174 replies to this topic

[Br Cornelius]

Paracelse, on 01 January 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

I would recommend you to read Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations rather than carl marx.
here's a link to wiki

http://en.wikipedia....alth_of_nations

Why would you presume to believe that I have read marx or have any interest in his ideas. Your making the same basic mistake as Mr Right Wing.

If the choice is between capitalism and socialism then we are doomed - that is a guarantee.

What i was attempting to point out, through irony, was the total inadequacy of Mr Right Wings analysis of the state we are actually in. Shallow and one dimensional.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 01 January 2012 - 07:14 PM.

[acidhead]

Br Cornelius, on 01 January 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

This is the only form of capitalism which has ever existed. Again you reference some holy grail of perfect capitalism like a religious fanatic.
If I said to you, if only we had a Global Caliphate based on the pure principles of the Koran - would you believe me. I suspect not, so why do you make the same claims for the perfect expression of a concept dreamed up by Adam Smith.

Again it fundamentally misses the point that the very nature of the principle of capitalism is not sustainable and not equitable.

Br Cornelius

No Br Cornelius, nobody is referencing some holy grail of perfect capitalism, only you... you alone.  It feeds your ego.

If you said to me, if only we had a global economic system based on pure religious principles I'd say you f-ing nuts.  It's not my nor your business to tell other nations how to live their lives.

The point is crystal clear that there has been no other system other than the free market capitalism system that has given back the most prosperity to mankind. Like democracy, it may not be perfect but nothing is perfect.  

I suggest you come to terms that you live in an imperfect world though I'm quite certain that your inner ego tells your ego this all the time.

[Br Cornelius]

acidhead, on 02 January 2012 - 01:15 AM, said:

No Br Cornelius, nobody is referencing some holy grail of perfect capitalism, only you... you alone.  It feeds your ego.

If you said to me, if only we had a global economic system based on pure religious principles I'd say you f-ing nuts.  It's not my nor your business to tell other nations how to live their lives.

The point is crystal clear that there has been no other system other than the free market capitalism system that has given back the most prosperity to mankind. Like democracy, it may not be perfect but nothing is perfect.  

I suggest you come to terms that you live in an imperfect world though I'm quite certain that your inner ego tells your ego this all the time.

I dispute your belief that capitalism has delivered the goods and will continue to deliver the goods. It has sent us on a roller coaster of booms and busts since the 1800's and it will continue to do so if we choose it to be our model. Frankly you cannot point to its successes because it is b****** child of compromise. Any market without external controls (a free market) is subject to irrational mood swings and speculative bubbles. The fact that we are in a worldwide financial crisis at the end of a period of deregulation is proof enough of that. But thats exactly the sort of market which you believe is best able to deliver real prosperity. Are you just ignorant of the fact that the time of the current boom bust cycle has seen shrinking real wages and contractions of prosperity for the majority. So less market control means a general contraction of real wealth (unless you happen to be super rich that is) - how does that square with your image of free market capitalism.

Are you defending capitalism as it is currently practised since you seem unwilling to defend its ideal ?? What are you actually defending here ? Is it big Government which has ruined your imagined implementation ? Last time I looked one of the most controlled capitalist countries (Germany) was doing the best so Government intervention in markets doesn't seem to be the issue here. What has caused the problems ??

I am interested in why we are in such a mess if we are living in the best of all possible systems ? Who's to blame, if it isn't the capitalists who have been running the show for so long ?

Your faith is touching, if a little delusional.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 02 January 2012 - 10:10 AM.

[acidhead]

Br Cornelius, on 02 January 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

I dispute your belief that capitalism has delivered the goods and will continue to deliver the goods. It has sent us on a roller coaster of booms and busts since the 1800's and it will continue to do so if we choose it to be our model. Frankly you cannot point to its successes because it is b****** child of compromise. Any market without external controls (a free market) is subject to irrational mood swings and speculative bubbles. The fact that we are in a worldwide financial crisis at the end of a period of deregulation is proof enough of that. But thats exactly the sort of market which you believe is best able to deliver real prosperity. Are you just ignorant of the fact that the time of the current boom bust cycle has seen shrinking real wages and contractions of prosperity for the majority. So less market control means a general contraction of real wealth (unless you happen to be super rich that is) - how does that square with your image of free market capitalism.

Are you defending capitalism as it is currently practised since you seem unwilling to defend its ideal ?? What are you actually defending here ? Is it big Government which has ruined your imagined implementation ? Last time I looked one of the most controlled capitalist countries (Germany) was doing the best so Government intervention in markets doesn't seem to be the issue here. What has caused the problems ??

I am interested in why we are in such a mess if we are living in the best of all possible systems ? Who's to blame, if it isn't the capitalists who have been running the show for so long ?

Your faith is touching, if a little delusional.

Br Cornelius

We live in a world of possibilities.  A world of knowns and unknowns.  A world, not unlike the solar system and beyond, a world of unpredictability.  Anything can happen at any time.  What we do know is gravity plays a major role, 'perhaps' the most constant role in determining just about everything.  In this world of unpredictability's we have global atmospheric seasons resulting from the position of the axis and the rotation of our planet revolving around the Sun.  Looking at our Moon we can visually see that it is massively cratered.  When we investigate our world we find these same craters here among everything else unique to our living planet.

This is the basis of our environment and the first step to understanding our imperfect world.  It is also the basis to identifying that in a world of indefinite possibilities there can be no perfect solution to a restraining force.  There can be no perfect control in a world of imperfection.

My faith lies herein the unpredictable odds of predicting what happens next.  No one person knows for certain what another is thinking.  We can only adjust to the possibility that our odds of survival counteract with our environment around us.

