122 replies to this topic

[DarRom]

The book of Revelation is very symbolic and prophetic.  Like the book of Daniel, it describes the end of days.  It tells us that false religion and human governments will be destroyed.  God's word gives the happy assurance that only wicked opposers of God will be destroyed. There will be survivors.  Rev. 7:9,10, 14 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.  And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.” So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

These survivors will live on earth forever: Ps. 37:27, 29, 34 Turn away from what is bad and do what is good, And so reside to time indefinite. The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it. Hope in Jehovah and keep his way, And he will exalt you to take possession of the earth. When the wicked ones are cut off, you will see [it].

What God's Kingdom with his son, Jesus Christ, ruling as king for 1000 years will do for mankind: Rev. 21:4  And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” Is. 65:22, 25  They will not build and someone else have occupancy; they will not plant and someone else do the eating. For like the days of a tree will the days of my people be; and the work of their own hands my chosen ones will use to the full. The wolf and the lamb themselves will feed as one, and the lion will eat straw just like the bull; and as for the serpent, his food will be dust. They will do no harm nor cause any ruin in all my holy mountain,” Jehovah has said.

[braveone2u]

Hi Bluefinger,

Was John of Patmos near death when he wrote the "Book of Revelation"? Do you know his backstory, not just online info?

Thanks in advance!

[Bluefinger]

Ogbin, on 22 January 2013 - 10:05 PM, said:

Mr. Bluefinger

Revelation 8:7 "The first angel  sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the EARTH: and the THIRD part of the trees was burnt up, and ALL green grass was burnt up."


  When did this happen?

The battle of Jotapata, during the war between Rome and Judea.  Flavius Josephus gives a detailed account of it in his book The Wars of the Jews.  During the battle, the Romans used catapults to launch hundred pound stones at the walls, killing some on contact.  When the Romans took the city, they killed all the men there (approximately 40,000) and took the women and children captive.  This was the first of battles between the Romans and the Jews in Galilee.  I will explain my answer.

If you read the Olivet Discourse given in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 (as well as the discussion in Luke 21), you'll see that they line up really well with the seals and trumpets.

First seal - wars and rumors of wars.
Second seal - nation will rise against nation
Third seal - and there will be famine
Fourth seal - and pestilences in various places
Fifth seal - then they will hand you over to the synagogues to be persecuted
Sixth seal - but when you see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place...

144,000 sealed - let them that are in Judea flee the country
Great Multitude - And this Gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations

Seventh seal - And then the end will come

"For then there will be  great tribulation,  such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.    And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for  the sake of the elect those days will be cut short." (Matthew 24:21, 22 ESV)

The elect were the 144,000 that were destined to follow Jesus.  They were called out of Jerusalem before it was destroyed, like Lot was told to flee Sodom.  

So why the 'thirds?'  Because a third of humanity wasn't talking about the number of people.  A third of humanity was talking about the sons of Noah.  One was Shem, the other was Japheth, and the last was Ham.  The third in question here is Shem, the forefather of the Semitic people.  Flavius Josephus, in the only time he used the word, used Shem to describe a group of Jewish rebels that chased down Cestius after he turned and fled from Jerusalem.

“When the front of the Jewish army had been cut off, the Jews retired into the city; but still Simon, the son of Giora, fell upon the backs of the Romans, as they were ascending up Bethoron, and put the hindmost of the army into disorder, and carried off many of the beasts that carried the weapons of war, and led Shem into the city. But as Cestius tarried there three days, the Jews seized upon the elevated parts of the city, and set watches at the entrances into the city, and appeared openly resolved not to rest when once the Romans should begin to march.”

Excerpt From: Josephus, Flavius. “The Wars of the Jews; or the history of the destruction of Jerusalem.

[Bluefinger]

braveone2u, on 23 January 2013 - 02:13 AM, said:

Hi Bluefinger,

Was John of Patmos near death when he wrote the "Book of Revelation"? Do you know his backstory, not just online info?

Thanks in advance!

Good question braveone!

