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Jesus was born years earlier than thought

pope jesus dionysius exiguus

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#61    Jor-el

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 10:49 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 23 November 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

It was said Herod the Great died in 4bc so maybe the census was under Herod Archelaus


Herod Archelaus (23 BC – c. 18 AD) was the ethnarch of Samaria, Judea, and Idumea (biblical Edom) from 4 BC to 6 AD.

No, he was born under the reign of Herod the great, Who did NOT die in 4 B.C. but rather in January of 1 B.C. Too many people have fallen under the error because of a supposed Lunar eclipse that was after all nothing but a partial eclipse.

They ignored Historians who put Herod alive and well in 3 B.C when the Empire wide enrollment of loyalty to Augustus Caesar took place.

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#62    Jor-el

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 10:56 PM

View PostCoffey, on 23 November 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:



Well you have been scammed if you beleive Christmas was Jesus's Birthday.

It never was his Birthday, it was a pagan holiday and they made it Jesus's Birthday to push out paganbism and make the transition to Christianity easier.

Same with Easter etc.

He was born in September of 3 B.C. Christmas ironically is very close to the date of Hannuka and the magi arrived to visit him during that particular period. The thing is that when they did so it was in December of 2 B.C. Jesus was already a toddler, a little over 1 year old at the time.

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#63    docyabut2

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 12:32 AM

View PostJor-el, on 07 January 2013 - 10:49 PM, said:


No, he was born under the reign of Herod the great, Who did NOT die in 4 B.C. but rather in January of 1 B.C. Too many people have fallen under the error because of a supposed Lunar eclipse that was after all nothing but a partial eclipse.

They ignored Historians who put Herod alive and well in 3 B.C when the Empire wide enrollment of loyalty to Augustus Caesar took place.

The writings say Jesus was born around at the time of Herod`s census.


The Jewish historian Josephus recorded that in the year 6–7,[2] after the exile of Herod Archelaus (one of the sons and successors of Herod the Great), Quirinius (in Greek, Κυρήνιος, sometimes transliterated Cyrenius), a Roman senator, became governor (Legatus) of Syria, while an equestrian assistant named Coponius was assigned as the first governor (Prefect) of the newly-created Iudaea Province. These governors were assigned to conduct a tax census for the Emperor in Syria and Iudaea.[

Herod Archelaus (23 BC – c. 18 AD) was the ethnarch of Samaria, Judea, and Idumea (biblical Edom) from 4 BC to 6 AD.



http://en.wikipedia....us_of_Quirinius


#64    freetoroam

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:11 PM

View PostAquilaChrysaetos, on 07 January 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

First of all, I really don't care what the Pope thinks. Second of all, it really doesn't matter when it happened, what matters is that it did.
I think it does matter, it will mean that people have been following the wrong guy....which means that unless his mother was also called Mary and father called Joseph and his mother claimed Joseph was not the father because god was...then the guy being followed all these years is NOT the alleged son of god and is NOT anyone special.
But hey! not everyone will see it as an issue...personally if i were a christian i would like to know i was following the right guy.

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.

#65    Jor-el

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 06:39 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 08 January 2013 - 12:32 AM, said:

The writings say Jesus was born around at the time of Herod`s census.


The Jewish historian Josephus recorded that in the year 6–7,[2] after the exile of Herod Archelaus (one of the sons and successors of Herod the Great), Quirinius (in Greek, Κυρήνιος, sometimes transliterated Cyrenius), a Roman senator, became governor (Legatus) of Syria, while an equestrian assistant named Coponius was assigned as the first governor (Prefect) of the newly-created Iudaea Province. These governors were assigned to conduct a tax census for the Emperor in Syria and Iudaea.[

Herod Archelaus (23 BC – c. 18 AD) was the ethnarch of Samaria, Judea, and Idumea (biblical Edom) from 4 BC to 6 AD.



http://en.wikipedia....us_of_Quirinius

The text is also quite clear that Jesus was born under Herod the Great, not Herod Archelaus.

The writings as you put it, are NOT referring to a tax census at all, that is NOT even the word that was used. It is an erroneous translation from the original greek text.

The word is ἀπογράφω (apographō)

Now, any lexicon will give us a concise meaning, I've taken the liberty of choosing two different sources. The 1st is Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexiconwhich gives us the following:

1) to write off, copy (from some pattern)

2) to enter in a register or records

a) spec. to enter in public records the names of men, their property and income

Posted Image to enrol


The 2nd is Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: which gave me the following result:

For TAXED, TAXING see ENROLL, ENROLMENT

After searching for Enroll, Enrollment I got the following:

<A-1,Verb,583,apographo>

primarily signifies "to write out, to copy;" then, "to enroll, to inscribe," as in a register. It is used of a census, Luke 2:1 RV, "be enrolled," for AV, "be taxed;" in the Middle Voice, Luke 2:3,5, to enroll oneself, AV, "be taxed." Confirmation that this census (not taxation) was taken in the dominions of the Roman Empire is given by the historians Tacitus and Suetonius. Augustus himself drew up a sort of Roman Doomsday Book, a rationarium, afterwards epitomized into a breviarium, to include the allied kingdoms, appointing twenty commissioners to draw up the lists. In Heb. 12:23 the members of the Church of the firstborn are said to be "enrolled," RV.

