Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * - - 5 votes

[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
11638 replies to this topic

#4516    The Puzzler

The Puzzler

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,620 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2007

Posted 29 April 2011 - 03:41 PM

Azi in Persian relates to the word fire. The term below for dragon begenning with azi would be fire something, like fire breather. Also the land of Azer as in Azerbaijan - it means basically land of fire - Land of Azer. You pointed this azi out in Amazigh - azi - Atlas's mother is often named as Asia - Azer - fire possibly. Into Libya we have the Azer too - the Berbers displaced them.

In historical times, the Berbers expanded south into the Sahara (displacing earlier populations such as the Azer and Bafour), and have in turn been mainly culturally assimilated in much of North Africa by Arabs, particularly following the incursion of the Banu Hilal in the 11th century.

The Azer - these people are now the West African Soninke and had the great Ghana Empire at one time, through all of history they have traded gold, diamonds and salt. They practice circumcision. Right on the West Coast of Africa where Herodotus had Atlanteans marked on the map we see of his interpretation.

The name stands out to me:
And of the fifth pair he gave to the elder the name of Azaes, and to the younger that of Diaprepes.

I recalled that the Azers were in this area because of my intense research into Atlantis.

If anything the ezza letter looks like a Runic number 18 but apparently they are unrelated...

In Azerbaijan I read they were fire-worshippers so were named by the Persians as such but the info may have been dubious, sounds pretty logical though.



Notice now that Sabazios also has the word AZI in it. He's most likely from Thrace and went into Anatolia with the Phrygians.

Transference of Sabazios to the Roman world appears to have been mediated in large part through Pergamum.[7] The naturally syncretic approach of Greek religion blurred distinctions. Later Greek writers, like Strabo in the first century CE, linked Sabazios with Zagreus, among Phrygian ministers and attendants of the sacred rites of Rhea and Dionysos.[8] Strabo's Sicilian contemporary, Diodorus Siculus, conflated Sabazios with the secret 'second' Dionysus, born of Zeus and Persephone,[9] a connection that is not borne out by surviving inscriptions, which are entirely to Zeus Sabazios.[10] The Christian Clement of Alexandria had been informed that the secret mysteries of Sabazius, as practiced among the Romans, involved a serpent, a chthonic creature unconnected with the mounted skygod of Phrygia: "‘God in the bosom’ is a countersign of the mysteries of Sabazius to the adepts". Clement reports: "This is a snake, passed through the bosom of the initiates”.[11]

Much later, the Byzantine Greek encyclopedia, Sudas (10th century?), flatly states

"Sabazios... is the same as Dionysos. He acquired this form of address from the rite pertaining to him; for the barbarians call the bacchic cry 'sabazein'. Hence some of the Greeks too follow suit and call the cry 'sabasmos'; thereby Dionysos [becomes] Sabazios. They also used to call 'saboi' those places that had been dedicated to him and his Bacchantes... Demosthenes [in the speech] 'On Behalf of Ktesiphon' [mentions them]. Some say that Saboi is the term for those who are dedicated to Sabazios, that is to Dionysos, just as those [dedicated] to Bakkhos [are] Bakkhoi. They say that Sabazios and Dionysos are the same. Thus some also say that the Greeks call the Bakkhoi Saboi."[12]

In Roman sites, though not a single temple consecrated to Sabazius, the rider god of the open air, has been located,[13] small votive hands, typically made of copper or bronze, are often associated with the cult of Sabazios. Many of these hands have a small perforation at the base which suggests they may have been attached to wooden poles and carried in processions. The symbolism of these objects is not well known.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabazios

I reckon this cult was on Crete. I have a book here, I could photograph the picture, its an old book, it has a drawing by Arthur Evans of on Crete a scene he drew, it shows 2 women and one is holding the other one's hand and that woman has a terrified look on her face, while around them on the floor is scattered hands...? It always stuck with me, I thought, what's going on here, is this woman going to cut off the other womans hand? In a sacrifice maybe..so it's odd that I now find this is the cult of Sabazios - a fire worshipping group, with snakes and hands. Dionysus also rescues Ariadne too so his connection as Sabazios in Crete actually makes sense.

It's very likely imo that the cult of Sabazios also was in Libya and the ancient Azer AND Amazigh have a connection to fire as well.

The word comparison might be free and possibly noble, simply from the relationship with the fire, flame, hearth, sun, whatever, if Fire is Sabazios and he is also Dionysus you have them both, Dionysus is always Liberty.

