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Occum's Razor = some Crop Circles are 'real'


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#151    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:35 PM

View Postlaver, on 28 January 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

Occum's Razor and Newton's definition in respect of considering a phenomena says we must only consider factors that are TRUE
And "aliens are coming here and grafittiing in our cereal" is true?


#152    laver

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:31 PM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 28 January 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

And "aliens are coming here and grafittiing in our cereal" is true?

Your use of the term 'aliens' fails to convey the mystery of the fact that we are dealing with a phenomena which in some cases is just of unknown origin but beyond human capability


#153    bison

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:59 PM

There are a number of phenomena associated with some crop circles that do not seem to fit with the notion that they are all man-made. Prominent among these, are witness reports of circles created  in a very brief amount of time. One need not evoke the Stonehenge Julia Set example, which has been disputed by some. There are other cases of this sort.
There is also the matter of numerous reports of electronic devices malfunctioning or inexplicably being drained of power when they are taken into a crop circle.


#154    Slave2Fate

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:16 PM

View Postbison, on 28 January 2013 - 10:59 PM, said:

There are a number of phenomena associated with some crop circles that do not seem to fit with the notion that they are all man-made. Prominent among these, are witness reports of circles created  in a very brief amount of time. One need not evoke the Stonehenge Julia Set example, which has been disputed by some. There are other cases of this sort.
There is also the matter of numerous reports of electronic devices malfunctioning or inexplicably being drained of power when they are taken into a crop circle.

Yes but the number of times these things have happened compared to the total number of crop circles would relegate these incidents to mere anomalies and as such not indicative of a 'pattern' that could be used to promote a theory. Unless of course the anomalous nature of these incidents could be accounted for.

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#155    seeder

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:32 PM

I quite like this one to be honest!

Attached File  crop_circles.jpg   26.64K   2 downloads

But I really dont think its aliens...

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#156    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 12:29 AM

View Postlaver, on 28 January 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

Your use of the term 'aliens' fails to convey the mystery of the fact that we are dealing with a phenomena which in some cases is just of unknown origin but beyond human capability
Well "unknown intelligences" covers a multitude of sins - and happy includes the group upon whom I lay blame, human hoaxers.
Aliens serves to encompass the group to which you ascribe agency - non-human intelligences. Six letters as opposed to 21 and a symbol. Brevity isn't a sin I'm usually guilty of, but laziness is.


#157    bison

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 03:12 AM

View PostSlave2Fate, on 28 January 2013 - 11:16 PM, said:

Yes but the number of times these things have happened compared to the total number of crop circles would relegate these incidents to mere anomalies and as such not indicative of a 'pattern' that could be used to promote a theory. Unless of course the anomalous nature of these incidents could be accounted for.
It's not really clear to me how unusual it is for some anomalistic phenomenon to be associated with a crop circle. It might not be all that uncommon. At least where extremely rapid formation of a clearly artificial pattern is involved, so rapid that any human action is ruled out, some other form of intelligence appears to be indicated. If this is so in even one crop circle, it is not unreasonable that it may well be so in many. The creation of most crop circles is apparently not observed.


#158    Likely Guy

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 03:30 AM

View Postbison, on 29 January 2013 - 03:12 AM, said:

It's not really clear to me how unusual it is for some anomalistic phenomenon to be associated with a crop circle. It might not be all that uncommon. At least where extremely rapid formation of a clearly artificial pattern is involved, so rapid that any human action is ruled out, some other form of intelligence appears to be indicated. If this is so in even one crop circle, it is not unreasonable that it may well be so in many. The creation of most crop circles is apparently not observed.

Are there examples of these rapid formations that you can provide? A 'rapid formation' in a few minutes, I'd be impressed with. An overnight 'rapid formation', not so much.


#159    psyche101

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 06:46 AM

View Postlaver, on 18 January 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:

Agnostic is probably the only sensibile position with our present level of knowledge, but that level of knowledge is growing all the time as new discoveries are made. One major problem with some religions is that they promise reward in the 'afterlife' if people do what they are told in this life. As we see from history and even today this can be used to get people to carry out acts that we could only class as inhumane and evil. It also tends to create a 'them' and 'us' attitude which divides humanity instead of trying to bring it together, the tale of the Good Samaritan, if it was indeed told by Jesus, is an example of how your neighbour should be treated whether they are part of your group or not. As I am sure you are aware the dispute between the southern kingdom of Judah and the northern Samaria was a major issue at the time of Christ but Samaritans feature in some very important bible events.

The afterlife far outdates any text. Funeral rituals date back to Neanderthal man. These final resting places were adorned with foods and materials for use in the afterlife. Common theme too, I guess nobody is keen to head to this glorious afterlife that some of us convince ourselves exists. It's a nice thought, but reality is closer. And this is across species too, most certainly not unique to man, as such, the Gods you feel Sumer referred to I think just might of had some Gods of their own.

View Postlaver, on 18 January 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:

Since we now know that the creation story of the bible OT is deeply flawed we have to consider where it came from and the origins seem often to be Sumer a fact that was obviously covered up until recent times. The Sumerians had a very different view of deities, which were both male and female, and it was we hear the Goddess who created human kind and the way this was done does sound like a bit of genetic manipulation. Genetic studies today seem to show that our origins are from just a very few individuals. Who were these deities who the Sumerian creation story tell us created humans? Where did they come from with maybe a knowledge of genetics?
The Sumerians tell us they 'came down' and we have to consider if they were not of this Earth, do we not?