I don't think Eusebius was correct in saying that John died of old age shortly after the reign of Domitian.  I think that all the Apostles died before Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 CE.  It's not that I pride myself.  Take a look at this:

"Then  the mother of the sons of Zebedee came up to him with her sons, and  kneeling before him she asked him for something.  And he said to her,  "What do you want?"  She said to him, "Say that these two sons of mine  are to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left,  in your kingdom."  Jesus answered,  "You do not know what you are asking. Are you able  to drink the cup that I am to drink?"  They said to him, "We are able."  He said to them,  "You will drink  my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant,  but it is for those for whom it has been  prepared by my Father." (Matthew 20:20-23 ESV)

So did John and James both die a painful death like Jesus or did only James?

It seems like fourth century commentary contradicts earlier accounts.  But there is really no information of what happened around the time that Peter and Paul died.  What I get from the Gospel narratives and the epistles is that all the apostles were killed shortly before the war in Judea began, John being possibly the last.  

I asked my friend one time, "Why the sudden disappearance in Jewish background to Christian theology?"  Where did Christianity become a Greek and Latin religion rather than a Jewish reform?  

What I think happened is that a big persecution broke out between the Jews and the Christians, driving the Christians out of Judea.  Around that time, rebellions swept Jerusalem that drove out their procurator and their king.  All the Apostles were killed, but not before spreading the Gospel to the Gentiles.  When Jerusalem was destroyed, the Christians enjoyed relative peace for a bit because they did not associate themselves with the Jews.  That was the cause of the urgency of the letters to the seven churches.  It was saying that the times of the Jews was coming to an end (sixth trumpet) and the times of the Gentiles was beginning (Rev. 10:11; two witnesses.)  All that was kept a mystery about the inclusion of the Gentiles into the Abrahamic Covenant was revealed to John.

These truths and the circumstances in which they rose, I believe, came about as a result of Jerusalem's destruction.  The Jewish Christians exchanged identities, being called by the new name Christian rather than as Jews; excluding them from the tribulation their Jewish counterparts went through.  It was no longer beneficial to boast of circumcision or of knowing the Torah.  Christ crucified became the only beneficial thing to boast of.  And it actually saved the remnant of ethnic Israel that God had elected.  Thus, Jewish thought and background disappeared from Christian thought.  The Gentiles had received the Gospel and produced fruits of righteousness and faithfulness with it.  

So, given all this that I've shown, it is likely that John was about to die.  Since the Gospel narratives were copied long after Jerusalem's destruction, it seems logical to me to conclude that it was accepted very early that John had died a martyr's death.

Edited by Bluefinger, 23 January 2013 - 05:05 AM.

[Ogbin]

Mr.Bluefinger

How can the 2 olive trees and 2 candlesticks in Zech.4 be the Church when the Church did not come about untill after the death and resurection of Jesus?

Edited by Ogbin, 23 January 2013 - 05:28 PM.

[Bluefinger]

Ogbin, on 23 January 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

Mr.Bluefinger

How can the 2 olive trees and 2 candlesticks in Zech.4 be the Church when the Church did not come about untill after the death and resurection of Jesus?

There was only one candlestick in Zech. 4.

Revelation 11 quotes Zech. 4 to communicate that God would commission kings and priests from many nations, languages, tribes, and kingdoms to build God's temple, the Church.

"For  through him we both have  access in  one Spirit to the Father.  So then you are no longer  strangers and aliens,  but you are  fellow citizens with the saints and  members of the household of God,  built on the foundation of the  apostles and prophets,  Christ Jesus himself being  the cornerstone,  in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into  a holy temple in the Lord.  In him  you also are being built together  into a dwelling place for God by  the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:18-22 ESV)

A temple is a dwelling place for God's presence. Hence, the measurements given in Rev. 11:1.  The old temple was destroyed by the Romans.  

As Joshua the High Priest and Zerubbabel the governor were chosen by God to build the second temple, so were the saints chosen to build the third temple.  Rev. 1:6, 5:10, and 20:6 all show that the saints were priests and kings.  