Somehow the worship of this fire must have liberated you imo. The (important) lamp, the flame that always had to be lit and kept so and looked after in temples is what bought you freedom and liberty.

Delphi was the common hearth of all Greeks, their central fire - so it's likely that Troy was also an Azi people, Troy burned and they worshipped Apollo.

The first Jews who settled in Rome were expelled in 139 BCE, along with Chaldaean astrologers by Cornelius Hispalus under a law which proscribed the propagation of the "corrupting" cult of "Jupiter Sabazius," according to the epitome of a lost book of Valerius Maximus:

Gnaeus Cornelius Hispalus, praetor peregrinus in the year of the consulate of Marcus Popilius Laenas and Lucius Calpurnius, ordered the astrologers by an edict to leave Rome and Italy within ten days, since by a fallacious interpretation of the stars they perturbed fickle and silly minds, thereby making profit out of their lies. The same praetor compelled the Jews, who attempted to infect the Roman custom with the cult of Jupiter Sabazius, to return to their homes."[15]

By this it is conjectured that the Romans identified the Jewish Yahveh Sabaoth ("of the Hosts") as Sabazius.

This mistaken connection of Sabazios and Sabaoth has often been repeated. In a similar vein, Plutarch maintained that the Jews worshipped Dionysus, and that the day of Sabbath was a festival of Sabazius.


Who says it's a mistake????

If the Jews worshipped Jupiter Sabazius - who was a sky God, and his hand...


Posted Image
http://en.wikipedia....and_of_God_(art)

Wouldn't you think the Hand of God would be THIS hand???

Then that would make the Sabbath easily relatable to Sabazius - because he would be God.

A mistaken connection I'm sure...

You gotta love the reason the Chaldean astrologers were kicked out of Rome, well I did, I thought it was hysterical actually.

...since by a fallacious interpretation of the stars they perturbed fickle and silly minds, thereby making profit out of their lies.

Edited by The Puzzler, 29 April 2011 - 04:13 PM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#4517    The Puzzler

The Puzzler

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,620 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2007

Posted 29 April 2011 - 04:42 PM

Sky father - dyeus - Zeus - hmmm

I'll go back to another post:

Quote

aiwo - vital force. I think this word sounds relative to IOVI, (especially with the V sound from the Eve variation) this description of Zeus as Jupiter as used in the word JOVE - An inscription from Capua[2] to IOVI VESVVIO indicates that he was worshipped as a power of Jupiter; that is, Jupiter Vesuvius.

The VITAL FORCE of Vesuvius in this indication.

If I looked at dyeus and played lego with it I could come up with y-eu - io - remember I got IO out of it - take the d and s off and we have y-eu or y-oo or even ai-yo etc - so if you play enough aiwo that sounds like IOVI - the dyeus as sky father is probably the Vital force and that is probably what dyeus really means.

Sabazios as Saba-zios is the Saba life force, how do we know the Saba doesn't equate to Hebrew Shabbat - 'to cease'. To cease the life force = death. Sabazios the name could equate to this in a strange way. Death also brings release in many instances - Jesus is one - the death of one releases from bondage the many.

Enough for me for today. Ciao.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#4518    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,109 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005

Posted 29 April 2011 - 06:26 PM

Puzz, I never suggested the Yazh sign of the Berber was a (Nordic) rune sign.

But I did find what I was looking for, although there are many who think the next guy is fair game, lol.

OK, for starters, a pic (copied from the pdf):

Posted Image


The pdf (with all the 6-spoked wheels you ever encountered on the web):

SHORT HISTORY OF THE “SUN OF THE ALPS” / THE HUNGARIAN ALANS IN AFRICA
http://www.michelang...ese INGLESE.pdf

And the site of this Michelangelo:

http://michelangelo....referredLang=uk

I will bet that if this Michelangelo reads about the OLB and that poem by Willem van Haren (about Friso, and the "Land of the Alans" which was the original name of Frisia), he will put some of those signs in the Netherlands too !

++

Oh, I forgot: you know what those Alans loved to wear? A Phrygian cap/hat... heh.


.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 29 April 2011 - 06:52 PM.


#4519    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,109 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005

Posted 29 April 2011 - 08:23 PM

I have repeatedly said that Joost Halbertsma - one of the main suspects of creating the OLB in the 19th century - had analyzed this poem by Willem van Haren), and here it is (from 1829):

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

It's from his work about the Van Haren family:

LINK

....and those who are able to read it, I advice you to download it as PDF (12.9 MB)

For those who don't speak/read Dutch, alas, it is written using 19th century Dutch spelling, so Google Translator or BableFish will not give you an understandable translation (a help will be that the -f- at the start of some words is actually an -s-).