Hang on, you are saying the Bible was not interpreted correctly, and the original stories are genuine? Because the Deities had 2 sexes?

People can make a pork chop sound like it was genetically manipulated, Fact is we are not. We have along history, and all of our DNA comes "Out Of Africa". Globals random testing has been done to support this very fact. Genetic manipulation would show up in fossil record, it does not.

Nobody "created" humans. It was a long arduous journey, roughly beginning with Lucy, Australopithecus. We do not have to guess between the Bible and Sumer, wer have bones, transitional fossils and DNA. That is enough to explain us. No Deities, nor Aliens required.

View Postlaver, on 18 January 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:

This is relevant to the crop circle issue because if we accept that we MAY have been visited in the distant past we COULD be getting messages from an extraterrestrial source and there are indications that all crop designs are not of human design and construction. Time for an open mind maybe?

Open mind? How about considering the fossil record, and base explanations that fit into what we have to guide us, like historical record? WHy guess and make stuff up when nature left us a record, all we have to do is learn how to read it, as we slowly are?

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#160    laver

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 07:35 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 29 January 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

The afterlife far outdates any text. Funeral rituals date back to Neanderthal man. These final resting places were adorned with foods and materials for use in the afterlife. Common theme too, I guess nobody is keen to head to this glorious afterlife that some of us convince ourselves exists. It's a nice thought, but reality is closer. And this is across species too, most certainly not unique to man, as such, the Gods you feel Sumer referred to I think just might of had some Gods of their own.



Hang on, you are saying the Bible was not interpreted correctly, and the original stories are genuine? Because the Deities had 2 sexes?

People can make a pork chop sound like it was genetically manipulated, Fact is we are not. We have along history, and all of our DNA comes "Out Of Africa". Globals random testing has been done to support this very fact. Genetic manipulation would show up in fossil record, it does not.

Nobody "created" humans. It was a long arduous journey, roughly beginning with Lucy, Australopithecus. We do not have to guess between the Bible and Sumer, wer have bones, transitional fossils and DNA. That is enough to explain us. No Deities, nor Aliens required.



Open mind? How about considering the fossil record, and base explanations that fit into what we have to guide us, like historical record? WHy guess and make stuff up when nature left us a record, all we have to do is learn how to read it, as we slowly are?

The belief in a possible afterlife is rather different from a belief that if we follow certain dogmas it will affect that possible afterlife. There are many unkowns about how modern man started and developed but now that the biblical accounts have been shown to be stories based on earlier myths and legends it is worthwhile looking at those myths and legends to see if they offer any clues. External influence is a common factor which has to be considered.


#161    psyche101

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 08:52 AM

View Postlaver, on 29 January 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

The belief in a possible afterlife is rather different from a belief that if we follow certain dogmas it will affect that possible afterlife. There are many unkowns about how modern man started and developed but now that the biblical accounts have been shown to be stories based on earlier myths and legends it is worthwhile looking at those myths and legends to see if they offer any clues. External influence is a common factor which has to be considered.

I do not think it is different, I think some realised that valuable things can be a means of controlling some people. Immortality has been sought as long as man has been able to understand the concept. Be it a fountain of youth pf a God, it's the same means to an end. Some people used immortality to direct people, which I feel no doubt evolved into religion.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#162    laver

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 12:29 PM

View Postpsyche101, on 29 January 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

I do not think it is different, I think some realised that valuable things can be a means of controlling some people. Immortality has been sought as long as man has been able to understand the concept. Be it a fountain of youth pf a God, it's the same means to an end. Some people used immortality to direct people, which I feel no doubt evolved into religion.

It is the carrot and the stick means of control that is the problem; so in our hopefully enlightened age we will not need to threaten others, including our children, with dire consequences if they do not conform to dogma nor promise them afterlife benefits if they do; neither can be substantiated.


#163    bison

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 10:05 PM

View PostLikely Guy, on 29 January 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

Are there examples of these rapid formations that you can provide? A 'rapid formation' in a few minutes, I'd be impressed with. An overnight 'rapid formation', not so much.
  Tried several times to provide links to examples of very rapidly formed crop circles. Checked and rechecked addresses, which are valid. This site does not seem to be accepting links from me today.

Edited by bison, 29 January 2013 - 10:58 PM.


#164    psyche101

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 03:24 AM

View Postlaver, on 29 January 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

It is the carrot and the stick means of control that is the problem; so in our hopefully enlightened age we will not need to threaten others, including our children, with dire consequences if they do not conform to dogma nor promise them afterlife benefits if they do; neither can be substantiated.

The West has been moving in this direction for several hundred years, beginning with Thirty Years war. That challenged religion and put democracy in place as a ruling entity. Religion today noticeably is losing it's stronghold. People like Dawkins would have been burned at the stake 100 years ago. It is a slow process, but eventual.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#165    bison

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 02:49 PM

View Postbison, on 29 January 2013 - 10:05 PM, said:

Tried several times to provide links to examples of very rapidly formed crop circles. Checked and rechecked addresses, which are valid. This site does not seem to be accepting links from me today.
Follow up on my quoted post, above. Using the search term: 'eyewitness crop circles' at Google brings up a number of instances where witnesses reported the formation of crop circle in an anomalous manner, and in too brief a time to admit of a human cause.





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