-stop entertainment to Urban Society.
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If Urban Society stops its supplies to Rural Society it will live forever.

If Rural Society stops its supplies to Urban Society it will die within a month.

This is the worth of Urban Work in this world.

This is the worth of Progress, Growth, Development.

This is the worth of Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP.

This is the worth of Consumer Goods and Services.

The planet is dying and gasping for last breath because of Urban Population.
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This planet can only sustain "Food Searching" or "Food Producing" societies....For millions of years "searching for food"/ "producing food" was the primary occupation on earth.

The whole society needs to be reorganized...Urban Dwellers have to be relocated in Rural Areas....Urban Dwellers have to either transform into full time food producers or they have to stop working in order to save the remaining environment from destructive Urban Work....They can be given food for free in order to save the remaining environment from destructive Urban Work.

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You didnt spend any time under pol pots regime by any chance did you? This is right out of  his political party's manifesto.

It is also rubbish, as I pointed out by the impact of indigenous people in australia. We cant go forward by going backward. The only way to remake earth as a sustainable ecosystem is by the application of more technology not less.  Eg the direct conversion of energy to matter and vice versa, so that raw materials are not needed for building, and the use of teleportaion to transport peole and goods. In my state we have some days when enough renewable enrgy is produced to power the entire state. On average it is approaching 30 % of  total energy use. That is largely wind but increasingly solar power, and new technologies like geo thermal and wave power.

And we will achieve this.

Edited by Mr Walker, 21 May 2013 - 08:26 AM.

[sushil yadav]

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After torturing, slaughtering and decimating millions of species on earth humans call themselves the Most Superior Species.

Height of Insanity.....Insanity raised to the power of Infinity.

If millions of other species could vote, man would not get even a single vote for "Most Superior Species" but millions of votes for "Most Inferior Species".

Human Species is the Most Insane, Abnormal and Criminal Species on earth.

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Millions in this world have died for trivial reasons.

Millions in this world have killed for trivial reasons.

Millions have died and killed for Family, Honour, Country, Religion, Money, Fame and Possessions.

Only a handful have died for environment without which Family, Honour, Country, Religion, Money, Fame and Possessions will not even exist.

Only a handful have killed for environment without which Family, Honour, Country, Religion, Money, Fame and Possessions will not even exist.

The planet is dying.....It is gasping for last breath.

Radical Actions are needed.

Stop Education.....Close Down Universities.

Stop Urban Work.....Close Down the Cities.

Do it Now.

A few years later would be too late.

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**Oath of Environmentalists in Industrial Society**

Violence is Wrong....Violence is Unacceptable.

We will not indulge in violence to save environment.

We are willing to participate in violence against nature but not against man.

Violence against nature is okay, violence against man is not.

We are willing to witness the Torture, Slaughter and Decimation of millions of other species but not violence against man.

We are willing to witness the destruction of environment till the time there is no environment left on earth but we will not tolerate violence against People and Institutions that are destroying the environment moment by moment.

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People who think they are Non Violent are highly mistaken.

No one is Non Violent in Industrial Society.

Every citizen of Industrial Society is a Serial Killer.....Serial Killer of nature.....Serial Killer of animals, trees, air, water and land.

Industrial Society has killed billions of farm animals in Slaughter Houses and billions of wild animals in forests with Industrial Activity for making consumer goods and services.....If we divide this number by total Industrial population we get per capita killing of animals.

Industrial Society has killed billions of Trees in forests with Industrial Activity for making consumer goods and services.....If we divide this number by total Industrial population we get per capita killing of Trees.

Industrial Activity has produced billions of tonnes of solid, liquid and gaseous Industrial Waste.....This waste has polluted and poisoned air, water and soil....If we divide this number by total Industrial population we get per capita waste which is a measure of per capita killing of air, water and soil.

Every citizen of Industrial Society is a Serial Killer.....Serial Killer of nature.....Serial Killer of animals, trees, air, water and land.

Even those amongst us who are living very simple lives are still using at least some consumer goods and services whose production and use destroys nature directly or indirectly.

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** No punishment for the biggest crime on earth???? **

** No punishment for the crime which is billions of times bigger than the next biggest crime on earth???? **

** No punishment for the torture, slaughter and decimation of millions of species????.....No punishment for destruction of most of the biodiversity and ecosystems on earth???? **

Promoters of Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP are the biggest killers, murderers and terrorists on earth.

No punishment for the People and Institutions that have destroyed the planet in the name of Progress, Growth and Development???

No punishment for poisoning the planet with trillions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical waste, Gaseous waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste???

No punishment for killing billions of acres of fertile soil [that was the source of food to millions of species] with Cement, Concrete and Asphalt???

No punishment for decimating fish in the oceans????.....No punishment for turning oceans acidic and warmer????.....No punishment for creating oxygen deprived dead zones in the oceans???

This planet belonged to millions of species, not just man alone.

Man has taken over the entire planet....The Land, The Sky, The Oceans.

Promoters of Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP are the biggest killers, murderers and terrorists on earth.