But even those who are able to read it will be bored to death, like Otharus already said.

So scroll down to page 145 (using the original numbering of the book, not the pdf page numbers).

But beware: you will have to wade though a truelly boooooring analyses, and French, Greek, and Latin texts, and whatnot.

Bezum, Otharus, McKay, and Alewyn, and all those other people who are able to read Dutch, or are Dutch, please tell me: what is your impression of this guy Halbertsma?

I could also show you his letters to Grimm so you would understand how fanatic this guy was about anything Frisian (language, history, legends, and so on).

Just consider this: he was called "Mister Fryslan".

He went to very great lenghts to put Friesland and Frisian heritage on the world map. He was in contact with German, Danish, and English and other linguists and historians, and did his utter best to promote Friesland.

I am addicted to nicotine and ethanol, he was addicted to anything Frisian.

His brother invented a national anthem for the Frisians.

If there was anyone motivated to create a manuscript like the OLB, or be the inspirator of it, then it was Halbertsma.

So don't come to me, and say, "Goffe Jensma said this and that" (about Haverschmidt). I think he is very wrong.

+++

And I hope that those following this thread will remember I once quoted from a Dutch PDF about this Halbertsma, that he was able to translate foreign ( =non-Frisian) legends/sagas/fairy tales into Frisian in a way that caused many Frisians to be convinced it were authentic Frisian legends.

(Note: one of the main reasons I love this site is that I can edit my posts till my eyes pop out and my fingertips turn blue, LOL!!)





.

Edited by Abramelin, 29 April 2011 - 08:54 PM.


#4520    The Puzzler

The Puzzler

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,620 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2007

Posted 30 April 2011 - 02:30 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 29 April 2011 - 06:26 PM, said:

Puzz, I never suggested the Yazh sign of the Berber was a (Nordic) rune sign.

But I did find what I was looking for, although there are many who think the next guy is fair game, lol.

OK, for starters, a pic (copied from the pdf):

Posted Image


The pdf (with all the 6-spoked wheels you ever encountered on the web):

SHORT HISTORY OF THE “SUN OF THE ALPS” / THE HUNGARIAN ALANS IN AFRICA
http://www.michelang...ese INGLESE.pdf

And the site of this Michelangelo:

http://michelangelo....referredLang=uk

I will bet that if this Michelangelo reads about the OLB and that poem by Willem van Haren (about Friso, and the "Land of the Alans" which was the original name of Frisia), he will put some of those signs in the Netherlands too !

++

Oh, I forgot: you know what those Alans loved to wear? A Phrygian cap/hat... heh.


.

.
I never said YOU suggested it. I suggested it after I read how it wasn't related.

If the symbol is the life force - it really makes sense it would be converted to 18 anyway.

18 is such a divisable number that makes symbolic numbers. 3 x 6 or 2 x 9 or 2 x 18 = 36 hrs or 4 x 18 is 72.

Note also the signs of Wralda are just that - they are 3 circles of 6 pieces each = 18


I'll do a new post in relation to the continuing Alans saga.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#4521    The Puzzler

The Puzzler

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,620 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2007

Posted 30 April 2011 - 04:34 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 29 April 2011 - 06:26 PM, said:

Puzz, I never suggested the Yazh sign of the Berber was a (Nordic) rune sign.

But I did find what I was looking for, although there are many who think the next guy is fair game, lol.

OK, for starters, a pic (copied from the pdf):

Posted Image


The pdf (with all the 6-spoked wheels you ever encountered on the web):

SHORT HISTORY OF THE “SUN OF THE ALPS” / THE HUNGARIAN ALANS IN AFRICA
http://www.michelang...ese INGLESE.pdf

And the site of this Michelangelo:

http://michelangelo....referredLang=uk

I will bet that if this Michelangelo reads about the OLB and that poem by Willem van Haren (about Friso, and the "Land of the Alans" which was the original name of Frisia), he will put some of those signs in the Netherlands too !

++

Oh, I forgot: you know what those Alans loved to wear? A Phrygian cap/hat... heh.


.

.
They made a much earlier entrance into Libya than 300BC, the Alans are just a new wave of Iranian Aryan people to arrive in Libya.

