403 replies to this topic

[shadowhive]

Cassea, on 14 December 2012 - 10:44 PM, said:

You don't get to just continue to tell us what we really. Think and Believe.  That is arrogant and wrong.

And yet you get to say what everyone in the church of england should think and believe. Somehow that is not arrogant and wrong

[Cassea]

shadowhive, on 14 December 2012 - 10:45 PM, said:

And yet you get to say what everyone in the church of england should think and believe. Somehow that is not arrogant and wrong

What kind of utter foolishness is this statement.  I am not saying what they should.  I'm observing what they say they do.  You keep making silly points.  This is because you realize that your argument is full of holes.

Edited by Cassea, 14 December 2012 - 10:49 PM.

[Mr Right Wing]

shadowhive, on 14 December 2012 - 10:34 PM, said:

Religion does't deserve to be counted with the others, since it's spent a great deal of time fighting to make sure ethnic, woman's and gay rights were low.

I think you need to get down off your high horse.

Thankfully we live in a Democracy so you'll never get your chance to punish religion.

[shadowhive]

Cassea, on 14 December 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

What kind of utter foolishness is this statement.  I am not saying what they should.  I'm observing what they say they do.  You keep making silly points.  This is because you realize that your argument is full of holes.

I, too, observe what they do. I have observed that what they say they do changes with time. Only now I'm told, by you, that nope, change for them is a myth.

[shadowhive]

Mr Right Wing, on 14 December 2012 - 10:51 PM, said:

I think you need to get down off your high horse.

Thankfully we live in a Democracy so you'll never get your chance to punish religion.

I'm not on a high horse. Just stating facts.

A few examples. The church was among the last to give up slaves and used the bible as an excuse to keep them. The church fought against interacial marriage. The church has had long standing issues with women. This topic shows it still has issues with gay people.

Putting religion with those groups is like locking a bunch of sheep in a pen and tossing a wolf in with them.

How is giving religion the same rights it has now, just putting them seperate from other people's rights punishment exactly? Personally I just want to keep the wolf away from the sheep.

Edited by shadowhive, 14 December 2012 - 10:58 PM.

[Cassea]

shadowhive, on 14 December 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

I, too, observe what they do. I have observed that what they say they do changes with time. Only now I'm told, by you, that nope, change for them is a myth.

This is what I think they call. Moving the goal posts.  You have completely changed your discussion.  Because you realize that were not making sense.  You personally wanting them to change over time.  You say you don't want immediate change anyway.  You recognize that futility.  If so, you should have no issue with the OP.  The entire line of discussion has been filled. With your double speak.  At least admit that it makes no sense for you to feel outraged.  That they want to protect themselves. From being forced to perform gay weddings.

[Mr Right Wing]

shadowhive, on 14 December 2012 - 10:54 PM, said:

I'm not on a high horse. Just stating facts.

A few examples. The church was among the last to give up slaves and used the bible as an excuse to keep them. The church fought against interacial marriage. The church has had long standing issues with women. This topic shows it still has issues with gay people.

Putting religion with those groups is like locking a bunch of sheep in a pen and tossing a wolf in with them.

How is giving religion the same rights it has now, just putting them seperate from other people's rights punishment exactly? Personally I just want to keep the wolf away from the sheep.

Why are all your anti-Christain arguments historical?

[Mr Right Wing]

Cassea, on 14 December 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

This is what I think they call. Moving the goal posts.  You have completely changed your discussion.  Because you realize that were not making sense.  You personally wanting them to change over time.  You say you don't want immediate change anyway.  You recognize that futility.  If so, you should have no issue with the OP.  The entire line of discussion has been filled. With your double speak.  At least admit that it makes no sense for you to feel outraged.  That they want to protect themselves. From being forced to perform gay weddings.

I too have noticed this.

