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#1    Bogeyman

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Posted 14 December 2004 - 08:55 AM

I was watching a programme on unexplained mysteries last night called "the critical eye".In the programme the afterlife was argued for and against ....in the against corner was a guy called Paul Kurtz,i‘d never heard of him before and i was just wondering what the view on him is ?.He says there is no scientific proof of an afterlife and when we die thats it...!!!EVP was not mentioned in the programme and i was just wondering what this guys view on it is ....he has written a shedload of books so i presume he must have an opinion on it...!
I thought the program was a bit weak on the proof side and that there were much better cases they could have used to put forward the case for.....
Thanks



#2    Lonecat

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  • Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.
    Aldous Huxley

Posted 14 December 2004 - 10:33 AM

Hi there Bogeyman,

          We must remember that TV programmes are often biased in favour of one or other of the "for" and "against" camps.   Beware of any programme, or even argument which purports to "prove" things one way or another.  I say again what I have said before on this and other website Fora: it is not the business of science to "Prove" a hypothesis but to check it against observed facts and then reject it or accept it according to the results.   Even then, in the light of further evidence and modification to that hypothesis, after it has been rejected it can be adopted anew or, after its acceptance, it can later be rejected.   All this depends on continued research into that particular field.   Continued research means not accepting one TV programme as providing the final and definitive answer.   We must take all hypotheses and arguments into account and, on the basis of personal experience and knowledge gained from investigation, form our own opinions.    Arguments which start of with: "Scientists say..." or "It has been proven..." are of no use at all.   Which scientists say what?   Is what they said valid?   These are questions that must be asked and answered.   My recommendation is, if you are truly interested in the subject of an "Afterlife", that you do your own research and then compare that with other people's findings and then form your own opinion.

     I have one or two links here which I think will be of interest to you and to other members of this forum.   They are for websites that vary in their approach, but could lead you on to further study.    Beware of "fanatical" believers who accept everything they want to believe at face value and also "fanatical" debunkers who will not accept things they do not want to accept.   Methinks they do protest too much.    Best wishes to all from Lonecat

An introduction to Victor Zammit's book

http://www.worlditc.org/d_03_zammit_book_excerpt.htm  

"A Lawyer Presents the case for the Afterlife"
................................................................

Other important websites which serve as an introduction to information on the "Afterlife" are  the following.  It is all very scientifically orientated and  not in any way mystical.

http://www.geocities.com/dannywilde1969/mysterydisguise.html  


http://www.worlditc.org/

On this second one you can also hear some ITC recordings.
.............................................................................................
http://www.colinsmythe.co.uk/authors/covers/voices.htm

This is a very useful booklist on the subject.
...............................................................................................
Now here is a fascinating updated page on Victor Zammit's website about what a lot of other famous people think about the afterlife.

http://www.victorzammit.com/index.html

Esta página contiene una version en Español y en otros idiomas tambien.
......................................................................................................

Victor Zammit on ITC (Instrumental Transcommunication)http://www.survivala...other/itc.htm  

............................................................................................

Presentations with luminator
by Mark Macy    http://www.worlditc.org/h_05_luminator_results_2004.htm

............................................................................

SCIENTIFIC SUPPORT FOR EVIDENCE BASED MEDIUMSHIP, LIFE AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH AND AFTER DEATH COMMUNICATION

http://survivalscience.50megs.com/
.....................................................................................
Electronic Voice Phenomena

EVP

There Is No Death

http://members.tripod.com/cryskernan/elect...e_phenomena.htm


http://spiritkeep.net/ghosts/aag/aaevpint.html

....................................................................................

Welcome
to

http://www.tonbandstimmen.de/index_e.htm

.........................................................................................................
And if you like hard science, go to this....



http://www.physics.helsinki.fi/~matpitka/






































"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."   — Aldous Huxley (1894—1963).

Thought is All.
All is Thought.

#3    Bogeyman

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Posted 14 December 2004 - 11:02 AM

Hey Lonecat
Thanks for the detailed answer……..All those sites you have given me I have been into a few times.On world itc I am a regular contributor to the forum and have been in contact with the site owners several times…Mark and Rolf.I am also in regular e-mail contact with Erland Babcock who has been researching this subject for over 30 years.If you look at any of the threads here regarding EVP/ITC you’ll notice that I’ve put my tuppence worth in on all of them.
As a matter of fact before answering you I just had a say about it on richcats post.
The reason I mentioned in my post that this guy didn’t mention anything about evp is because I have got so much into the subject and would have been interested in how he would try to de-bunk it.
This guy seems to have a shedload of books bebunking anything that moves.I have to say also that seeing him interviewed …he comes across as a very cold fish (he would argue that this doesn’t make him wrong).
My own personal view on EVP/ITC is that all the researchers seem to be 100% honest and genuine and all seem to be motivated by reasons other than money from what I can see.Nevertheless I am still interested to hear what the debunkers say about it as maybe there are things I haven’t thought of that would prove it is not contact with the afterlife….as it stands they would all have to be lying through their teeth …as the voices are definitely there.One disappointing thing though is that all the very best researchers are dead and their work doesn’t seem to be repeatable….Friedrich Jurgensen,Konstantin Raudive,Schreiber,George Meek…etc etc.
Whats your own view on this ?

Edited by Bogeyman, 14 December 2004 - 11:11 AM.


#4    Bogeyman

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Posted 14 December 2004 - 11:09 AM

Lonecat
What exactly should i be reading on this site http://www.physics.helsinki.fi/~matpitka/      ?
It all seem a bit technical for me......kinda flew over my head there.
Which section should i read and whats the theory being put forward.
Thanks


#5    Lonecat

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Posted 17 December 2004 - 12:06 PM

Lonecat here again LOL ! LOL! Lolly lol!

   Sorry about that, Bogeyman.   I copied and pasted the whole block of links which I keep on file.   That link was one I found by chance and kept it as I am very much interested in any relation between Quantum physics and the so-called "paranormal".   I agree with you and admit that this link is way above my head but I made a  copy of it once and manipulated it by inserting words which gave it the impression of having finally made the breakthrough and proven the existnce of ghosts and so on.   I did it merely as a joke to see how a debunker friend of mine would react to it.    I certainly did  NOT publish it to all the world as there is enough hoaxing going on already.   I just forgot to erase the original, valid though obscure text from my file.   Sorry about that.   If I can find a copy of what I did I'll send it to you as a private message.   I wouldn't want to earn a reputation of spreading falsehood, now would I?   I'm glad that you got some use out of the links, probably more than I did as I have not actually met any of these people you speak of.   However, I have had some correspondence with Mr. Victor Zammit and I cannot recommend his online book highly enough.   You can download it directly from the site.   For the benefit of anyone else who is reading this you can gain access to it through Google.  Just type in : Victor Zammit The Book.  Merry Christmas to all,     Lonecat  santa.gif

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."   — Aldous Huxley (1894—1963).

Thought is All.
All is Thought.




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