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Who Wrecked the Balkans


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#31    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 07:46 PM

You’re so kind, odas, but there’s no need to wait for me next time, since we both practice honest approach, I believe it doesn’t matter which one will answer.

Yes, L, some people are ashamed of it. I'm not. Because I was against that suicidal politics then as I am now.
We can't hide anything, truth is sometimes delayed but it gets out sooner or later. And sooner would be better since elections are coming.  



It never was a secret that first Croatian president, Franjo Tuđman, had a deal with Milošević. They agreed to split B&H between Croatia and Serbia.
Tuđman was totally incompetent, hilariously unfit to lead a country and completely unable to foresee consequences of his actions. He wanted to swap people and territories with Milošević, and he wanted population that was more likely to vote for him until the day he croaks. That’s why Vukovar was betrayed in favour of seizing Mostar, for example.
He ordered murders of anyone who was not dancing to his tune (Reichl Kir, Kraljević), or at least removed them from chain of command (old and young Jastrebs of Vukovar). He organized unofficial and illegal but highly efficient and deadly structure to manipulate the development of conflict, remove opposition and generally convince Croats he’s now what Broz used to be in ex-YU – only he wasn’t near Broz, no matter how fancy his uniform was.        
The war between Croats and Bosnian Muslims was necessary to him because he wanted to keep his part of the deal with Milošević. United Croats and Muslims could have actually win over chetniks and JNA, which would put Milošević into completely bad negotiating position, therefore the war would end sooner and there would be no Republika Šumska (humorous nickname for Serbian entity in B&H, that tries to secede and unite with Serbia even now, as we speak).

So, the war between Croats and Muslims broke out because Tuđman didn’t want Croatia and B&H to be free, independent, democratic, friendly neighbouring countries, he wanted to autocratically rule over some mutant Croatian state that would lose Slavonia, gain Herzegovina, lose urban population, gain half-literates, lose non-Croats (even those completely loyal citizens), gain Croats (even those who are maybe Catholic but not Croat at all), lose reputation, gain isolation, lose democracy, gain his freakin’ majesty.
Tuđman was an epic saboteur, in short. Or complete moron. Probably both.
We’ll need another 20 or more years to clear up the mess he created, using murderous evil clowns like Merčep... and approximately 200 years to explain to turbo-Croats (who mostly live outside Croatia) what actually happened back then.

Of course, Tuđman would never think of it all by himself, Gojko Šušak (minister of defence back then) was the puppeteer, only he was puppet of certain foreign agency himself. An agency I won’t name, since I don’t want them to knock on my door at 4 AM. Kidding. It was CIA, naturally, who else. They really did lousy job with ex-Yu, I demand to see their boss!
It was nice of them they helped ex-Yu already crumble down, I was waiting for that to happen since 1985 or so, but did we really had to have a war? Huh?
I understand it was interesting to watch small scale USSR model of dissipation in action, but since USSR died quietly it all now looks kind of... futile. A lot of people died for that futility.

Now the ustasha issue.
War is – obviously – paradise for psychos.
I won’t get into details, I just have to repeat for one more time that every side had its innocent victims and its criminals.
There are many things impossible to forget.
It’s natural that people who were divided and in armed conflict, fought in very morbid way sometimes, are distrustful toward each other. It was only few years, but they seemed longer than lifetime.
I’ve noticed that I don’t see my own life as something whole and continuous, there’s my life before the war and after it. The war itself never ended, it’s still in there, leading its own life in my head. **** it and the one who got the idea to start it first.
When I hear Serbian turbo-folk music, I automatically and uncontrollably start to yell out the most obscene and offensive curses. Therefore, I have no choice but to fully understand a Muslim or a Serb with the same anger management problem.
But this applies only to people directly hit by war. Everyone else, especially youngsters, should be aware that throwing insults around is not patriotism, it’s simply backwardness, mental illness or both.
I don’t want to transfer my frustrations to younger generations, but many parents and grandparents do precisely that.
It’s easier to live with your own shortcomings if you have someone else to blame instead of yourself. That’s where chauvinism comes. It’s that simple.  

Another reason why you were ustasha to folks in Sarajevo is that Croatia is generally perceived as the one who broke Yugoslavia. Which is not true, Yuga broke down because it was rotten inside, Croatia only had crappy luck of having the most of that old, rusty construction fall on her.
But Bosnians were only true Yugoslavs. Everyone else had their own national option and secret desires, only Bosnians were honest about ex-Yu, especially since ex-Yu really did help B&H to develop and actually improved lives of average people.
From Bosnian angle, it really looks like we destroyed the best country ever.

Phew, this was long winded and I’ve just started... :lol:
Kidding, that's it for today.

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#32    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 08:04 PM

You said: "gain Croats (even those who are maybe Catholic but not Croat at all)"

What you mean by that? That there is no Croats in BiH? That they are Bosnian Chatolics? :blink:

And I dindnt get answer to my questions...what was the triggers? Who attack who? Maybe some battles..

