309 replies to this topic

[willowdreams]

Beckys_Mom, on 01 February 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

Cheery picking is at the head of the table there..Which is why I cannot hold doubt in so many editing it to suit themselves

yanno, my issue with ANY 'holy' book and religion is the prayer thing.. pray for this.. because i have a test coming and need to pass.. or 'pray for me, i am ill'

It is like, IF there is a god, said god knows what you need, but why should god listen to you and give you what you need, when you are more then capable of studying for your test, or going to a doctor and doing what you need to get better.. why is your illness or whatever more important than that child breing raped down the road by their father or mother.. or that starving homeless child in the other country.. or those pple trapped in the coalmines trying to do their job and is suffocating.

if god is going to answer your prayer because you are so good as to ask for it, then perhaps something is major wrong here.. because there are to many homeless/abused/terrified pple out there.. who need help worse.. and not getting it.

See what i mean?

I know many pple cherry pick the bible, but that is because in most places, bible is used more.. now in some countries this is not true, but let us face it, in those countries, if you cherry pick the quaran (however it is spelled), in public.. it can get you punished.. if not killed.

cherry pick the safer one. you live longer

[Beckys_Mom]

willowdreams, on 01 February 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

yanno, my issue with ANY 'holy' book and religion is the prayer thing.. pray for this.. because i have a test coming and need to pass.. or 'pray for me, i am ill'

It is like, IF there is a god, said god knows what you need, but why should god listen to you and give you what you need, when you are more then capable of studying for your test, or going to a doctor and doing what you need to get better.. why is your illness or whatever more important than that child breing raped down the road by their father or mother.. or that starving homeless child in the other country.. or those pple trapped in the coalmines trying to do their job and is suffocating.

if god is going to answer your prayer because you are so good as to ask for it, then perhaps something is major wrong here.. because there are to many homeless/abused/terrified pple out there.. who need help worse.. and not getting it.

See what i mean?

I know many pple cherry pick the bible, but that is because in most places, bible is used more.. now in some countries this is not true, but let us face it, in those countries, if you cherry pick the quaran (however it is spelled), in public.. it can get you punished.. if not killed.

cherry pick the safer one. you live longer

I no longer use a bible to cherry pick it...  

For the rest of what you bring up.. Praying, no one can ever know as to why god doesn't help those in serious need..   All they will care about is god looking out for them... Some have the gall to brag how god will even give them money  stop them from drinking or taking drugs / smoking etc..  But not give a rap for those who are in more need... These people will never know why god does what he does, all they will want is something for themselves

In a burning building..300 people ..290 are killed, ten are saved.. The ten saved can say - "God saved us.". But what they wont say is - God didn't save the others...   You might get some arrogant plonker who will have his head up his rear and he may say - Well, god saved me because I am closer, those 290 that died, just didn't pray right and were not as close to god like me  .. Believe it or not,  I have seen people say just that..

Another thing... If god did go and save every person from pain, suffering, disease, rape, murder, hunger  etc ..No one would need to pray for much...  Because these bad things happen, this is what brings on the praying..

[Crikey]

ranrod, on 01 February 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

You really don't understand that the bible is your claim, not your proof :/

If you're going to start disbelieving history books like the Bible, you'd better burn all other books too, and close down libraries..

[scowl]

Crikey, on 01 February 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

Not all early Christians were poor, for example by doing some detective work we find that:-
Marks mother was one of the Marys (Acts 12:12) from an influential and probably wealthy family
John the disciple was also from a wealthy family (Mark 1:20; Luke 5:3; John 19:27)

I know lots of people who are from wealthy families and aren't wealthy.

Quote

Paul was an ex-bounty hunter and tentmaker.

These were labor trades.

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Luke was a doctor (2 Tim. 4:11)

Doctors made little more than barbers before the 20th century.

[Crikey]

Liquid Gardens, on 01 February 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

We know the Beatles existed and that they made music.....And what many Christians want me to know about Jesus I don't think is fab at all, quite the opposite.

