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Livio C. Stecchini


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#46    Michael Collins

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 01:12 AM

Stecchini demonstrated that the AEs measured a degree of latitude fairly exactly - according to us. Did it take much science to do that? Conventional archaeology/anthropology says the population of Middle Eastern region were scattered primitive hunter-gatherers up until about 12,000 BC, then the Sumerians appeared suddenly from nowhere, and their cousins in AE knew how to measure latitude. How did that happen by evolution?
Mike


#47    Harte

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 02:28 AM

View PostMichael Collins, on 14 March 2013 - 01:12 AM, said:

Stecchini demonstrated that the AEs measured a degree of latitude fairly exactly - according to us.

No such thing has ever been demonstrated.  If you start from a false pretense, you can "prove" anything.

Your pretense is false.

Harte

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#48    bom shankra

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 07:13 AM

hatres right no such thing has been adequately demonstrated, the reason I started the thread was because the subject of stecchini, and his labarythyine hypothesis on ancient metrology intruiged me. The single fact that the perimeter at the base of the pyramid according to the best survey we have corresponds to the degree of latitude taken at the equator by a factor of 120:1 (i.e 1/2 minute of a degree), with a accuracy that = 1 in 150000. Stecchini didn't invent this, he noticed it, and he didn't invent accounts from ancient greece that attested to the relationship of the G.P.'s perimeter and apothem to geographical measures ( 2 * perimeter = 5 stadia, and 1 stadium for the apothem)

Alot of people hold Petrie up to be inscrutable, but as has already been demonstrated, he was indeed flawed in certain aspects, where as Stecchini, an accoplished and seasoned academic, a proffesor, a life long researcher is universaly tagged as a pseudo scientist, but on fairly unsubstantiated grounds IMO.

The problem is to demonstrate why the modern system of Degrees, minutes and seconds bears relation to stadia and geographical feet (if it indeed they do - NPOV shoul be prority number one, otherwise, as harte says, we'll end up proving anything - even if only to our own satisfaction).
Babylonian were using sexagesimal systems, and were in  neigbouring territory, but  quoting your first post Mike, so what! = wheres the actual pudding? (BTW, welcome to the site, you have to soak plenty up here, but don't be put off, stick to your guns :gun: )


I'm a spare time entusiast, and only get a minute here, and a minute there to investigate anything.  I already posted some B.S. here in haste, to try and counter what I felt was narrow mindedness, but ho-hum, the threads still going, the problem is it's only going round in circles :rolleyes:!

I have been meaning to present some of my own concerns about stecchinis hypotheses, but I keep getting side tracked.

-  for example, his reference to the land of nortern egypt being called To-Mehu (commonly held to mean the land of papyrus), but from which stecchini digresses, and suggests that it means 'to fill up", i.e. nortern egypt- the land which fills up the dimensions of Egypt" so, northern egypt corresponds to the seventh hand added to the cubit.  - he goes on from here to demonstrate that beggining in pre dynastic times there has been an evolution that has led to a geodetic system that enabled the early dynasties to accurately plan and measure the extent of their lands, establishing and transforming the land into a stylised, and symbolic representation of their core cultural belief systems, and their fledling mastery of the arts and sciences. There is a great deal of detail contained in the slim appendix stecchin allowed to be published, but I will serialize it for the readership here as the opportunity arises.

look forward to feedback :rofl:

Edited by bom shankra, 14 March 2013 - 07:21 AM.

Whats happening here? I can't add URL links on my signature (to legal streeming music sites such as smithsonian folkways radio / adelaide community "3D radio - 5DDD") -  have I been disabled???, I did post a link to a bob dylan video on my 'profile feed' a few weeks ago that might have been dubious, it got deleted, by someone anyway, very sorry guys!!! But why did the legitimate links on my signature also get wiped? - and I say, I seem to be disabled now :td: .

#49    third_eye

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 09:52 AM

View Postbom shankra, on 14 March 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:


~snip

I'm a spare time entusiast, and only get a minute here, and a minute there to investigate anything.  I already posted some B.S. here in haste, to try and counter what I felt was narrow mindedness, but ho-hum, the threads still going, the problem is it's only going round in circles :rolleyes:!

~snip

look forward to feedback :rofl:

patience ....... there are still bigger and more circles to round :D

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#50    bom shankra

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 10:48 AM

pyramid fish
Uploaded 14 Mar 2013 - 10:40

Posted Image

Whats happening here? I can't add URL links on my signature (to legal streeming music sites such as smithsonian folkways radio / adelaide community "3D radio - 5DDD") -  have I been disabled???, I did post a link to a bob dylan video on my 'profile feed' a few weeks ago that might have been dubious, it got deleted, by someone anyway, very sorry guys!!! But why did the legitimate links on my signature also get wiped? - and I say, I seem to be disabled now :td: .

