107 replies to this topic

[Br Cornelius]

Cradle of Fish, on 25 September 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

Frankly the Christian/Muslim discourse sounds like a broken record. We are the religion of peace, you are the religion of war etcetera.

Take the same level of scrutiny to your own religion that you do to others for once. Also consider the fact that if you were born in the opposite part of the world you probably would be an adherrent and apologist for their religion.

Exactly and well said.

Br Cornelius

[Br Cornelius]

and then, on 25 September 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

I do take such scrutiny, often.  I have even shared that I would be just as devout a Muslim as I am a Christian if I had been born in an Islamic country.  At least until I heard the gospel message.  The fact you are bored of the discussion doesn't make it go away.  One clue as to which argument might make more sense to a civilized person is that when you criticize Christianity there is deafening silence.  Try it with Islam - just avoid doing it in an Islamic country if you want to continue breathing.  Pretty stark difference there....

The only difference is that time has mellowed the Christian extremists. Time is a great healer of all ignorance and I certainly have confidence that Islam will mellow with age and creeping secularism. the reality of what has happened across the Middle East will take a long time to play out - but it will inevitably see a more liberal form of Islam come into force over the next few decades. The best thing we can do is keep out of their affairs and let them work it out for themselves.

Br Cornelius

[and then]

Br Cornelius, on 25 September 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

The only difference is that time has mellowed the Christian extremists. Time is a great healer of all ignorance and I certainly have confidence that Islam will mellow with age and creeping secularism. the reality of what has happened across the Middle East will take a long time to play out - but it will inevitably see a more liberal form of Islam come into force over the next few decades. The best thing we can do is keep out of their affairs and let them work it out for themselves.

Br Cornelius

Since I believe that all human beings basically strive for the same imperatives in this life, I agree with you.  My problem is that Islam has codified in a clear way the need to subjugate non Muslims.  While time will soften and blunt such forces it is exactly this ticking clock that is our enemy.  IOW's we don't have enough time to wait for the transition to occur considering the types of weapons available today as well as the confluence of social and economic stresses on these populations.  If we change enough to mollify them then they view us as weak and push even harder.  If we stand and fight it gives them even more energy to continue in their path.  It's like being followed and harried by a wild dog or something - and NO I do not think of Muslims as dogs.  The problem, it seems to me, is that they will not allow us to just stay out of their way.  THEY are initiating and perpetuating the conflicts.  Iran  for example could defuse the entire issue with Israel by retracting some of their more bellicose statements and agreeing to allow inspectors at Parchin IF they really are not pursuing a nuke.  The Palestinians could place ENORMOUS pressure on Israel and the West by a concentrated peace and non violence protest like MLK or Ghandi did.  Not just a settlement here or there but a widespread movement across the country.  I think the reason it doesn't happen is that they have placed all their bets on Islam to fix the problem and Islam's solution has nothing whatever to do with peaceful resolution.

[Hasina]

and then, on 25 September 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

I do take such scrutiny, often.  I have even shared that I would be just as devout a Muslim as I am a Christian if I had been born in an Islamic country.  At least until I heard the gospel message. The fact you are bored of the discussion doesn't make it go away.  One clue as to which argument might make more sense to a civilized person is that when you criticize Christianity there is deafening silence.  Try it with Islam - just avoid doing it in an Islamic country if you want to continue breathing.  Pretty stark difference there....

That's not being a devout Muslim, you just think you'd be swayed by the Gospel.

Christians now wage their wars through political fronts, trying to reign people into their beliefs with their own twisted way of laying out laws that everyone should follow. I see it here in the US all the bloody time, especially here in Texas and the neighboring state Louisiana.

[the L]

Hasina, on 25 September 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

That's not being a devout Muslim, you just think you'd be swayed by the Gospel.

Christians now wage their wars through political fronts, trying to reign people into their beliefs with their own twisted way of laying out laws that everyone should follow. I see it here in the US all the bloody time, especially here in Texas and the neighboring state Louisiana.

Christians is wide term.
According to the American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS), those who identify themselves as Catholics make up about 25% of the adult population, while "other Christians" account for another 51%.
http://en.wikipedia....e_United_States

Those "other Christians" are half (my estemation) used as paravans for making people into "army of zombies who would kill for Christ" as Engdahl said.

[and then]

Hasina, on 25 September 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

That's not being a devout Muslim, you just think you'd be swayed by the Gospel.