No punishment for the People and Institutions that have destroyed the planet in the name of Progress, Growth and Development???

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This planet can only sustain "Food Searching" or "Food Producing" societies....For millions of years "searching for food"/ "producing food" was the primary occupation on earth.

The whole society needs to be reorganized...Urban Dwellers have to be relocated in Rural Areas....Urban Dwellers have to either transform into full time food producers or they have to stop working in order to save the remaining environment from destructive Urban Work....They can be given food for free in order to save the remaining environment from destructive Urban Work.

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A pure non-industrial society is not possible now because Industrialization has increased world population to 7 billion.......World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion in just about 200 years after industrialization.......In the absence of industrialization world population would have been less than 2 billion today.

If we want to save the remaining environment we must minimize the things that are destroying environment.

At present we are destroying environment for Food, Clothing, Shelter plus Thousands of Industrial consumer goods and services.

We must eliminate the things that were added last to the list......which means Thousands of consumer goods and services, most of which have existed for only about 100 years out of Hundreds of Thousands of years of Total Human Existence on earth .........these have to be eliminated.

We are approaching Environmental Apocalypse.......The only way to save the remaining environment is by stopping Industrial Activity for production of consumer goods and services immediately........Industrial Activity must be primarily limited to food, clothing and shelter.......and even in these three fields production and consumption must be kept to the minimum.

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[Mr Walker]

You are wrong. A "post industrial society" can  both sustain humans, and return the planet to a balanced ecology, It requires a smaller population and a wiser apporach to living based on "sustainable consumerism and making things which last  OR making things which do not require naturala resouces, such as by using energy fields to make housing furniture etc. The technology  for these is coming in the next few decades.

Your alternative condemns humans to   short lives of pain and misery, with no hope for a better future. its how humans lived for millenia when they had no alternatve. It actually requires us to live like non- self aware animals in order to survive, and because we are self aware and know the future consequences of our actions that is not acceptable.

As I've said before it sounds much like the way of life promoted by the kymer rouge where all had to be self sustaining food producers and anyone who wore glasses was killed because it meant they could read and were thus intellectuals.

Ps in a society such as yours we are still going to be killing animals for food and doing it less humanely than we do now. We are still going to be altering and destroying the natural environment, but we wont have the skills or technology to restore it.

Pps Is this  rant your own creation or is it simply "copied and pasted" from one of the many such movements  that exist today the reason I ask is that it shows no evidence of thinking through and extrpolating what would really happen in a world such as you envisage.

Either that or you dont care.

Finally every human being is a survivor of a regime of natural selection Ofen we have to kill to survive. It happens that our technology makes us more efficient killers but we are no more natural killers than any other natural killer on earth The difference is that we can chose to modify our behaviours.

Edited by Mr Walker, 02 June 2013 - 10:51 PM.

[sushil yadav]

You are totally ignorant of the magnitude of environmental destruction.

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Pol Pot was only trying to rectify the wrongs of Industrial Society.

If Industrial Society had not come into existence he would not have needed to bring about a change.

Agrarian Society sustained for 10,000 years and would have sustained for ever if it had not been replaced by Industrial Society.

Pol Pot will look like an angel if you compare his crimes with those of Industrial Society.

Millions of species were not decimated by Pol Pot.....They were decimated by Industrial Society.

Billions of tonnes of Metal waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste were not produced by Pol Pot....They were produced by Industrial Society.

The number of people killed by Pol Pot will look very small when you compare it with millions of people killed by "Military Industrial Complex" in war and violence.
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This planet is home to millions of species, Not just man alone.

this planet is not the private property of man who can do whatever he wants.

Millions of other species destroy environment only for food.

Man has destroyed environment for thousands of consumer goods and services in addition to food, clothing and shelter.

It is crystal clear that man is the defective species, the anomaly.

There is nothing to discuss, debate or argue about this issue.

Millions of other species have already been decimated....If humans don't learn the lesson and continue with Industrial Activity then they are going to get decimated/ wiped out very soon.
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More than 99.9% destruction of this planet has already happened.....Only the end of humans is yet to happen.

Most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems have already been destroyed.

Species are not lost when they become extinct....Species are lost when they get decimated....Species were lost when their populations dropped from billions and millions before industrialization to thousands and hundreds after industrialization.

There are(were) millions of species in this world....Most of them have already been decimated because Industrial Activity has destroyed most of the forests....Millions of Plant and Animal species have been decimated by Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Construction Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Oil Drilling, Oil Refining, Transportation Industry, Millions of kilometers of Rail and Road Networks, Ports and Airports..

If we calculate the decline in populations of millions of species after industrialization the combined loss will come to more than 99.9%.

Rivers, Lakes, Oceans, Atmosphere and Land have been polluted, poisoned and killed by trillions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.....The entire planet has become a Toxic Dump.....All Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Industrial Waste that has been produced by Industrial Society in 250 years after Industrial Revolution has accumulated on earth....It has not gone out of earth.

Oceans have turned acidic and warmer and there are oxygen deprived dead zones in the oceans....Fish in the oceans have been decimated by Industrial Fishing.