#51    Michael Collins

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 03:51 AM

hello bom shankra, unfortunately I am busy with my day job just now. will get back to you ltr on the significance of 14 and the body of Horus. Mike C


#52    bom shankra

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 07:01 AM

what is frustrating with livio's style is his use of millimeters 4 to decimal places when refereing to a cubit - thats tenths of a micron (facepalm). even petrie gives mm to two decimals!

e.g. one thats funny in a couple of ways :- he gives a figure for a measure, in this case it's the outside height of the coffer in the GP

Stecchini says and I quote (red my comment) " the height taken as 2 cubits of 524.1438mm (Stecchini states that the outside height of the coffer alone  is calculated by this cubit in order to "establish a link between the coffer and the rest of the Pyramid)= 1048.29mm, in terms of the cubit of 526.3231mm (he says earlier in the text that the coffer is based on this cubit, and that a hand of 1/7 of this cubit is the intended measure) , this equates to 13.9422 'hands'; possibly the figure was rounded to 13.9333'hands' = 1047.63mm"

he's saying the coffer was established using hands 1/7 of a cubit of 526.3231mm, but there is a singular correlation of the use of 2 cubits of 524.1438mm for the external height of the coffer, but there is a slight discrepency, but this discrepency was not of importance, just the starting point in the conception of the coffer. (width 13 hands, length 30.3 hands, and height 13.9333 hands (tenths of a micro-hand?). anyway, it all computes to establishing that the coffer is exactlly 80 artabas (not really, stecchini says"its volume = 5488.3 cubic hands, Now 5488 cubic hands is 16 cubic cubits, or 80 artabas")

so thats crystal clear isn't it.

I'm not saying there is any flaw here but - (facepalm)!

I get what hes saying

Whats happening here? I can't add URL links on my signature (to legal streeming music sites such as smithsonian folkways radio / adelaide community "3D radio - 5DDD") -  have I been disabled???, I did post a link to a bob dylan video on my 'profile feed' a few weeks ago that might have been dubious, it got deleted, by someone anyway, very sorry guys!!! But why did the legitimate links on my signature also get wiped? - and I say, I seem to be disabled now :td: .

#53    Michael Collins

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 04:37 AM

Hi Bom Shankra, Stecchini noticed [measured?] the internal capacity of the GP coffer [in the upper Kings chamber] at 8 cubic cubits, which is 2744 cubic hands [he said 2745 and a bit?]
why that is important, or at least interesting, is because 2744 is 14 cubed ...and there are AE 'legends' that the body of Horus was broken into 14 pieces, but his mother Isis recoverd and reassembled all the pieces and brought him back to life. There are a couple of versions of that story but same underlying theme
So what does that mean?  Just an interesting but meaningless story????
Horus was a 'sun god' , son of Ra...so it means the 'body' of the son 'sun' was composed of 2744 elements [14 cubed]
The 'body' was not a person or a being but some sort of inanimate 'thing' composed of 2744 pieces.
That relates to the story in the Westcar papyrus that tells Cheops sought to discover the secret number of things in the flint coffer of Thoth.  It must have been an important number ...the number of the beast.
Gleeson in Before The Delusion gives his explanation of what all that means ...that would be giving away his story. Its worth reading. Cheers, MC


#54    Harte

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 05:03 AM

I'd like to see the evidence that the artaba was used in the 4th dynasty.

Harte

I've consulted all the sages I could find in yellow pages but there aren't many of them. - The Alan Parsons Project
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong. - Thomas Jefferson
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#55    Michael Collins

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 11:57 PM

I don't know that anyone claimed anything about an artaba. MC


#56    bom shankra

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 04:34 AM

View PostMichael Collins, on 17 March 2013 - 11:57 PM, said:

I don't know that anyone claimed anything about an artaba. MC
Stecchini is promoting this idea, Peter Tompkins alleges he 'reminded' him (stecchini) that Petrie had found the coffer in the kings chamber to be designed in even numbers of fiths of a cubit, whereupon Stecchini ''resolved the millenial riddle oif the coffer showing thast it contains exactly 40 artaBAS (40 cubes whose sides are one geographic foot, and the outside volume is twice this amount, or 80 cubes of one geographic foot (of 307.7957mm)"

Stecchini is also saying that the Cubit of 526.3231 cubed = 5 artabas, which is why he suggests this was the cubit used in planning the coffer.

In other words the design in even numbers that Petrie suspected was volumes, and not linear measures. (even though it isn't actually exact, and leaves a lot to be desired!). There is more in Stecchinis appendix  on this;  and maybe I'll backtrack a bit, and see if I can make a better case at some point in the near future...  but, for now at least, I can't offer prove the existance of the georaphic foot, or artabs in 4th dynasty Egypt, (any evidence I may be able to coax out of Stecchinis work is likely to be of the empirical kind)

The coffer has been discussed firstly thanks to the interest shown by Mike, and secondly I used it merely to give an example of the difficulties encountered in attemping disambiguation with Stecchinis 'material'

So Mike, cheers for the contribution, though I'm not quite positioned to discuss the mythological aspects of the subject, but I am prepared to suspend judgement until a case can be put forward for the significance of the details supplied. I'm of the school of thought that hidden doctrines and  scientific theories etc are often encoded in mythological tales, and welcome further elucidation (don't worry about giving away the story!)