<B-1,Noun,582,apagraphe>

primarily denotes "a written copy", or, as a law term, "a deposition;" then, "a register, census, enrollment," Luke 2:2; Acts 5:37, RV, for AV, "taxing."

As far as I can see, the exact idea of this word means to be enrolled or to be included in a register. Essentially the idea is one of a compilation of names for a specific purpose, and can be denoted as a census, but there is no connotation to taxation of revenue as something intrinsic to the word. Not that it can't be used that way, but that is not what the word means as a whole. It is one possible meaning among others. It is the reason for the blooper in the majority of translations from the greek.

As such we can exclude the taxation Census' you mentioned in your post. The meaning is quite clear it is an enrollment or listing of people who have given an oath.

This is attested by at least two early historians.

The Armenian historian Moses of Khoren said that the native sources he had available showed that in the second year of Abgar, king of Armenia in 3 B.C., this oath of allegience brought Roman agents to Armenia, bringing the image of Augustus Caesar, which they set up in every temple. Abgar then a problem with Herod (who is supposed to be dead at this time). He also states categorically that this is the census referred to by Luke.


R.W. Thomson, Moses of Khoren's History of the Armenians, II.26.

Direct link to the book. Refer to pages 163 and 164





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Here is another source for this oath of allegience...

“[Augustus] ordered that a census be taken of each province everywhere and that all men be enrolled. ... This is the earliest and most famous public acknowledgment which marked Caesar as the first of all men and the Romans as lords of the world, a published list of all men entered individually .... This first and greatest census was taken, since in this one name of Caesar all the peoples of the great nations took oath, and at the same time, through the participation in the census, were made apart of one society”


Orosius, A History, against the Pagans VII.2.


Both make the connection between the oath of Allegience, and the census. Maybe there is no interest in actually verifying the nativity account, it makes it much easier to say that no such person as Jesus ever existed.

Edited by Jor-el, 08 January 2013 - 06:47 PM.

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#66    Mike D boy

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 03:29 AM

Thats' what we get for limited education of authorities in the early church used rudimentary astrological and astronomical techniques to find when exactly Jesus Christ supposedly was born. Personally, I can't be sure when exactly is the date and year of Jesus Christ's birth, but the point is we celebrate his alleged "birthday" and chronologically our calendar starts in 1BC (now the year is 2013), and that is OK by me.

Whether he's born in 4BC or 2BC, 2AD or 4AD, or his birthdates are guessed at Sep. or Dec. , Jan. or Mar. , the best method to honor the Christian "son of god" is to set the time tables of his birth that was available and convenient to followers to honor and celebrate his age.

:innocent: The Truth is Out There - the X Files. :alien:

#67    JonK

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 10:55 PM

herod died in 4 BC not AD... i already knew that before looking it up for a verification.


#68    shrooma

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 11:41 PM

you people really need to study the qumran texts.
they are written contemporary with jesus' life, and describe him as being nothing more than an essene jew.
ask yourselves the meaning of 'barabbas'?
do you think barabbas was some sort of criminal, set free on jesus' behalf, or do you understand who barabbas was, namely, jesus' brother james?
barabbas isn't a NAME, its a title, meaning 'son of the father'.
if you study the qumran texts, you'll realise that jesus WASN'T the son of god, he was nothing more than a prophet, and if history would've taken james' point of view instead, your world view would be totally different.
you are supposed to look at the bible as an allegory, not as literal truth, but when confronted with earlier, contemporary versions of scriptures, you deny them as heresy.
why is that?
because they don't fit your misconception?
no wonder the church tried banning monty python's 'life of brian'
it was too close to the truth for their liking.....

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#69    markdohle

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:07 AM

View PostStill Waters, on 22 November 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

The entire Christian calendar is based on a miscalculation, the Pope has declared, as he claims in a new book that Jesus was born several years earlier than commonly believed.

"The calculation of the beginning of our calendar – based on the birth of Jesus – was made by Dionysius Exiguus, who made a mistake in his calculations by several years," the Pope writes in the book, which went on sale around the world with an initial print run of a million copies.

"The actual date of Jesus's birth was several years before."

http://www.telegraph...laims-Pope.html

That has been know for a long time.  As a kid, I was told it was 4BC that he was born.

peace
mark


#70    ciriuslea

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:09 AM

Did Jesus even exist, he shares so many similarities with other 'characters' in other religions across the globe, its unreal...the sun god, born of a virgin, Dec 25th, the Resurrection etc etc..