If the guy is so desperate to wear a frock theres plenty of womens clothing shops about lol

[shadowhive]

Cassea, on 14 December 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

This is what I think they call. Moving the goal posts.  You have completely changed your discussion.  Because you realize that were not making sense.  You personally wanting them to change over time.  You say you don't want immediate change anyway.  You recognize that futility.  If so, you should have no issue with the OP.  The entire line of discussion has been filled. With your double speak.  At least admit that it makes no sense for you to feel outraged.  That they want to protect themselves. From being forced to perform gay weddings.

What I want: Religions to change over time.
What I dont want: To force them to change
What you think I want: To force them to change right now.
What I see happening: Change possible in the future.

Right. To the OP I will bullet point this, which is the timeline for the law.

1: The government announces its looking into introducing same sex civil marriage. It says that NO church will be forced to do it. In fact, no church will be allowed to either.
2: The catholic and church of England (and, yes, Jews and Muslims) imidiately say that no same sex marriage should be allowed: even civil ones.
3: Smaller, more liberal religious organisations make their voice heard. They want to perform religious same sex marriages.
4: The government confirms it's looking into HOW not IF it will be introducing same sex amrriage. It also makes it clear that no church will be forced into doing it.
5: The catholic church and church of england complain again. They still don't want ANY same sex marriage. They also say they'll be forced, even though the government has said they won't be.
6:  The government makes this announcemet, the one in the op. It confirms that they'll bring in same sex civil marriage, please an opt in for every religion bar the church of england (where instead, it will  be banned) .

Every step of the way, the government have said that the church won't be forced to do a thing. Every time they have (until now) the church have ignored that.

Like I have said, they have already got protections in place. They do not have to perform hetrosexual weddings if they don't agree with it. Personally, the law they had to cover that was more than adequete to protect them. After all, it's been adequte enough to protect them from being sued by hetrosexuals (when have you heard of a hetrosexual suing the church to get married and winning?) so why do they need the quadruple lock that they do now? Personally it all just seems redundant. I also think that the church of england being banned outright (without the option to opt in like everyone else) is heavy handed and wrong.

[SpiritWriter]

Cassea, on 14 December 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

That is a more liberal interpretation of Christianity.  You don't get to dictate what it means to be Christian.  It's not just what Jesus said. It is also what God said.   I am probably more liberal.  But I don't deny the right of those who are more conservative.  To believe what they do.  And to do otherwise is bigoted and disrespectful.  No matter how much you try to hide behind.  Self righteousness.

With all due respect my Christian sister if you aren't gay you don't know what it means to be gay. Check out some of the stories of gay Christians trying to get exorcisms, marrying the opposite sex, fighting against their own sexuality in the name of god.. The results aren't good, they either go back to being gay, become suicidal or are living a lie. Or is Gay the name of a devil that posesses some. You have been taught that, but everything you've been taught is not correct. Do you believe in slavery? The bible makes it ok to own slaves when conceived in a certain perspective.

God made gay people, and believe it or not he made them gay. You just can't understand this because it is outside of your realm of vision.

That is not to say that all homosexually acting/participating people are gay, there are a percent that are lost, just like the rest of us are lost in certain ways...

Christianity IS defined by the believer, and that is why there are different sects and divisions within the church, you cannot expect all Christians to be trapped in your world... Religion does change and many churches and preachers are coming to terms with the fact that people are naturally gay.... You can no longer say that it is against christianity to be gay, well you can say it, but not everyone will take you seriously. The rejection of gay ppl turned many against god, that is the fault of the church and what they perpetrate, this is changing whether you like it or not.

much love in Christ

Edited by SpiritWriter, 14 December 2012 - 11:20 PM.

[shadowhive]

Mr Right Wing, on 14 December 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

Why are all your anti-Christain arguments historical?

Out of those I bought up, only one is historical. Interacial marriage hasn't been legal for a long time. Gay rights haven't been around for less. Women's rights are the oldest of the three, but still fairly young. All of those are under a century old as a serious movement. All three were impeded before that time (and in some cases, still are) by religion because 'the bible says so'.