Christians now wage their wars through political fronts, trying to reign people into their beliefs with their own twisted way of laying out laws that everyone should follow. I see it here in the US all the bloody time, especially here in Texas and the neighboring state Louisiana.

My point is that I believe that a person who is inclined to have faith in something unseen would be as apt to do so for Islam as Christianity.  Being Christian and believing in the message of Christ I am of course biased and believe it is an undeniable truth that would sway me but I could be wrong.  The fact that Christians use political voices instead of RPG's is an important distinction, wouldn't you agree?  Ultimately no one is forced into behaving in a way dictated by the morals of Christianity.  At worst, one is bothered by conscience.

[Hasina]

and then, on 25 September 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

My point is that I believe that a person who is inclined to have faith in something unseen would be as apt to do so for Islam as Christianity.  Being Christian and believing in the message of Christ I am of course biased and believe it is an undeniable truth that would sway me but I could be wrong.  The fact that Christians use political voices instead of RPG's is an important distinction, wouldn't you agree?  Ultimately no one is forced into behaving in a way dictated by the morals of Christianity.  At worst, one is bothered by conscience.

Yes, killing people is wrong, but so is subverting others rights because you believe them to be wrong. In many countries, it's survival they have to worry about, here in the US, we do too but to a lesser extreme. When you have 'let's teach stories in science class', 'stop people of different sexual orientations from marrying', 'take away a woman's right to do what she want's with her body', then you're going a bit too far.

Edited by Hasina, 25 September 2012 - 08:11 PM.

[Yamato]

Hasina, on 25 September 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

Yes, killing people is wrong, but so is subverting others rights because you believe them to be wrong. In many countries, it's survival they have to worry about, here in the US, we do too but to a lesser extreme. When you have 'let's teach stories in science class', 'stop people of different sexual orientations from marrying', 'take away a woman's right to do what she want's with her body', then you're going a bit too far.

I agree government should stay out of our bedrooms and marriages and it should also stay out of our kitchens, our bathrooms, our garages, our living rooms and our gun cabinets.   If you can apply a single consistent standard like that with me, beyond what your personal opinions are about any of those many intrusions into our lives, then we're both libertarians and can agree on principle.  Whether political pressure comes from within religious organizations or without, it doesn't matter.  The principle remains the same, keep the blasted government out.

[Hasina]

Yamato, on 25 September 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:

I agree government should stay out of our bedrooms and marriages and it should also stay out of our kitchens, our bathrooms, our garages, our living rooms and our gun cabinets.   If you can apply a single consistent standard like that with me, beyond what your personal opinions are about any of those many intrusions into our lives, then we're both libertarians and can agree on principle.  Whether political pressure comes from within religious organizations or without, it doesn't matter.  The principle remains the same, keep the blasted government out.

I whole heartedly agree, religious or not, the government itself needs to stay out of our daily lives.

Edited by Hasina, 25 September 2012 - 08:25 PM.

[Br Cornelius]

and then, on 25 September 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

Since I believe that all human beings basically strive for the same imperatives in this life, I agree with you.  My problem is that Islam has codified in a clear way the need to subjugate non Muslims.  While time will soften and blunt such forces it is exactly this ticking clock that is our enemy.  IOW's we don't have enough time to wait for the transition to occur considering the types of weapons available today as well as the confluence of social and economic stresses on these populations.  If we change enough to mollify them then they view us as weak and push even harder.  If we stand and fight it gives them even more energy to continue in their path.  It's like being followed and harried by a wild dog or something - and NO I do not think of Muslims as dogs.  The problem, it seems to me, is that they will not allow us to just stay out of their way.  THEY are initiating and perpetuating the conflicts.  Iran  for example could defuse the entire issue with Israel by retracting some of their more bellicose statements and agreeing to allow inspectors at Parchin IF they really are not pursuing a nuke.  The Palestinians could place ENORMOUS pressure on Israel and the West by a concentrated peace and non violence protest like MLK or Ghandi did.  Not just a settlement here or there but a widespread movement across the country.  I think the reason it doesn't happen is that they have placed all their bets on Islam to fix the problem and Islam's solution has nothing whatever to do with peaceful resolution.

It is not the Muslim countries which have invaded America or Europe - it is the other way round. Any impartial analysis would consider us the greatest threat to peace and the one which has aggressively subjugated another faith. Your logic is so biased that you cannot see that we live in a world of propaganda where actions are justified before and after the event by rhetoric. this is what is happening with the rabble rousing against Iran - and it is what America and Israel have been doing for the last 30 yrs.
The crisis in the Middle East is at least partly a direct consequence of Western Imperialism in that sphere - with the objective of exploiting the oil and mineral wealth of those countries.