You might see that the earliest symbol shown there in the pdf is from the Vinca culture - I showed a connection between the Tartaria tablets, a similar variation of people and Crete - I'm pretty sure that Minoan Crete may have had influx of people of Romania and Hungary. Then we see at Akrotiri like I said connection to Africa.

I would estimate the first wave of Aryans into Libya would have been around 2000-1800BC. It's probably where the evacuees took off to when they knew Thera was to erupt. Maybe even Troy was settled the same way.

The symbol is in Egypt c.1290BC.

These people were Scythians and the ancient tales of Scythians into Egypt could come from this.

If the Alans held all the ancient history of when they were Scythians and Massagetae Arians and how some of them became Persian they could pass this history on to their descendants as their own. Is this what you're getting at?

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#4522    The Puzzler

The Puzzler

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,620 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2007

Posted 30 April 2011 - 04:50 AM

So, I thought, I wonder if these Magyar of Hungary were actually Magi - then the Magi would be the Magyar who would be Magi (who I suppose are the Magyar of the OLB)

Hungarian tradition also traces pre-European Magyar (Hungarian) ancestry back to the Magi. In time, the Sumerian-influenced religion of the Magi was suppressed in favour of a more purely Iranian form of Zoroastrianism, itself evolved from its somewhat dualist beginnings into the monotheistic faith that it is today (also known as Parsi-ism).
http://www.taroscope...ages/medes.html

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#4523    Soul Kitchen

Soul Kitchen

    El Lobo

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,990 posts
  • Joined:27 Dec 2010

Posted 30 April 2011 - 06:29 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 30 April 2011 - 04:50 AM, said:

So, I thought, I wonder if these Magyar of Hungary were actually Magi - then the Magi would be the Magyar who would be Magi (who I suppose are the Magyar of the OLB)

Hungarian tradition also traces pre-European Magyar (Hungarian) ancestry back to the Magi. In time, the Sumerian-influenced religion of the Magi was suppressed in favour of a more purely Iranian form of Zoroastrianism, itself evolved from its somewhat dualist beginnings into the monotheistic faith that it is today (also known as Parsi-ism).
http://www.taroscope...ages/medes.html
Zoroastrianism!!! I never thought I'd actually hear that come up as something relevant to the discussion! I only know of it because of its connection to that "Thus Spake Zaestruthra" piece that was part of the 2001 space odyssey soundtrack.
You know, the one that goes
duuuuun
duuuuuun
duuuuuuuun
DUN DUN
dundun dundun dundun dundun
Duuuun
Duuuun
Duuuuun
DUUN DUUN
and the monkey hits the bone and the bone goes into space and turns metaphorically into a space ship, you remember!

Life is too short to waste on responsibilities. :)

#4524    The Puzzler

The Puzzler

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,620 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2007

Posted 30 April 2011 - 10:41 AM

The Asha - the asa - the truth - another word for asa. Azi was fire - azer

Herodotus, in his mid-5th century B.C.E. account of Persian residents of the Pontus, reports that Persian youths, from their fifth year to their twentieth year, were instructed in three things – to ride a horse, to draw a bow, and to speak the Truth.[61]

He further notes that:[61]

the most disgraceful thing in the world [the Perses] think, is to tell a lie; the next worst, to owe a debt: because, among other reasons, the debtor is obliged to tell lies.
In Achaemenid Persia, the lie, druj, is considered to be a cardinal sin, and it was punishable by death in some extreme cases. Tablets discovered by archaeologists in the 1930s[62] at the site of Persepolis give us adequate evidence about the love and veneration for the culture of truth during the Achaemenian period. These tablets contain the names of ordinary Persians, mainly traders and warehouse-keepers.[63] According to Professor Stanley Insler of Yale University, as many as 72 names of officials and petty clerks found on these tablets contain the word truth.[64] Thus, says Insler, we have Artapana, protector of truth, Artakama, lover of truth, Artamanah, truth-minded, Artafarnah, possessing splendour of truth, Artazusta, delighting in truth, Artastuna, pillar of truth, Artafrida, prospering the truth and Artahunara, having nobility of truth. It was Darius the Great, who laid down the ordinance of good regulations during his reign. King Darius' testimony about his constant battle against the lie is found in cuneiform inscriptions. Carved high up in the Behistun mountain on the road to Kermanshah, Darius the Great (Darius I) testifies:[65]