#71    Paranoid Android

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 05:30 AM

View Postciriuslea, on 03 March 2013 - 12:09 AM, said:

Did Jesus even exist, he shares so many similarities with other 'characters' in other religions across the globe, its unreal...the sun god, born of a virgin, Dec 25th, the Resurrection etc etc..
Methinks you've been looking at too many conspiracy sites :yes:

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#72    Paranoid Android

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 05:37 AM

View Postshrooma, on 02 March 2013 - 11:41 PM, said:

you people really need to study the qumran texts.
they are written contemporary with jesus' life, and describe him as being nothing more than an essene jew.
ask yourselves the meaning of 'barabbas'?
do you think barabbas was some sort of criminal, set free on jesus' behalf, or do you understand who barabbas was, namely, jesus' brother james?
barabbas isn't a NAME, its a title, meaning 'son of the father'.
if you study the qumran texts, you'll realise that jesus WASN'T the son of god, he was nothing more than a prophet, and if history would've taken james' point of view instead, your world view would be totally different.
you are supposed to look at the bible as an allegory, not as literal truth, but when confronted with earlier, contemporary versions of scriptures, you deny them as heresy.
why is that?
because they don't fit your misconception?
no wonder the church tried banning monty python's 'life of brian'
it was too close to the truth for their liking.....
Actually, the majority of the Qumran scrolls date to the century before Jesus, and none of them mention Jesus at all.  Some have tried to date the texts to the time of Jesus and link him to the "Wicked Priest", but the vast vast vast vast majority of scholars dismiss that line of reasoning as totally baseless.  So with respect, perhaps it is you who needs to study the Qumran texts.

P.S - I'm a Christian and absolutely LOVE Monty Python's Life of Brian.

Edited by Paranoid Android, 05 March 2013 - 06:19 AM.

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#73    Jor-el

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 08:32 PM

View Postmarkdohle, on 03 March 2013 - 12:07 AM, said:

That has been know for a long time.  As a kid, I was told it was 4BC that he was born.

peace
mark

What has been told is a baseless assumption. There is absolutely no evidence that Jesus was born in 4 BC, just as there is no evidence that Herod died in 4 BC. There is evidence though that in 3 BC, (when he was supposed to be dead) he was involved in a dispute with the neighbouring state of Armenia, which at the time belonged to the Persian Empire.

Now the question is, how can a man who is supposedly dead, do any of this in 3 B.C. if he died in 4 B.C.?

The only reason and I mean that quite literally, the only reason why the death of Herod is tied to the year 4 B.C. is because of a supposed lunar eclipse in that year. The proponents of this theory conveniently forget to tell us that it was only a partial eclipse and that there was another such eclipse in 1 B.C., which was a total eclipse. The difference is important since it was an eclipse that turned the moon blood red, and these only happen on a full lunar eclipse.


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Full Lunar Eclipse Sequence

http://www.astronomy...akedeye/s14.htm

This information comes from Josephus Antiquities and there is absolutely no reason to remember a partial lunar eclipse, there would be no symblism attached to such an occurence. Only a full lunar eclipse with a bllod red colour satisfies the reasoning for an eclipse to be mentioned at all in relation to Herods death.

Other arguments are used especially in regrads to the number of years Herod reigned in Israel from the time he conquered Jerusalem, but these too are based on a number of assumptions which are easily demonstrated to be false.

All indications lead me to believe that the year Jesus was born was in 3 B.C., specifically in Septemebr.

Edited by Jor-el, 04 March 2013 - 08:46 PM.

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#74    ciriuslea

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 10:33 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 03 March 2013 - 05:30 AM, said:

Methinks you've been looking at too many conspiracy sites :yes:

Don't take my word for it do your own research...the virgin birth, the resurrection, born 25th, the sun god etc etc..all attributes you can find in other deities from other religions.
Horus born 25th Dec born of a virgin 'Isis' star in the east, adored by three kings, was betrayed, crucified and resurrection after three days,
Attis
Krishna,
Dionysus  
Mithra and many many more all have attributes similar to those of Jesus.


#75    ciriuslea

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 10:48 PM

http://www.gather.co...81814240

http://en.wikipedia....-and-rising_god

I could post links all day long showing those same attributes exist in deities from every religion ever conceived, If a mod wants to call them conspiracy fair enough..but at least do the research before dismiss *snip* :tu:

Almost every aspect to Catholicism is taken from earlier dogma, mainly the Torah and Egyptian paganism, much like how Mohammad took Catholicism spun it and regurgitated it as Islam

Edited by Paranoid Android, 08 March 2013 - 08:12 AM.
Removed offensive remark





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