[Cassea]

It seems pretty obvious to me.  That the concern about gay marriage.  In the Church.  Is that they can be sued for refusing to perform.  A gay wedding.  So they want to have a protection built into the law.   How this has you twisted with rage?  I do not know.  What they did is a legitimate move.  They protected themselves. They protected their faith.  You don't believe in God. You wouldn't go to their church. To get married anyway.  So why does this even concern you?  Other churches can opt in.  So it's not the law of the land.  This is a responsible move.  There's no reason to be upset with it at all.

[Cassea]

SpiritWriter, on 14 December 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

With all due respect my Christian sister if you aren't gay you don't know what it means to be gay. Check out some of the stories of gay Christians trying to get exorcisms, marrying the opposite sex, fighting against their own sexuality in the name of god.. The results aren't good, they either go back to being gay, become suicidal or are living a lie. Gay the name of a devil that posesses some. You have been taught that, but everything you've been taught is not correct. Do you believe in slavery? The bible makes it ok to own slaves....

God made gay people, and believe it or not he made them gay. You just can't understand this because it is outside of your realm of vision.

Christianity IS defined by the believer, and that is why there are different sects and divisions within the church, you cannot expect all Christians to be trapped in your world... Religion does change and many churches and preachers are coming to terms with the fact that people are naturally gay.... You can no longer say that it is against christianity to be gay, well you can say it, but not everyone will take you seriously. The rejection of gay ppl turned many against god, that is the fault of the church and what they perpetrate, this is changing whether you like it or not.

much love in Christ

This is a debate on homosexuality.  I do not disagree with you.  But the OP is about The Church of England, The Church of Wales and.  By extension the Catholic Church not being forced to perform gay weddings.  Please notice that a discussion about.  Homosexuality.  Is not the same thing as a discussion about performing. Gay Weddings in a church. They are very different topics.

Peace to you too my Christian sister.

[shadowhive]

Cassea, on 14 December 2012 - 11:18 PM, said:

It seems pretty obvious to me.  That the concern about gay marriage.  In the Church.  Is that they can be sued for refusing to perform.  A gay wedding.  So they want to have a protection built into the law.   How this has you twisted with rage?  I do not know.  What they did is a legitimate move.  They protected themselves. They protected their faith.  You don't believe in God. You wouldn't go to their church. To get married anyway.  So why does this even concern you?  Other churches can opt in.  So it's not the law of the land.  This is a responsible move.  There's no reason to be upset with it at all.

It seems pretty obvious to me that they couldn't be sued from the get go, since they can't be sued for not marrying any straight couple.  They didn't need the extra protection for something they already have.

The church is effectively being like someone on a motorbike. They are already wearing the helmet for protection, yet for some reason they want a second helmet on top of it. they already have the first, which gives them all the protection that they require, yet they still want the second, even though it's obviously unecessary.

What get's me most angry, though, is that when same sex marriage laws were first mentioned they wanted NO ONE to be able to perform same sex marriage. This was not out of protection or fear of getting forced. That made me very upset and angry, that they thought they could stop anyone from getting married just to get their way.

Edited by shadowhive, 14 December 2012 - 11:25 PM.

[Mr Right Wing]

SpiritWriter, on 14 December 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

With all due respect my Christian sister if you aren't gay you don't know what it means to be gay. Check out some of the stories of gay Christians trying to get exorcisms, marrying the opposite sex, fighting against their own sexuality in the name of god.. The results aren't good, they either go back to being gay, become suicidal or are living a lie. Gay the name of a devil that posesses some. You have been taught that, but everything you've been taught is not correct. Do you believe in slavery? The bible makes it ok to own slaves....

God made gay people, and believe it or not he made them gay. You just can't understand this because it is outside of your realm of vision.

Christianity IS defined by the believer, and that is why there are different sects and divisions within the church, you cannot expect all Christians to be trapped in your world... Religion does change and many churches and preachers are coming to terms with the fact that people are naturally gay.... You can no longer say that it is against christianity to be gay, well you can say it, but not everyone will take you seriously. The rejection of gay ppl turned many against god, that is the fault of the church and what they perpetrate, this is changing whether you like it or not.

much love in Christ

God didnt make people gay they decided they wanted to be.