You know stuff like that. Good info that you usually represnet to us common mortals... :lol:

However I respect your point of view.

EDIT: Do you know stories about conflicts between HVO and ARMY BIH about some questions before guns start to work?
Is it faith? Money? Oil? Territory?

EDIT: About nick name in Sarajevo- I was so sad because Sarajevo is not what it was. All stories about Sarajevo welcoming very well is changed now. They learn the lession. If I may say so.

That nick name didnt hurt me because I know who Im...Im thinkin that Sarajevo losing itself.

Should I say lines from one song:

Fildžan neću ostavljat. Ako ko naiđe jebi ga.

I will never leave cup of coffe. If someone came f### it.



Thats realy sad. Because Bosnians always , left cup of coffe when they were doing coffe just in case someone unexpectedly came. :cry:
Such a unique customs that you can only find in Bosnia and Herzegovinia.

Edited by the L, 16 June 2011 - 08:23 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#33    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 08:32 PM

No, there are Croats in B&H, I was thinking of Janjevci for example. Not Janjevci that were in Croatia for ages already, but those who were pulled out of Kosovo and thrown in Slavonia for no other reason than to ensure voting machine for Tuđman.  

I gave you the actual reason for conflict between Croats and Muslims, compiling its chronology would be a full time job... which means you’ll have to dig for yourself.

There was no conflict before conflict, obviously, but there were tensions, that would never escalate if it wasn't sistematically pushed in that direction.

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#34    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 08:37 PM

No problem. I will. Maybe Odas will join us.

I only heard that military actions of Croats against Serbs were unknown to Bosnians. And opposite.
Or for example Serbs attacking front line, Bosnians pull over because secret deal with Serbs and Croats were lefted alone. And opposite.

Edited by the L, 16 June 2011 - 08:37 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#35    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 08:43 PM

I think I owe you few key words for your search: Tuta, Šušak, Boban.

There was a lot of confusion, that’s true. And a lot of things were not coordinated. Other things were very coordinated.

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#36    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 10:39 PM

Helen did you read novel "Jebo sad hiljadu dinara" by Boris Dežulović?

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#37    MichaelW

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 04:32 AM

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 16 June 2011 - 08:43 PM, said:

I think I owe you few key words for your search: Tuta, Šušak, Boban.

There was a lot of confusion, that’s true. And a lot of things were not coordinated. Other things were very coordinated.

Have you seen the documentary "The Death of Yugoslavia"? It was done three months after the Dayton Agreement.

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#38    odas

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 01:54 PM

View Postthe L, on 16 June 2011 - 08:37 PM, said:

No problem. I will. Maybe Odas will join us.

I only heard that military actions of Croats against Serbs were unknown to Bosnians. And opposite.
Or for example Serbs attacking front line, Bosnians pull over because secret deal with Serbs and Croats were lefted alone. And opposite.

@Helen, as usual a very good and correct post, however there is one thing that may have been missed. Yes, Tudjman and Milosevic agreed in Karadjordjevo to land swap withing Croatia and Bosnia, that is a historical fact. But, from my point of view, it could have been prevented if the late president of Bosnia and Hercegovina would have been smarter and more couragous. I am not going into details but I was in Croatia during 1991 in the area around Knin. As I mentiond before my cousins just a hint. Late 1991 I tried to pursue my fellow Bosnians to help Croatia. Bosnians felt always a conection to Croats and there was a motion to start something to help. But, Izetbegovic, as I mentioned was way to causios. He did not do what he needed to do. Once he descided to take Bosnia out of Yugoslavija it was to late. The serbs had already taken position all over the country and the deal with Tudjman was reached.
I blame the war between Croats and Bosniaks on both Tudjman and Izetbegovic.
We had a great leader in Hercegovina, my brother Blaz Kraljevic, who was comanding Croat and Bosniak fighters. He was killed by Susak and Boban because he did not agree with the division of Bosnia. That is when the war between the Bosnian Army and the Boban Croats started.
I say Boban Croats because we also had Abdic Bosniaks who fought the Bosnian Army on the side of the Serbs remember?
I just noticed, the war in Balkans was so screwd up, hard to understand for us and even harder, almost immposible, for foreigners to understand.
@L, they called you Ustasha? Hahaha, those idiots do not even know what an Ustasha is. Boban was a communist. My bro Blaz on the other hand was......the real deal. Hahaha. You will hear this in Bosnia, we will hear some other stuff in Croatia but it is a small minority on both sides. It will go away enventualy. We need to start to trust each other that is all.


#39    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 05:49 PM

View Postthe L, on 16 June 2011 - 10:39 PM, said:

Helen did you read novel "Jebo sad hiljadu dinara" by Boris Dežulović?
No, not yet. I have no time for fine literature at the moment. Is it in Feral Tribune style?  