Whats happening here? I can't add URL links on my signature (to legal streeming music sites such as smithsonian folkways radio / adelaide community "3D radio - 5DDD") -  have I been disabled???, I did post a link to a bob dylan video on my 'profile feed' a few weeks ago that might have been dubious, it got deleted, by someone anyway, very sorry guys!!! But why did the legitimate links on my signature also get wiped? - and I say, I seem to be disabled now :td: .

#57    Michael Collins

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 05:18 AM

Hey Bom, I'm so dumb I didn't even know S referred to the artaba. I'm not very interested if the measurement was exact...but there is a coherent story behind the significance of the number 14 cubed.   There are even AE illustrations that show a box [coffer] containing 14 sets of items, and lots of AE literature refs to putting together the 14 [or 7] mounds of 'god' . I can look up all that stuff, don't remember off the top of my head. Its all in Gleeson anyway.
I guess I am motivated not by how they measured etc...but what was it for?
I undertsand there is recent stuff proving over again that the compass alignment of the GP was very exact ...much is made of that...but what is the point? It's nice but what was it for?  I don't know, seems just to be a coherent irrelevancy
Cheers
MC


#58    Harte

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 05:55 PM

View PostMichael Collins, on 18 March 2013 - 05:18 AM, said:

I undertsand there is recent stuff proving over again that the compass alignment of the GP was very exact ...much is made of that...but what is the point? It's nice but what was it for?  I don't know, seems just to be a coherent irrelevancy
Cheers
MC

IMO, it wasn't aligned with north at all, but aligned with the east-west path of the Sun.  Would that help you see what it was for?

Because the base is rectangular, this automatically aligns it with north-south as well.

Harte

I've consulted all the sages I could find in yellow pages but there aren't many of them. - The Alan Parsons Project
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong. - Thomas Jefferson
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#59    Michael Collins

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:54 AM

Hello Harte, I didn't actually say it was aligned to north ...I just said it was 'aligned'
Interesting that it was aligned - intentionally or by default ? - with the east-west passage of the sun
Interesting because the Pyr texts , and other AE texts,  actually say the sun rose in the west. Not that that would change the orientation, but it would change the direction.
You'll see in Faulkner's trans of the PT that he footnotes the original text says the sun rose in the west ...which he called a 'blunder' and changed it to east.
MC


#60    Harte

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:32 PM

View PostMichael Collins, on 19 March 2013 - 12:54 AM, said:

Hello Harte, I didn't actually say it was aligned to north ...I just said it was 'aligned'
Interesting that it was aligned - intentionally or by default ? - with the east-west passage of the sun
Interesting because the Pyr texts , and other AE texts,  actually say the sun rose in the west. Not that that would change the orientation, but it would change the direction.
You'll see in Faulkner's trans of the PT that he footnotes the original text says the sun rose in the west ...which he called a 'blunder' and changed it to east.
MC

From Budge:

Quote


Originally the text was the most important part of the work, and both it and its vignettes were the work of the scribe; gradually, however, the brilliantly illuminated vignettes were more and more cared for, and when the skill of the scribe failed, the artist was called in. In many fine papyri of the Theban period it is clear that the whole plan of the vignettes of a papyrus was set out by artists, who often failed to leave sufficient space for the texts to which they belonged; in consequence many lines of chapters are often omitted, and the last few lines of some texts are so much crowded as to be almost illegible. The frequent clerical errors also show that while an artist of the greatest skill might be employed on the vignettes, the execution of the text was left to an ignorant or careless scribe. Again, the artist at times arranged his vignettes in wrong order, and it is occasionally evident that neither artist nor scribe understood the matter upon which he was engaged. According to M. Maspero the scribes of the VIth dynasty did not understand the texts which they were drafting, and in the XIXth dynasty the scribe of a papyrus now preserved at Berlin knew or cared so little about the text which he was copying that he transcribed the LXXVIIth Chapter from the wrong end, and apparently never discovered his error although he concluded the chapter with its title. Originally each copy of the Book of the Dead was written to order, but soon the custom obtained of preparing copies with blank spaces in which the name of the purchaser might be inserted; and many of the errors in spelling and most of the omissions of words are no doubt due to the haste with which such " stock" copies were written by the members of the priestly caste, whose profession it was to copy them.”


Errors in the PTs plague the proper translation of such.


Harte



Edited by Harte, 19 March 2013 - 01:33 PM.

I've consulted all the sages I could find in yellow pages but there aren't many of them. - The Alan Parsons Project
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong. - Thomas Jefferson
Giorgio's dying Ancient Aliens internet forum




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