Why don't you think this is fab and great?-
"Love God, love one another, feed the hungry, house the homeless, clothe the destitute, tend the sick, visit the prisoners, look after the poor"- Jesus of Nazareth (Mark 12:30, John 13:34, Matt 25: 37-40)

[Liquid Gardens]

Crikey, on 01 February 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

Why don't you think this is fab and great?-
"Love God, love one another, feed the hungry, house the homeless, clothe the destitute, tend the sick, visit the prisoners, look after the poor"- Jesus of Nazareth (Mark 12:30, John 13:34, Matt 25: 37-40)

Nothing wrong with that necessarily (not sure about 'Love God') but according to many believers, that is not all that 'Jesus' is about, it all depends on what we're going to choose and rank from the Bible.  If a lot more songs like 'Revolution 9' were created by the Beatles, I don't think you'd accept someone just responding to the assertion that the Beatles weren't that great with, 'what part of 'Strawberry Fields Forever' and 'A Day in the Life' is not fab and good?'.  Don't get me wrong, it's not that I think Jesus had a lot of Revolution 9s (although the OT is littered with them), but the bar for him is far higher than it is for sinful mortals like the Beatles.

[Crikey]

Actually I've lost track of what this thread is supposed to be about, I've read the opening post and it's title (below) but I'm still none the wiser. Are atheists saying they've got problems? And what's the 'counterpart' bit mean exactly?

Atheism - any contradictions or 'problems'?
Does atheism have a counterpart similar to the 'problem of evil'?

Edited by Crikey, 01 February 2013 - 07:08 PM.

[Liquid Gardens]

Crikey, on 01 February 2013 - 07:07 PM, said:

Actually I've lost track of what this thread is supposed to be about, I've read the opening post and it's title (below) but I'm still none the wiser. Are atheists saying they've got problems? And what's the 'counterpart' bit mean exactly?

I think the question in the OP was answered a while ago, atheism doesn't have potentially inherent contradictions or 'problems' like specific religions sometimes do, such as represented by the problem of evil.  I mainly wanted to give theists a chance to bash whatever problems they see in atheism, but I was comparing apples and oranges with my original question somewhat as 'atheism' is very general whereas the problem of evil relates to a specific conception of God.  

I guess though I don't know if theists think that atheism is not a good answer all on its own because of flaws in the concept, or if they just believe that theism is a better answer.  If you are a theist, do you understand from a logical and rational standpoint (not a religious standpoint) why people are atheists, or are you left scratching your head why so many people can't see the obvious fact that God exists or can't see whatever flaws are in atheism as an explanation?  I think I understand to some extent how some theists view things but I do think some of their beliefs have issues from a logic and rationality standpoint.  Not the least of which is the paucity of direct evidence for any god, let alone for any specific conception of it.

[scowl]

Crikey, on 01 February 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

Why don't you think this is fab and great?-
"Love God,

Love someone I've never met and who has reportedly killed hundreds of thousands of people?

Quote

love one another,

Love the child abuser across the street? I'll pass on this one too.

Quote

feed the hungry, house the homeless, clothe the destitute,

I would love free food, free housing, and free clothes if they were practical.

Quote

tend the sick,

And bill them later?

Quote

visit the prisoners,

"So, how's death row? You say you didn't mean to kill your wife and the guy she was with? That sucks. Good luck."

Quote

look after the poor"

Because they can't take care of themselves? They sound like animals.

[Zaphod222]

Crikey, on 01 February 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

If you're going to start disbelieving history books like the Bible, you'd better burn all other books too, and close down libraries..

Newsflash for you: The Bible is not a history book.

[Zaphod222]

Crikey, on 01 February 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

For the record Koran 2:136  names several prophets including Jesus and says they're all equal in rank- "
we do not make anydistinction between any of them",
Yet Koran 2:253 says some prophets ARE more equal than others-

The Koran is full of contradictions, just like the Bible.

Crikey, on 01 February 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

As for Buddhism, the inconstencies come thick and fast, for example Buddha even tells us not to listen to him-
"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense"
Buddha

Where do you see the contradiction?

[Jinxdom]

Zaphod222, on 01 February 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

No. False logic. Believing in an irrational tale is not the same as not believing in an irrational tale.