They minister while Jerusalem is trampled underfoot by the Gentiles.  Thus they are Gentile believers.

[Tesla II]

Interesting!

I would like to know what might this beast in question 5 represent? And based on what do you think it represents what you found out?

[Ogbin]

Mr.Bluefinger


you still havn't explained how the church is standing before God when the church was yet created.

you also state that Rev.11 quotes Zech.4. so we are in agreement that TWO means 2.

so how can 2 people who have been standing before God before Christ came and died for our sins  and rose again be the church?

and a side note. It is historicly proven that Revelation was wrote about 95 A.D. Kinda throws a kink in your story don't ya think?

Edited by Ogbin, 23 January 2013 - 08:44 PM.

[Bluefinger]

Nuke_em, on 23 January 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

Interesting!

I would like to know what might this beast in question 5 represent? And based on what do you think it represents what you found out?

Hi Nuke_em,

The beast of Revelation 13 was the Western Roman Empire.  You'd have to build from chapter 12 to solidify that interpretation.

Chapter 12 shows Israel in exile (pregnant woman) and waiting for their Messiah to throw off Gentile authority (the Dragon.)  The dragon had seven heads and ten horns.  Pay close attention to the crowns.  They are on the heads, not the horns like chapter 13's beast has.  This shows that the seven kingdoms are Babylon, Persia, the four divisions of the Grecian Empire, and the Roman Empire.  Chapter 12 ends with the end of the Times of the Jews (woman in wilderness) and the beginning of the Times of the Gentiles (offspring of the woman.)  The dragon made war against the until Constantine legalized Christianity and gave the kingdom to the saints.

Chapter 13 shows a beast with seven heads and ten horns like the dragon, but crowns on the horns.  Ten symbolizes division, such as when ten tribes rebelled against Jeroboam and formes the Northern Kingdom.  Likewise, the Roman Empire received a mortal wound in 476 CE, when the Germanic tribes took over.  They divided the Western Empire among themselves and did not form an empire again until 800 CE, when Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne as imperator Augustus, healing the mortal wound that was dealt to the Roman Empire.  

The dragon gave all its dominion to the beast.  This beast then made war on the saints by way of crusades and inquistions.  This kingdom flourished until the 15th century, when the imperial authority moved from France to Spain.  Thats when the second beast rose to power and really spread its dominion over the earth.  The Spanish Empire was once known as the Empire on which the Sun Never Sets.  South America, Central America, and Mexico show this all too well.  

It was during Spain's empire that conquered natives were forced to become Catholics and in which the Protestants were exiled from France.  The exile left an economic hole that the government did nothing to fix, bringing frustrations to a tipping point that led to the French Revolution.  

From that point, the seven plagues have been stripping the beast of its power and dominion.  My personal belief is that we are near the end of the sixth plague.

[Bluefinger]

Ogbin, on 23 January 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

Mr.Bluefinger


you still havn't explained how the church is standing before God when the church was yet created.

Its an act of commission.  Zechariah showed the Joshua and Zerubbabel would rebuild the temple before they were anointed.  And they stood before the Lord before Israel became a nation again.  I see your point though.

Quote

you also state that Rev.11 quotes Zech.4. so we are in agreement that TWO means 2.

No.  The candlestick in Zech. 4 was the temple.  Yet Revelation said that there were two temples.  How is that possible?  In Rev. 11, it shows that the new temple would consist of the altar (of incense; for prayers), the santuary (where God dwelled), and those that worshiped there (priests, the Church.)  This was all before Jerusalem was destroyed.  

What happened was the elect fled Judea and brought the Gospel to the Gentiles.  It was only AFTER Jerusalem was destroyed that they were given the kingdom of God, per Matthew 21:43.  The two lampstands are, therefore, not two temples.  They are places God's Spirit made His dwelling place:  Among the elect and among those that came to believe because of them (the Gentiles.)  Because the Jewish Nation was destroyed, the elect lost their national identity, living among Gentiles like the woman in Rev. 12 was preserved in the desert.

Quote

so how can 2 people who have been standing before God before Christ came and died for our sins  and rose again be the church?