View PostMichaelW, on 17 June 2011 - 04:32 AM, said:

Have you seen the documentary "The Death of Yugoslavia"? It was done three months after the Dayton Agreement.
I usually don’t watch foreign interpretations of ex-Yu history, they are so painfully simplified and distorted I usually have outbursts of anger for weeks later.
But I could take a peek at it, if there’s any particular detail you wish to discuss?


View Postodas, on 17 June 2011 - 01:54 PM, said:

@Helen, as usual a very good and correct post, however there is one thing that may have been missed. Yes, Tudjman and Milosevic agreed in Karadjordjevo to land swap withing Croatia and Bosnia, that is a historical fact. But, from my point of view, it could have been prevented if the late president of Bosnia and Hercegovina would have been smarter and more couragous. I am not going into details but I was in Croatia during 1991 in the area around Knin. As I mentiond before my cousins just a hint. Late 1991 I tried to pursue my fellow Bosnians to help Croatia. Bosnians felt always a conection to Croats and there was a motion to start something to help. But, Izetbegovic, as I mentioned was way to causios. He did not do what he needed to do. Once he descided to take Bosnia out of Yugoslavija it was to late. The serbs had already taken position all over the country and the deal with Tudjman was reached.
I blame the war between Croats and Bosniaks on both Tudjman and Izetbegovic.
We had a great leader in Hercegovina, my brother Blaz Kraljevic, who was comanding Croat and Bosniak fighters. He was killed by Susak and Boban because he did not agree with the division of Bosnia. That is when the war between the Bosnian Army and the Boban Croats started.
I say Boban Croats because we also had Abdic Bosniaks who fought the Bosnian Army on the side of the Serbs remember?
I just noticed, the war in Balkans was so screwd up, hard to understand for us and even harder, almost immposible, for foreigners to understand.
@L, they called you Ustasha? Hahaha, those idiots do not even know what an Ustasha is. Boban was a communist. My bro Blaz on the other hand was......the real deal. Hahaha. You will hear this in Bosnia, we will hear some other stuff in Croatia but it is a small minority on both sides. It will go away enventualy. We need to start to trust each other that is all.
I understand why Izetbegović was desperately trying to stay out of mess... he had no deal and he wanted to minimize the casualties.
It resulted with maximal casualties, but not by his fault. I blame him for being naive, that’s all... you can’t play Gandhi over here. Or, you can play Gandhi but that’s usually the last thing you did.

What happens over here is not only utterly complicated, to the point of bizarre, it also comes in numerous heavily politically influenced interpretations.
So you have – for example – ridiculous version of Kraljević’s death: he was murdered by Ljiljani because Izetbegović was afraid of his growing influence. Even those who perpetuate that construction don’t believe in it, but it still pops up...

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#40    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 06:38 PM

I didnt read it. But I will. Theme is interesting. About Croatian special forces and Bosniaks special forces dressed in opposite uniforms to scout terrain. And they meet. Croats special forces think that Bosnians are HVO so they are fiendly with them and Bosniaks special forces think that Croats are Army BIH so they are kind to them. Start to talk...

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#41    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 06:41 PM

View Postodas, on 17 June 2011 - 01:54 PM, said:

I just noticed, the war in Balkans was so screwd up, hard to understand for us and even harder, almost immposible, for foreigners to understand.
@L, they called you Ustasha? Hahaha, those idiots do not even know what an Ustasha is. Boban was a communist. My bro Blaz on the other hand was......the real deal. Hahaha. You will hear this in Bosnia, we will hear some other stuff in Croatia but it is a small minority on both sides. It will go away enventualy. We need to start to trust each other that is all.
As I say it didnt hurt my feelings but I was sad for Sarajevo.
Very very sad. Disappointed is right word.

Edited by the L, 17 June 2011 - 06:42 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#42    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 06:44 PM

Whats your opinion on Juka? Jusuf Prazina.

He was criminal before war. During war is ...

I heared stories. Some people called him  Legend, some criminal, some betrayer, some lunatic, some greatest fighter in Sarajevo...

Edited by the L, 17 June 2011 - 06:47 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#43    Goodnite

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 06:53 PM

Whew what a mess. My prayer for Croatia is they leave you in peace.

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#44    odas

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 07:04 PM

View Postthe L, on 17 June 2011 - 06:44 PM, said:

Whats your opinion on Juka? Jusuf Prazina.

He was criminal before war. During war is ...

I heared stories. Some people called him  Legend, some criminal, some betrayer, some lunatic, some greatest fighter in Sarajevo...

Well, we had more Prazinas then just him. Yes, he was a criminal but he helped save Sarajevo from the serbs in the begining.
Look, small kriminals were the ones who took up arms to defend the City. Ordinary people did not have guns and were scared, not ready for the war at all. Even in Croatia the one who were in trouble with the Law were the first to defend Croatia.
Of course, with the time he bacem a megaloman and was later assassinated, I believe in Holland or Belgium.


#45    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 07:45 PM

Conclusion: Diana Johnstone is alternative historian. Nicely said. :innocent:

Edited by the L, 17 June 2011 - 07:45 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."




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