Billions of acres of fertile soil that was the source of food to millions of species has been killed by Cement, Concrete and Asphalt.

More than 99.9% destruction of this planet has already happened.....Only the end of humans is yet to happen.

A society that has destroyed all the natural resources of the planet will also destroy itself.

After destroying biodiversity and ecosystems which sustained human life for millions of years man will not exist...It is only a matter of a few years now.

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Edited by sushil yadav, 03 June 2013 - 02:01 PM.

[Mr Walker]

Well if that is the case we deserve what we get. But I suspect that in a few hundred years earth will be an ecological paradise populated by a billion or less humans, living in a technology we cant even comprehend yet.

The rest of humanity willl be  out among the other planets and solar systems possibly even further, using transmat/matter transmission technology.  Half of the world is already below replacement fertility. In 40 years the whole world will be. Soon after that the population will drop rapidly.

But that is not the only thing, we will be using technologies which do not rely on non renewable resources but are sustainable and  humans will be more like androids with robotic enhancements and access to ultra powerful computer processing built into our brains We will be virtually immortal  and probably communicating with other sentient beings around the galaxy. Our environment will not be built as we know it now, but constructed from our abilty to fully utilise energy and to convert matter to energy and back again. Thus, simply by using the power of our sun and moving up to a level two solar civilization, (on the Kardashev scale) we will create what we need from computer templates using only energy. That includes the ability to recreate all plant and animal life on earth and totally reseed it, or other terraformed planets, as we need to

Sure we need to do all we can to protect our planet  (and ourselves) until  all that happens but, really, you worry too much, and it shows.


Ps i threw in the comparison with pol pot to show the danger of your thoughts, but your response only shows your thoughts are more dangerous than I  had realised. There is no point in saving the world by destroying humanity, and the actions you suggest would destroy humanity as we now know and understand it. It would take us back 100000 years, and make us nothing but upright apes again. At this point in time only humanity can restore our planet, and in the future  make a positive difference to the rest of our universe.


Ps i am both biased and optimistic. But then I live in a world where  I do not experience the things you talk about. As an educated geography teacher I am aware of the effect of man on earth but you exaggerate our effect. I lived for 30 years more than  20 miles form the nearest settlement, where i could look up at the sky at night without any artificial light intruding on my view, where i could look out on natual woodlands with only two or three other houses anywhere in sight for a dozen miles, and where I can walk for miles on beautiful beaches without seeing another human being Where the only sounds to be heard are those of nature.

I wouldn't live in a city for quids.

Ps i am also  biased because i would have been dead 10 years ago at the age of 52, if not for modern medical technology which is a product also of our tehnological society. And probably if we lived in a world such as you desire, i would have died as a child from one of many diseases and my mother would have likely died in pain and suffering during childbirth. i would be living in a dark age of superstition without electricity to "light the night" and create psychological illumination in human minds.

Edited by Mr Walker, 04 June 2013 - 11:40 AM.

[sushil yadav]

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Industrial Nations are used to threatening their adversaries with Military Might and Nuclear Weapons.

How are they going to deal with Climate which is getting more and more extreme day by day???

Are they going to nuke Hurricanes and Tornadoes too???

Are they going to nuke Droughts and Floods too???

The west used to think droughts and floods are problems of Asia, Africa and poor countries of the world....They are now occurring in the west too.

The day is not far when Agriculture will collapse worldwide due to extreme and irregular weather.

What is man going to eat???.....He has already decimated fish in the oceans.
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Industrial Society is a lunatic society which talks about Justice, Welfare, Morality and Equality after torturing, slaughtering and decimating millions of species and destroying Forests, Rivers and Oceans.
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Jobs or Environment???

Economy or Environment???

This is just unbelievable.....The very fact that man needs to debate this issue shows how insane Industrial Society is.

Without environment man will not even exist.

Jobs have destroyed Environment....Urban Jobs have destroyed Environment.

Economy has destroyed Environment....Millions of other species don't need an economy to live on earth....Human species is the only lunatic one which thinks it needs one.

Endless Discussion, Debate and Argument is a disease and insanity of Industrial Society that invented the Printing Press, Radio, Television and Internet.

Billions of pages of discussion is another harmful waste of Industrial Society just like Billions of Tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.
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Industrial Society is a lunatic society that takes pride in keeping its cities clean but is not ashamed of littering the entire planet with Industrial Waste.

The entire planet has turned into a Landfill, Garbage Dump, Toxic Dump.

Rivers, Lakes, Oceans, Atmosphere and Land have been polluted, poisoned and contaminated with billions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.

Industrial Activity produces three kinds of Industrial Waste......Solid, Liquid and Gaseous......There are only three places on earth where this waste can go - Air, Water and Soil.....There is no fourth place on earth where it can go.....All Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Industrial Waste that has been produced by Industrial Society in 250 years after Industrial Revolution has accumulated on earth....It has not gone out of earth.
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Stop Education.....Close Down Universities.

Stop Urban Work.....Close Down the Cities.
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