I think you are under the impression that Revelation 11 is the fulfillment of Zechariah 4.  They are not historically related, only contextually similar.  That is why Zech. 4 was used.  Not as fulfillment but rather as a clue to explain what text was truly communicating.

Quote

and a side note.     It is historicly proven that Revelation was wrote about 95 A.D.    Kinda throws a kink in your story don't ya think?

No it doesn't.  As early as Isaac Newton's day, the statement of Eusebius (which you described about 95 CE) was inaccurate when paired against many testimonies from literary analysis and conflicting testimonies.

Take the earlier account of John running after a prodigal to save him from being caught up with the wrong crowd.  It says that John pursued him up hill.  How could he have done that at such an old age?  On top of that Matthew 20:20-24 shows that BOTH James and John would die as martyrs, showing that earlier accounts conflict with tradition.

Which is it?  Did John die in Ephesus of old age or did he die a martyr's death somewhere else?  We have significant cause to challenge Eusebius on this.  The accounts in Scripture and the accounts in tradition do not line up.

Edited by Bluefinger, 23 January 2013 - 10:00 PM.

[Tesla II]

Bluefinger, on 23 January 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

Hi Nuke_em,

The beast of Revelation 13 was the Western Roman Empire.  You'd have to build from chapter 12 to solidify that interpretation.

Chapter 12 shows Israel in exile (pregnant woman) and waiting for their Messiah to throw off Gentile authority (the Dragon.)  The dragon had seven heads and ten horns.  Pay close attention to the crowns.  They are on the heads, not the horns like chapter 13's beast has.  This shows that the seven kingdoms are Babylon, Persia, the four divisions of the Grecian Empire, and the Roman Empire.  Chapter 12 ends with the end of the Times of the Jews (woman in wilderness) and the beginning of the Times of the Gentiles (offspring of the woman.)  The dragon made war against the until Constantine legalized Christianity and gave the kingdom to the saints.

Chapter 13 shows a beast with seven heads and ten horns like the dragon, but crowns on the horns.  Ten symbolizes division, such as when ten tribes rebelled against Jeroboam and formes the Northern Kingdom.  Likewise, the Roman Empire received a mortal wound in 476 CE, when the Germanic tribes took over.  They divided the Western Empire among themselves and did not form an empire again until 800 CE, when Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne as imperator Augustus, healing the mortal wound that was dealt to the Roman Empire.  

The dragon gave all its dominion to the beast.  This beast then made war on the saints by way of crusades and inquistions.  This kingdom flourished until the 15th century, when the imperial authority moved from France to Spain.  Thats when the second beast rose to power and really spread its dominion over the earth.  The Spanish Empire was once known as the Empire on which the Sun Never Sets.  South America, Central America, and Mexico show this all too well.  

It was during Spain's empire that conquered natives were forced to become Catholics and in which the Protestants were exiled from France.  The exile left an economic hole that the government did nothing to fix, bringing frustrations to a tipping point that led to the French Revolution.  

From that point, the seven plagues have been stripping the beast of its power and dominion.  My personal belief is that we are near the end of the sixth plague.

even more interesting! So if i got this right the plagues started at french revolution? And what did those plagues represent? Acutaly virus outbreaks or some sort of bacteria or this is merely methaforical speaking? What will it be the 7th plague in your opinion and where did the beast go?

[Bluefinger]

Nuke_em, on 24 January 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

even more interesting! So if i got this right the plagues started at french revolution? And what did those plagues represent? Acutaly virus outbreaks or some sort of bacteria or this is merely methaforical speaking? What will it be the 7th plague in your opinion and where did the beast go?

I think that the plagues are actually more related to the plagues caused from the curse of the Law in Deuteronomy 28:15-68.  "Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the  Lord  bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed." (Deuteronomy 28:61 KJV)

So the seven plagues are about the destruction of the beast, not the entire earth.  God did not punish the Spanish Empire until the Protestants were exiled from France.  

