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'Reasonable force' or 'murder'?

burglars shot reasonable force murder

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#46    OverSword

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:27 PM

View PostQuiteContrary, on 26 November 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

I'm a firm believer in warning shots and scaring the living sh* out of someone with everything you got.
It sounds like he had  opportunity for a warning shot. Yet when the kid laughed at his his jammed gun and didn't run what did he think? This guy is wacked? and shot him.

However, shooting a second time in the face because the kid laughed at you, is not even close to protecting your home. But it's like when cops beat up suspects after a chase. It's wrong but it happens, there is a psychological reason for it, and no it is not "because they are racist or bullies or love to beat up people".
Wrong!  Warning shots are stupid.  If you knew thing one about self defense you would know better.  If you pull a gun shoot to hit the target.  A warning shot gives them time to shoot back and puts you at unescessary risk.

That being said this guy murdered that girl and should be punished.  He went too far.  You don't put a person "out of thier misery" like you would a wounded animal.  You call 911 and get an ambulance over ASAP.

It is rather pathetic how the article paints these two criminals who are ultimately responsible for thier own deaths because it was thier own actions which led to the shootings.


#47    Rafterman

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:40 PM

He has the right to defend himself and his property.

I agree, however, that he took it too far once they were incapacitated.  And, by not calling law enforcement immediately, committed a felony.  He should be prosecuted.

There are countless books, videos, and workshops that have been developed to instruct law abiding gun owners in how to handle themselves in these situations.

I do find it ironic in these types of instances that the perpetrators are always, role models, star students, great kids, etc.  No they weren't.  They were criminals.

Edited by Rafterman, 28 November 2012 - 04:45 PM.

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#48    pallidin

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:56 PM

Perhaps I've missed it, but it there a current media link on this case.
Realizing that the police might be keeping some details to theirself's.


#49    ouija ouija

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 06:50 PM

View Postpallidin, on 28 November 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

Perhaps I've missed it, but it there a current media link on this case.
Realizing that the police might be keeping some details to theirself's.

I couldn't find anything new ..... Smith has been charged with second degree murder.

I've had some more thoughts about this sad event: Smith has no criminal history but the teens have a list of crimes pending investigation, including robbing a teacher the night before this event! Plus, the girl had burgled her own sister's house(to steal prescription drugs?) ..... her sister said she(the dead teen) had had treatment for drug abuse in the past. These two were obviously just going to go on committing crimes as long as they could get away with them ..... maybe getting bolder and violent as time went by. Smith has done his community a favour.

Maybe Smith thought there were more intruders than just the two? Perhaps there was no other way out of the basement other than up the stairs that the teens had come down? How frightening would that be? I'm not surprised he felt he had to 'finish them off' ..... he didn't know how many others he might still have to face.

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#50    QuiteContrary

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 08:06 PM

View PostOverSword, on 28 November 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

Wrong!  Warning shots are stupid.  If you knew thing one about self defense you would know better.  If you pull a gun shoot to hit the target.  A warning shot gives them time to shoot back and puts you at unescessary risk.

That being said this guy murdered that girl and should be punished.  He went too far.  You don't put a person "out of thier misery" like you would a wounded animal.  You call 911 and get an ambulance over ASAP.

It is rather pathetic how the article paints these two criminals who are ultimately responsible for thier own deaths because it was thier own actions which led to the shootings.

Where did I ever say this guy was right shooting her in the face? It was a sick move. All I said is there is a psychological reason for excessive force, but I didn't know if it was true in his case. But I said it was still wrong, more than once.

If warning shots are stupid where did the term come from? And why do people live to tell about using them?

This guy even had several warning break-ins.

Every situation is different. There are thousands of scenarios. Since when is every perp even armed with a gun?

Would it have worked here? Were the teens armed with guns?

Heck the ones breaking into where I was left because I just told them I had a gun. No shots, and they never saw the gun I actually did not have.

And under your logic a gun shot to the perp is the only ever effective means of defense. And that is false.

What about owning mace? Or knowing self-defense moves? Or when the perp hears the sirens of the cops you called?

If these have been used effectively in situations, then so could a warning shot be used.

And if warning shots are pointless Or "stupid" as you call them, and will result in harm to you, then so are all nonlethal means of defense: alarm system, calling 911, a dog, self defense knowledge, mace, locking yourself in a bathroom, calling for help, exiting the building, etc,

Edited by QuiteContrary, 28 November 2012 - 08:22 PM.


#51    Rafterman

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 08:06 PM

Here's a less colorful report from yesterday:

http://www.startribu...61.html?refer=y

Again, he had a right to defend himself and his property - even to use deadly force.  But what he did crossed the line.

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#52    ouija ouija

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 08:27 PM

An odd thing I read in one of the reports was that a member of staff from the college/school they attended, made the identification of the bodies ...... why didn't a family member do that? Actually, was there any mention of parents in any of the articles? I don't think there was.

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#53    OverSword

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 08:40 PM

View PostQuiteContrary, on 28 November 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

Where did I ever say this guy was right shooting her in the face? It was a sick move. All I said is there is a psychological reason for excessive force, but I didn't know if it was true in his case. But I said it was still wrong, more than once.

If warning shots are stupid where did the term come from? And why do people live to tell about using them?

This guy even had several warning break-ins.

Every situation is different. There are thousands of scenarios. Since when is every perp even armed with a gun?

Would it have worked here? Were the teens armed with guns?

Heck the ones breaking into where I was left because I just told them I had a gun. No shots, and they never saw the gun I actually did not have.