I was not a lie-follower, I was not a doer of wrong ... According to righteousness I conducted myself. Neither to the weak or to the powerful did I do wrong. The man who cooperated with my house, him I rewarded well; who so did injury, him I punished well.
Darius had his hands full dealing with large-scale rebellion which broke out throughout the empire. After fighting successfully with nine traitors in a year, Darius records his battles against them for posterity and tells us how it was the lie that made them rebel against the empire. At Behistun, Darius says:

I smote them and took prisoner nine kings. One was Gaumata by name, a Magian; he lied; thus he said: I am Smerdis, the son of Cyrus...One, Acina by name, an Elamite; he lied; thus he said: I am king in Elam... One, Nidintu-Bel by name, a Babylonian; he lied; thus he said: I am Nebuchadnezzar, the son of Nabonidus. King Darius then tells us, The Lie made them rebellious, so that these men deceived the people.[66]
Then an advice to his son Xerxes, who is to succeed him as the great king:

Thou who shalt be king hereafter, protect yourself vigorously from the Lie; the man who shall be a lie-follower, him do thou punish well, if thus thou shall think. May my country be secure!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%C5%A1a

The Magi did try a coup on Persia.

The truth is the asa/asha. It was what Persians were all about - truth frees - isn't that Otharus signature - it does - see, truth frees, liberati veritos!!

The people of the truth, who did not lie, could find freedom, through truth - maybe the life force too, the fire - the azi.

Fire is the physical creation that is the domain of Aša and in which the Amesha Spenta of "Best Truth" (Asha Vahishta) is immanent. Fire is "grandly conceived as a force informing all the other Amesha Spentas, giving them warmth and the spark of life."


Subject to context, aša/arta- is also frequently translated as "right working" or "[that which is] right". The word then (cf. Bartholomae's[15] and Geldner's[16] translations as German language "Recht") has the same range of meaning of "right" as in the English language: truth, righteousness, rightfulness, lawfullness, conformity, accord, order (cosmic order, social order, moral order).

These various meanings of "right" are frequently combined, for instance as "the inexorable law of righteousness,"[17] or as "the eternal fitness of things that are in accord with the divine order."[18]

As (the hypostasis of) regularity and "right working", aša/arta- is present when Ahura Mazda fixed the course of the sun, the moon and the stars (Yasna 44.3), and it is through aša that plants grow



RIGHT hand of God. Persians - Aryans.

So, the symbol of truth, freedom and knowing that which is right, combined with an element of fire, a life force - which is what I think the Azi is in Imazighen. Hence that is what the symbol means tattooed on the Berber girls head imo.

------------

In Zoroastrian cosmogony and cosmology, which—though alluded to in the Gathas—is only systematically described in Zoroastrian tradition (e.g. Bundahishn 3.12), aša is the second (cf. Yasna 47.1) of the six primeval creations realized ("created by His thought") by Ahura Mazda. It is through these six, the Amesha Spentas that all subsequent creation was accomplished.


Asa (truth is fire and it frees the soul) Cremation is probably very Persian - it would free you from any sin, purify you even and free your soul.

So, generally, all this asa, azi, azer and so forth in the area of Azerbaijan is relative to this concept imo.

Yes, the 6 spokes might be part of this equation.
It all sounds very much like the Persians followed a Wralda/Fryan thought, especially in regards to slavery...

The practice of slavery in Achaemenid Persia was generally banned, although there is evidence that conquered and/or rebellious armies were sold into captivity.[46] Zoroastrianism, the de facto religion of the empire, explicitly forbids slavery,[47] and the kings of Achaemenid Persia, especially the founder Cyrus the Great, followed this ban to varying degrees, as evidenced by the freeing of the Jews at Babylon, and the construction of Persepolis by paid workers.

The vexilloid of the Achaemenid Empire was a gold falcon on a field of crimson.[48][49]

The Achaemenid empire left a lasting impression on the heritage, and the cultural identity of Asia and Middleast as well as influencing the development, and structure of the future empires. In fact the Greeks and later on the Romans copied the best features of the Persian method of governing the empire, and vicariously adopted them.[50]

Georg W. F. Hegel in his work "The Philosophy of History" introduces the Persian Empire as the first empire that passed away and its people as the first historical people in history. According to his account;[51]

"The Persian Empire is an Empire in the modern sense – like that which existed in Germany, and the great imperial realm under the sway of Napoleon; for we find it consisting of a number of states, which are indeed dependant, but which have retained their own individuality, their manners, and laws. The general enactments, binding upon all, did not infringe upon their political and social idiosyncrasies, but even protected and maintained them; so that each of the nations that constitute the whole, had its own form of constitution. As light illuminates everything – imparting to each object a peculiar vitality – so the Persian Empire extends over a multitude of nations, and leaves to each one its particular character. Some have even kings of their own; each one its distinct language, arms, way of life and customs. All this diversity coexists harmoniously under the impartial dominion of Light... a combination of peoples – leaving each of them free. Thereby, a stop is put to that barbarism and ferocity with which the nations had been wont to carry on their destructive feuds.”
The famous American orientalist, Professor Arthur Upham Pope (1881–1969) says:[52] “The western world has a vast unpaid debt to the Persian civilization!”