By your logic, somebody who believes that he is constantly followed by an invisible giant rabbit and Elvis lives in his attic is to be taken just as serious as all the people who do not believe they are followed by invisitable giant rabbits and Elvis lives in their attic.

Really?

No banana. Try again.

You are right but you are missing out on the illogical view of your thinking. Have you ever played madlibs? This is why I broke it down to math because the definitions of the words are pointless when it comes to the word God.

Both sides of the board who get angry are trying to prove their case through negation.

I can name a rock God and show you that is proof. You tell me that isn't God and show me that same exact thing is proof.
Problem is nobody stops and asks the question why? Seems like a case of illogical thinking.

Negation will never work to prove your case.

I am an atheist because I do not believe in deities but I can be considered a theist because I believe in a creator because a creator is one part of the definition that somebody said at one point in time. (really Ignostic when I'm feeling playful if you read posts earlier on)

The term is too vague and we don't know what it actually means so you can't argue about it on either side.

Logic cannot come from assumptions. This is why both sides are a belief and cannot be said as factual.

Your trying to prove something with something that doesn't even relate to point in question. In that situation(The one one you stated) know the variables and what parts are true and what are not. That is the basis of logic and the conclusion you drew from it was a logical one.

The debate about atheism and theism is not based on facts but opinions on what something can be called.  . Which I state again......... both sides are basically the same when you compare the two of them side by side.

So basically you proved to me is that an apple isn't an orange, when the thing we are discussing is about if the orange actually exists. Your argument doesn't fit in the context of what I am even saying.

Since neither side can prove they what they believe is actually true(Meaning they don't actually know),  that is the only point of reference to say that they are alike because that is the only thing I can prove.

All I see from you in your writing is that you don't like being compared to and found the same as a theist and too scared to do the math to see it. That is literally all you shown.

[Sean93]

Crikey, on 31 January 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

But what possible motive would anybody have for sitting down and "inventing" Jesus and Christianity?

What reason does someone have to start Islam or even Raelism or Mormonism? It's called belief and the tide of time.

Look how much Islam has grown despite Christianity being as all powerful as it is, you'd think we'd have been satisfied with Jesus but alas...
Man will continue to conflate myths and legends because we need something to keel us over 'til we die. "A bogus theory is better than no theory at all" - Most Of Mankind.

P.S, just because the bible says Jesus performs miracles isn't grounds for believing, the same goes for all holy texts. You might say "Well it contains nice things like love and compassion so how could it be for manipulation?" but last I checked, the word 'Deceit' does exist, as does 'manipulation'. I'm not saying it was used for manipulation but it's plausible, I mean politicians lie in their manifesto's all the time.Trusting someone based solely on their established goal (in god's case love) may make you less aware of their shortcomings.

[Crikey]

Liquid Gardens, on 01 February 2013 - 08:28 PM, said:

...atheism doesn't have potentially inherent contradictions or 'problems' like specific religions sometimes do, such as represented by the problem of evil.
I think I understand to some extent how some theists view things but I do think some of their beliefs have issues from a logic and rationality standpoint.  Not the least of which is the paucity of direct evidence for any god, let alone for any specific conception of it.

1- Some atheists say Jesus never existed, yet some say he did, plus there are many shades of atheist opinions in between, so atheism itself is divided and contradictory.
Incidentally, you like to keep throwing out the word "evil", what exactly are you referring to? I personally don't know of any "evil" Christians..

2- Atheists say there's no evidence of a God, perhaps they think the universe just decided to create itself!
Christianity WORKS just like it says on the tin which is why most Christians are cool, calm, unflappable, fearless and good humoured, they have The Power..
".. our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power.." (1 Thess 1:5)
"..that you may stand firm in all the will of God, mature and fully assured" (Col 4:12)

"My Christian faith is my backbone"- (said by Bear Grylls on TV and on his website)

Edited by Crikey, 02 February 2013 - 11:52 AM.

[Rlyeh]

Crikey, on 02 February 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

2- Atheists say there's no evidence of a God, perhaps they think the universe just decided to create itself!

So does science, that is why creationism was rejected. Perhaps you should think before you respond?

*snip*

Edited by Paranoid Android, 02 February 2013 - 12:07 PM.
Removed inflammatory comment