And under your logic a gun shot to the perp is the only ever effective means of defense. And that is false.

What about owning mace? Or knowing self-defense moves? Or when the perp hears the sirens of the cops you called?

If these have been used effectively in situations, then so could a warning shot be used.

And if warning shots are pointless Or "stupid" as you call them, and will result in harm to you, then so are all nonlethal means of defense: alarm system, calling 911, a dog, self defense knowledge, mace, locking yourself in a bathroom, calling for help, exiting the building, etc,
My point is if you are not a trained professional, who has been schooled to remain as calm as is possible in stressful situations, and you pull a gun, pointing it and not firing can get you shot. firing a warning shot in hopes of intimidating someone can get you shot.  My uncle, a police officer stresses if you ever feel the need to pull your gun to defend youself shoot to kill. do not point, do not threaten, shoot to kill.  If you do not intend to shoot someone you should never ever pull a gun out.  The part about the warning shot was the only part I was crticizing you about, I totaly agree with you that he went to far with the kill shot as you can see in my original post.  But it really can't be stressed enough, taking a warning shot is just a very bad idea.  The police don't take warning shots that is hollywood BS.


#54    DieChecker

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 09:31 PM

View Postouija ouija, on 28 November 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

An odd thing I read in one of the reports was that a member of staff from the college/school they attended, made the identification of the bodies ...... why didn't a family member do that? Actually, was there any mention of parents in any of the articles? I don't think there was.
Probably for the same reasons they never taught their kids Right from Wrong. Too busy, too stoned, too absent, too in prison....

I'd blame the parents too, if I did not know from experience that kids can do stupid stuff. It does seem that parents are less responsible these days, but I think that has been said every generation. I think in more Urban areas it has become easy to toss your kids into the education system and expect the schools to teach wrong from right. But schools/teachers don't really do that... Other kids at school do. And what they teach each other is Right and Wrong is not always what Everyone Else thinks is Right or Wrong.

Edited by DieChecker, 28 November 2012 - 09:32 PM.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#55    Rafterman

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 09:52 PM

View PostOverSword, on 28 November 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

My point is if you are not a trained professional, who has been schooled to remain as calm as is possible in stressful situations, and you pull a gun, pointing it and not firing can get you shot. firing a warning shot in hopes of intimidating someone can get you shot.  My uncle, a police officer stresses if you ever feel the need to pull your gun to defend youself shoot to kill. do not point, do not threaten, shoot to kill.  If you do not intend to shoot someone you should never ever pull a gun out.  The part about the warning shot was the only part I was crticizing you about, I totaly agree with you that he went to far with the kill shot as you can see in my original post.  But it really can't be stressed enough, taking a warning shot is just a very bad idea.  The police don't take warning shots that is hollywood BS.

Not to mention, if you fire a warning shot inside, you really mess up your ceiling or the finish on your floors.

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#56    Myles

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:16 PM

When I was 12, there was a pretty girl who lived down the street.   One night my brother and I were outside her first floor window talking with her.   Her dad heard a couple people outside and stepped out on the porch and fired a warning shot.   We ran like hell and never did that again.    Warning shots are not always stupid.  It depends on the situation.


#57    aztek

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:24 PM

View PostQuiteContrary, on 28 November 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

What about owning mace? Or knowing self-defense moves? Or when the perp hears the sirens of the cops you called?


lol, you don't use mace inside, try it , you'll see why. moves?? lol, yea good luck, next time high on drugs crackhead (that don't feel pain, have no fear, and determined to get something, to sell and get drugs)  brakes into your house, you use your moves than tell us how it went. as for police siren, lol, you wont hear them, and neither will he\she, you'll be dead on the floor, or dying, and they will be gone, looking to get their dope.

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#58    DieChecker

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:31 PM

I think firing a warning shot is a very good idea. Almost anyone that thinks they are being shot at, regardless of if they have a gun or not, is going to first attempt to run. Only people with military/police/gang/hardcorecriminal training or experince is going to hold their ground and shoot back. And probably few of them, if they are smart. No one wants to get killed and so almost everyone will run first.

Looked it up once and there are like a million home invasions stopped each year by personnally owned firearms. Just yelling out a threat that you have a gun is usually enough to get some to flee your home. The numbers of people who will charge ahead after being shot at or told there are homeowners there with guns is very, very small in my opinon.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#59    DieChecker

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:35 PM

View PostQuiteContrary, on 28 November 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

Or knowing self-defense moves?
I know lots of people who study Tai-Kwan-Do and are completely helpless. My wife's youngest sister and her friend (Both 14 year old girls) were telling me that it was completely safe for both of them to wander around town late at night because both knew some Tai-Kwan-Do, and one was a black belt. Being a 180 pound 5'9" man, I said, "Oh yeah?" and proceeded, with no training in martial arts at all, to hold both of them down at once and basically slap them around at will.

Knowing martial arts does not protect you unless you are EXTREMELY GOOD at it.

Edited by DieChecker, 28 November 2012 - 10:35 PM.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#60    QuiteContrary

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:53 PM

View Postaztek, on 28 November 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

lol, you don't use mace inside, try it , you'll see why. moves?? lol, yea good luck, next time high on drugs crackhead (that don't feel pain, have no fear, and determined to get something, to sell and get drugs)  brakes into your house, you use your moves than tell us how it went. as for police siren, lol, you wont hear them, and neither will he\she, you'll be dead on the floor, or dying, and they will be gone, looking to get their dope.

What? The only survivors of break-ins, assaults, have shot the perps?





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