In Yasna 37.1, in a list of what are otherwise all physical creations, aša takes the place of fire.

--------

The Alans could have taken a 300BC version of this concept into Libya and the Berbers took it on but it appears to me to be a more ancient concept than that in Libya.

Arta is proto-Indo-Iranian




aza/asa/azer may transfer to aja or ija in Slavic because I know their fire Goddess is Gabija


ija is getting nearer to Freya or Freja

Frya may actually be the asha - the truth, the Light = freedom - the fire - frya - to fry ie; heat over fire.

Her heat stuff was moderate - medium - level - smoth - even.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#4525    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,109 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005

Posted 30 April 2011 - 11:59 AM

Let's not go too far into another ally again.

I started about the Alans because of the 18th century poem by Willem van Haren, a poem critically analyzed by Joost Halbertsma, one of the possible suspects of creating/inspirating the OLB.

OK, and then I read this Dutch poem, and read that the original name for Frisia was "Land der Alanen" or Land of the Alans. That they were landlubbers, that they were poor people, not very developed, and originally came from an arid area in the far east. That they were Zoroastrians... well, the rest you know.

But what I never told you, or anyone else here, is that I also read (either by him or by Halbertsma) that he sometimes changed a personal name to make it fit better into his epic poem. So everytime I found something about these Alans, I kept thinking that maybe it was nothing but another wild goose chase, based on a just a name.

Willem van Haren based his poem on older Frisian sources (Hamconius, Scharlensis), and I know I posted a pdf which mentioned 8th century old Saxon sources on which these sources in their turn were based.

It was Otharus who waded through that pdf, and posted he found these 8th century Saxon sources. I can try to find the pdf again, but it will take some time.

The thing is this: Van Haren created a poem based on older Frisian sources. The sources mention a legend about Friso coming from India and going to the North Sea and establishing a kingdom there. But... other Frisian sources from the same time tell us Friso and his brothers came from Jerusalem, and descended from Shem/Noah... (google Frisia/Zebulon, and you will end up on a Christian site, britam.com that I posted about, a site copied throughout the internet by Bible/Christian sites  http://www.britam.org/zebulon.html ).

The Frisians wanted to create an ancient myth of origin, one starting in India/Persia, another in Jerusalem, and in their turn they stole/borrowed from even older, Saxon myths. From what I read these Saxon myths tell us the Saxons/Germans came from Troy, where they fought alongside the Troyans.

What struck me about the Alans is that they were pretty much everywhere (from China to Western Europe and Northern Africa), were a force to be reckoned with, settled all over Eurasia, and were (very probably) Zoroastrians before they were Christianized. They may even have been the source for the Arthurian legends (because they venerated a sacred sword stuck in a rock, and because they had settled en masse in Brittanny, France, and also crossed the Channel to settle in England and Scotland, and stood at the base of the later knights.

Then I found out - first through that 'Balder' site and then through that site from a Michelangelo - that they used a 6-spoked wheel like the Yule Wheel from the Frya people of the OLB, and a symbol (symbolizing a man, arms/head up, 3 lower members down) that was the same as the Yazh symbol of the Berber people, meaning "Free men" (Yazh or similar names under which the Alans were also very known).

Now what I want to know is what these older Saxon sources had to say about these Alans. What is known by Greek and Roman sources is that the Alans were feared and respected, had blond hair and blue eyes, were nomads for much of their time, lived on horseback, that they were a Sarmatian tribe, and so on. Btw, Herodotus says the Sarmatians descended from a mix of Scythians and Amazons, resulting in a tribe. the Sarmatians, where women and men had equal roles (the women fought along with the men) and rights.

So, if I am able to find some of these older, 8th century, sources, then I may be able to find out why the much later Frisian historiographers created their Friso myths, and why the again later Willem van Haren incorporated the Alans into his epic poem about the history of Frisia/Friesland.