The first vial of God's wrath was an actual plague called the Great Plague of Selville.  It was the worst of the Middle Ages.  The second vial was the French Revolution, which, when the expulsion of the Hugenots and the reduction of population from the plagues, it became difficult to sustain the monarchy while the general populace was so reduced.  So the economy tanked and the French commoners overthrew their monarchy.

The third vial was the reign of terror.  Just as the government and Roman Church killed the saints, the French decapitated thousands of aristocrats, priests, and nobles.  So they drank blood because they spilled blood.

The fourth vial were the Napoleanic Wars.  The Bourbons fought for the monarchy and attempted to reestablish the Ancien Regime.  Approximately 1 million people died in these wars.  

The fifth vial was when Napoleon stripped the Roman Church of all authority and made it a puppet of the State.  He soon disbanded the Holy Roman Empire altogether.  The beast's throne was plunges into darkness and the power of the beast had come to an end.  But that wouldn't stop the Western Empire from trying to establish itself again.

The sixth vial are three world wars.  These deceiving spirits gather the kings of the earth for battle on the great day of God Almighty.  One from the world's empires.  The second from Western Europe.  And the third will come from a false propeht.  From everything I've seen in my life, it would be easy to conclude that the false prophet is Muhammed.  But Revelation says nothing of the sort, rather pointing mainly to Rome.  Somehow, a Pope is going to get Rome destroyed.  Several unScriptural prophecies suh as the Third Prophecy of Fatima and the Prophecy of the Popes by St. Malachy seem to point to that conclusion.

All this has the effect of stripping the beast of its power and dominion and giving it to the saints of the Most High.

About the seventh plague:  Rome will be destroyed utterly by a new empire.  That's all Revelation says.  We should look to the events in Jerusalem as indicators, ironically.  When Jerusalem receives her King, Babylon will quickly become illigitimate.

Edited by Bluefinger, 24 January 2013 - 08:28 PM.

[DBunker]

Why did God create Ahura Mazda, Hari and Buddah?

[AquilaChrysaetos]

DBunker, on 26 January 2013 - 04:34 AM, said:

Why did God create Ahura Mazda, Hari and Buddah?

Better question is why'd he create Satan?

[Ogbin]

Bluefinger, on 23 January 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

Hi Nuke_em,

The beast of Revelation 13 was the Western Roman Empire.  You'd have to build from chapter 12 to solidify that interpretation.

Chapter 12 shows Israel in exile (pregnant woman) and waiting for their Messiah to throw off Gentile authority (the Dragon.)  The dragon had seven heads and ten horns.  Pay close attention to the crowns.  They are on the heads, not the horns like chapter 13's beast has.  This shows that the seven kingdoms are Babylon, Persia, the four divisions Itof the Grecian Empire, and the Roman Empire. Chapter 12 ends with the end of the Times of the Jews (woman in wilderness) and the beginning of the Times of the Gentiles (offspring of the woman.) The dragon made war against the until Constantine legalized Christianity and gave the kingdom to the saints.

Chapter 13 shows a beast with seven heads and ten horns like the dragon, but crowns on the horns. Ten symbolizes division, such as when ten tribes rebelled against Jeroboam and formes the Northern Kingdom. Likewise, the Roman Empire received a mortal wound in 476 CE, when the Germanic tribes took over. They divided the Western Empire among themselves and did not form an empire again until 800 CE, when Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne as imperator Augustus, healing the mortal wound that was dealt to the Roman Empire.

The dragon gave all its dominion to the beast. This beast then made war on the saints by way of crusades and inquistions. This kingdom flourished until the 15th century, when the imperial authority moved from France to Spain. Thats when the second beast rose to power and really spread its dominion over the earth. The Spanish Empire was once known as the Empire on which the Sun Never Sets. South America, Central America, and Mexico show this all too well.  

was during Spain's empire that conquered natives were forced to become Catholics and in which the Protestants were exiled from France.  The exile left an economic hole that the government did nothing to fix, bringing frustrations to a tipping point that led to the French Revolution.  

From that point, the seven plagues have been stripping the beast of its power and dominion.  My personal belief is that we are near the end of the sixth plague.