Br Cornelius

[and then]

Hasina, on 25 September 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

Yes, killing people is wrong, but so is subverting others rights because you believe them to be wrong. In many countries, it's survival they have to worry about, here in the US, we do too but to a lesser extreme. When you have 'let's teach stories in science class', 'stop people of different sexual orientations from marrying', 'take away a woman's right to do what she want's with her body', then you're going a bit too far.

The country we live in allows a diversity of opinion and belief.  There are communities where those "stories in science class"  and the other things you've mentioned are not considered inappropriate.  While their views may well seem offensive to those of other communities, they still have a right to their own world view.  I guess I don't understand why those who believe as you do have a better case for acceptance of their ideas than the other group I mentioned.  I also do not see widespread compulsion in any area of our country - just a fear that it might happen.

[Hasina]

and then, on 25 September 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

The country we live in allows a diversity of opinion and belief.  There are communities where those "stories in science class"  and the other things you've mentioned are not considered inappropriate.  While their views may well seem offensive to those of other communities, they still have a right to their own world view.  I guess I don't understand why those who believe as you do have a better case for acceptance of their ideas than the other group I mentioned.  I also do not see widespread compulsion in any area of our country - just a fear that it might happen.

I won't turn this into another creationist-evolutionist argument thread, but these beliefs, these 'world views', have no grounding in science.

[Br Cornelius]

Hasina, on 25 September 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

I won't turn this into another creationist-evolutionist argument thread, but these beliefs, these 'world views', have no grounding in science.

They should be taught where they are relevant in RE class - not in Biology where they are a denial of the evidence.

Br Cornelius

[Cradle of Fish]

and then, on 25 September 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

I do take such scrutiny, often.  I have even shared that I would be just as devout a Muslim as I am a Christian if I had been born in an Islamic country.  At least until I heard the gospel message.  The fact you are bored of the discussion doesn't make it go away.  One clue as to which argument might make more sense to a civilized person is that when you criticize Christianity there is deafening silence.  Try it with Islam - just avoid doing it in an Islamic country if you want to continue breathing.  Pretty stark difference there....

Actually there are blasphemy laws in Christian countries as well. A lot of people take their religion for what it is - a personal relationship with their deities. Some people are loud mouth jerkwads. All you need is somebody to stir them up and extremist clerics love to do that. Of course they're never the ones fighting the jihad or suicide bombing civilian targets - leave that to the angry and impressionable youth.

From a western point of view Iranians have a lot to be angry about - theocracy, corruption, and now the looming threat of war with Israel. Do you think the average Israeli and Iranian hate each other? If so, do you think it is due to legitimate reasons or the scapegoating undertaken by their leaders?

People in civilized societies really don't have anything to hate, but they're still made to be hateful towards somebody because it distracts them from the abuses of the rulers.

I have a question for all posters on both sides of the argument. Is your ire over this issue worth it?

[and then]

Cradle of Fish, on 25 September 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

Actually there are blasphemy laws in Christian countries as well. A lot of people take their religion for what it is - a personal relationship with their deities. Some people are loud mouth jerkwads. All you need is somebody to stir them up and extremist clerics love to do that. Of course they're never the ones fighting the jihad or suicide bombing civilian targets - leave that to the angry and impressionable youth.

From a western point of view Iranians have a lot to be angry about - theocracy, corruption, and now the looming threat of war with Israel. Do you think the average Israeli and Iranian hate each other? If so, do you think it is due to legitimate reasons or the scapegoating undertaken by their leaders?

People in civilized societies really don't have anything to hate, but they're still made to be hateful towards somebody because it distracts them from the abuses of the rulers.

I have a question for all posters on both sides of the argument. Is your ire over this issue worth it?

I'm not sure of the question?  Do you mean is an attack on Iran's sites to delay a nuclear device worth the death and destruction it will certainly cause?  My answer would be yes.  But that doesn't mean I will enjoy the idea of the suffering or death of innocents.  It means that when someone shows an unmistakable desire to oppress me and my rights to live then I have a right to self defense.  You obviously do not feel that way because you literally live a half world away and don't have a target on your back.  There are some here who actually argue that a country, even one the size of New Jersey, has to wait and absorb a nuclear strike before they can justly engage in self defense.