And finally, what inspired 19th century people to write the Oera Linda Book.... in which everything the former Frisian historiographers wrote was turned upside down, and made the (ancient) Frisians stand out even more.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 30 April 2011 - 12:55 PM.


#4526    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,109 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005

Posted 30 April 2011 - 12:30 PM

A few extra notes:

Like I have said many times, I disagree with Jensma about Haverschmidt being the one who created the OLB (with a couple of buddies).

I think it's Halbertsma, because he had a wealth of knowledge about Frisia, the Frisian language and legends/myths, spoke many languages, and was in contact with many European historians and linguists, but was in closest contact with Jakob Grimm who wrote tomes about linguistics and German/Teutonic/Saxon myths and fairy tales.

Otharus wondered why a respectable man like Joost Halbertsma would do such a thing. Well, it may never have been his intention to fool people by creating a hoax, he may just have written it (or part of it) as an exercise in what he thought was really ancient Frisian (based on the 13th century Rüstringer dialect spiced up with many words he created himself to make it look even older). Someone else may have gotten hold of his 'exercition in old languages' and created the hoax/fantasy (in an invented rune-like script) we now know as the OLB.

==

Something else: the Fryans of the OLB on one side, and the Magyar of the OLB on the other side were enemies.

Heh, if you read what many Hungarians nowadays write about their (alternative) history, then I think that if you put Frisian believers in the OLB and these Hungarians/Magyar in one room, then soon you will hear them yelling and cursing at eachother from a mile away, and at the end blood will flow.

Both these Frisians and Magyar claim to be the oldest people in Europe. The Magyar claim their language, script and culture did spread out over ancient Europe, and that they were there many thousands of years before (even before the time the OLB says they were) we nowadays think they were (that's from the time of Attila and the Huns).

Edited by Abramelin, 30 April 2011 - 12:52 PM.


#4527    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,109 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005

Posted 30 April 2011 - 01:39 PM

Heh, ok, I said not to wander into yet another alley again, but let me just dump this:


The name for the Berber 'Freemen" symbol, the 'yazh', and the alternative but very well known name for the Alans, anything with Yazh/As made me think of something...

If the Alans were Zoroastrian and an Iranian tribe, then they can also be found here (and not only as the Christanized Ossetians in the Caucasus):

an 'excellent' site about the Yezidis   :innocent:

Their 'symbol':
Posted Image


A bit more:

The Yaz culture is an early Iron Age culture of Bactria and Margiana (ca. 1500-1100 BC). It has been regarded as a likely archaeological reflection of early East Iranian culture as described in the Avesta. So far, no burials related to the culture have been found, and this was taken as evidence of the Zoroastrian practice of exposure or so-called sky burial.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Yaz_culture


Yazd (pronounced /jæzd/) (In Persian: یزد), is the capital of Yazd Province in Iran, and a centre of Zoroastrian culture. The city is located some 175 miles southeast of Isfahan.

The city has a history of over 3,000 years, dating back to the time of the Median empire, when it was known as Ysatis (or Issatis). The present city name has however been derived from Yazdegerd I, a Sassanid ruler. The city was definitely a Zoroastrian centre during Sassanid times. After the Arab Islamic conquest of Persia, many Zoroastrians fled to Yazd from neighbouring provinces. The city remained Zoroastrian even after the conquest by paying a levy, and only gradually did Islam come to be the dominant religion in the city.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazd

.

Edited by Abramelin, 30 April 2011 - 01:51 PM.


#4528    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,109 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005

Posted 30 April 2011 - 03:21 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 30 April 2011 - 01:39 PM, said:

Heh, ok, I said not to wander into yet another alley again, but let me just dump this:


The name for the Berber 'Freemen" symbol, the 'yazh', and the alternative but very well known name for the Alans, anything with Yazh/As made me think of something...

If the Alans were Zoroastrian and an Iranian tribe, then they can also be found here (and not only as the Christanized Ossetians in the Caucasus):

an 'excellent' site about the Yezidis   :innocent:

Their 'symbol':
Posted Image


A bit more:

The Yaz culture is an early Iron Age culture of Bactria and Margiana (ca. 1500-1100 BC). It has been regarded as a likely archaeological reflection of early East Iranian culture as described in the Avesta. So far, no burials related to the culture have been found, and this was taken as evidence of the Zoroastrian practice of exposure or so-called sky burial.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Yaz_culture


Yazd (pronounced /jæzd/) (In Persian: یزد), is the capital of Yazd Province in Iran, and a centre of Zoroastrian culture. The city is located some 175 miles southeast of Isfahan.

The city has a history of over 3,000 years, dating back to the time of the Median empire, when it was known as Ysatis (or Issatis). The present city name has however been derived from Yazdegerd I, a Sassanid ruler. The city was definitely a Zoroastrian centre during Sassanid times. After the Arab Islamic conquest of Persia, many Zoroastrians fled to Yazd from neighbouring provinces. The city remained Zoroastrian even after the conquest by paying a levy, and only gradually did Islam come to be the dominant religion in the city.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazd

.


Just following leads, "Puzz" style (no offense Puzz, but sometimes it appears to me you shoot with hail, LOL!! But I like it, despite my criticism/ and wine helps a lot):


The Yaz Civilization was related to the "Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex" (BAMAC/ 2200–1700 BC), according to the wiki page about the Yaz culture: http://en.wikipedia....iki/Yaz_culture

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMAC

The "Anau tablet" :
Posted Image

http://www.flavinsco...com/8-10-01.htm

Now aint that great, eh? That Berber "Freemen"/Yazh symbol is of really ancient heritage, and is related to something with "God" or Papa, lol.


The Berber symbol:
Posted Image

The idea is of course, that this abstract symbol of a male human (a god, a 'Papa' = father-god?) developed into a six-spoked wheel, as used by the Fryan people (the Yule wheel of the Oera Linda Book), and after the Alans (who also venerated/carried a 6-spoked wheel symbol).

Posted Image

Another crazy idea: were these Yazh guys, the Alans, here in western Europe millennia before the accepted date of the first centuries AD??

If that is true, you might have some kind of proof of the OLB.



.

Edited by Abramelin, 30 April 2011 - 04:15 PM.


#4529    The Puzzler

The Puzzler

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,620 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2007

Posted 30 April 2011 - 04:36 PM

Maybe you missed this part:

Hungarian tradition also traces pre-European Magyar (Hungarian) ancestry back to the Magi. In time, the Sumerian-influenced religion of the Magi was suppressed in favour of a more purely Iranian form of Zoroastrianism, itself evolved from its somewhat dualist beginnings into the monotheistic faith that it is today (also known as Parsi-ism).
http://www.taroscope...ages/medes.html

Magyar ancestry back to the Magi.

The Magi become the Magyar...maybe.

What did happen to those Chaldeans and Magi, they just popped out of sight and out of history after their visit to Bethlehem....?

-------------

asaland = land of fire - Azer Land - land of the aesir - metal and fire to melt the hard metals. Iron - the Alans - the Yranians - they used an I.

So, Iron can mean aser - the term aser is hard metal that needs fire to use it - iron.

Irons, Yranians, Arians, Aryans probably mean aser since aser is iron when translated.

Azer that is, fire makes iron.

The Aesir Gods of Asaland - the metalsmiths of the land of Fire - Azer (Azerbaijan area).

Dragons breathe fire.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#4530    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,109 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005

Posted 30 April 2011 - 04:41 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 30 April 2011 - 04:36 PM, said:

Maybe you missed this part:

Hungarian tradition also traces pre-European Magyar (Hungarian) ancestry back to the Magi. In time, the Sumerian-influenced religion of the Magi was suppressed in favour of a more purely Iranian form of Zoroastrianism, itself evolved from its somewhat dualist beginnings into the monotheistic faith that it is today (also known as Parsi-ism).
http://www.taroscope...ages/medes.html

Magyar ancestry back to the Magi.

The Magi become the Magyar...maybe.

What did happen to those Chaldeans and Magi, they just popped out of sight and out of history after their visit to Bethlehem....?

-------------

asaland = land of fire - Azer Land - land of the aesir - metal and fire to melt the hard metals. Iron - the Alans - the Yranians - they used an I.

So, Iron can mean aser - the term aser is hard metal that needs fire to use it - iron.

Irons, Yranians, Arians, Aryans probably mean aser since aser is iron when translated.

Azer that is, fire makes iron.

The Aesir Gods of Asaland - the metalsmiths of the land of Fire - Azer (Azerbaijan area).

Dragons breathe fire.

No, I didnt miss it, but you missed about everything I posted.

**** happens, people's attention tends to wander off, people are getting tired of wading through huge posts, people will quit as soon as they have to read too much.

And that is why this thread has grown to more than a 300 pages.