Everything happens for reasons.  This is not a phrase of faith.  It's the basis of our environment.  It's the same effect that creates each imperfect snowflake or any living organism.  Human's can with the use of science recreate identical organisms and declare victoriously that they have created a perfect recreation from an imperfect organism though what they have indeed created is duplicates of an imperfect organism.

I hope you understand where I'm leading this thought process and how it coincides with our discussion.  Nothing can remain constant and true in a world of imperfection and indefinite possibilities.  Our advances in society, in general, result from individuals pursuing our own personal interests as long as they do not interfere with the physical or personal property of another individual.  This is the basis of liberty.

Freedom to me can be broken into three principles:

1. freedom to vote
2. freedom to speak, write or express ones self
3. freedom to engage in a free market (as long as it doesn't interfere in the physical or personal property of another individual)

This freedom is the basis of the free market capitalism system.  An individual, or a group of individuals who do not adhere to these principles must be brought to justice by a peoples principled court of the law as outlined by the foundations that govern our free society.

Any attempt to cheat this system is against the rules.  The rules are only broken when good men and women do nothing to stop them.  This is what happened recently with the failure of the people to rise and stop the anglo-western governments from allowing the Central banks to use public funds to bail out failing and 'corrupt' corporations.  Even though many would have been affected financially this was still no principled solution to an engineered market failure that didn't affect everybody.  While some cry that the rich keep getting richer, had the principled effects been forced through the rule of law these Crony-Capitalists (CROOKS) would have been brought to justice in a world of imperfect imperfections and a fresh delta of entrepreneurialism been formed.  A rebirth of ideas come anew from all spectrums of society.

It's never too late though.  Nothing ever comes late unless the individual basis time from a clock.  The free market capitalism system has no hourglass.  It's a never ending system that offers endless possibilities in our imperfect world.

[Sky Scanner]

acidhead, on 02 January 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

We live in a world of possibilities.  A world of knowns and unknowns.  A world, not unlike the solar system and beyond, a world of unpredictability.  Anything can happen at any time.  What we do know is gravity plays a major role, 'perhaps' the most constant role in determining just about everything.  In this world of unpredictability's we have global atmospheric seasons resulting from the position of the axis and the rotation of our planet revolving around the Sun.  Looking at our Moon we can visually see that it is massively cratered.  When we investigate our world we find these same craters here among everything else unique to our living planet.

This is the basis of our environment and the first step to understanding our imperfect world.  It is also the basis to identifying that in a world of indefinite possibilities there can be no perfect solution to a restraining force.  There can be no perfect control in a world of imperfection.

My faith lies herein the unpredictable odds of predicting what happens next.  No one person knows for certain what another is thinking.  We can only adjust to the possibility that our odds of survival counteract with our environment around us.

Everything happens for reasons.  This is not a phrase of faith.  It's the basis of our environment.  It's the same effect that creates each imperfect snowflake or any living organism.  Human's can with the use of science recreate identical organisms and declare victoriously that they have created a perfect recreation from an imperfect organism though what they have indeed created is duplicates of an imperfect organism.

I hope you understand where I'm leading this thought process and how it coincides with our discussion.  Nothing can remain constant and true in a world of imperfection and indefinite possibilities.  Our advances in society, in general, result from individuals pursuing our own personal interests as long as they do not interfere with the physical or personal property of another individual.  This is the basis of liberty.

Freedom to me can be broken into three principles:

1. freedom to vote
2. freedom to speak, write or express ones self
3. freedom to engage in a free market (as long as it doesn't interfere in the physical or personal property of another individual)

This freedom is the basis of the free market capitalism system.  An individual, or a group of individuals who do not adhere to these principles must be brought to justice by a peoples principled court of the law as outlined by the foundations that govern our free society.

Any attempt to cheat this system is against the rules.  The rules are only broken when good men and women do nothing to stop them.  This is what happened recently with the failure of the people to rise and stop the anglo-western governments from allowing the Central banks to use public funds to bail out failing and 'corrupt' corporations.  Even though many would have been affected financially this was still no principled solution to an engineered market failure that didn't affect everybody.  While some cry that the rich keep getting richer, had the principled effects been forced through the rule of law these Crony-Capitalists (CROOKS) would have been brought to justice in a world of imperfect imperfections and a fresh delta of entrepreneurialism been formed.  A rebirth of ideas come anew from all spectrums of society.

It's never too late though.  Nothing ever comes late unless the individual basis time from a clock.  The free market capitalism system has no hourglass.  It's a never ending system that offers endless possibilities in our imperfect world.

(imo) That is a great post, and one i'm in agreement with.

[Br Cornelius]

acidhead, on 02 January 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

We live in a world of possibilities.  A world of knowns and unknowns.  A world, not unlike the solar system and beyond, a world of unpredictability.  Anything can happen at any time.  What we do know is gravity plays a major role, 'perhaps' the most constant role in determining just about everything.  In this world of unpredictability's we have global atmospheric seasons resulting from the position of the axis and the rotation of our planet revolving around the Sun.  Looking at our Moon we can visually see that it is massively cratered.  When we investigate our world we find these same craters here among everything else unique to our living planet.

This is the basis of our environment and the first step to understanding our imperfect world.  It is also the basis to identifying that in a world of indefinite possibilities there can be no perfect solution to a restraining force.  There can be no perfect control in a world of imperfection.

My faith lies herein the unpredictable odds of predicting what happens next.  No one person knows for certain what another is thinking.  We can only adjust to the possibility that our odds of survival counteract with our environment around us.

Everything happens for reasons.  This is not a phrase of faith.  It's the basis of our environment.  It's the same effect that creates each imperfect snowflake or any living organism.  Human's can with the use of science recreate identical organisms and declare victoriously that they have created a perfect recreation from an imperfect organism though what they have indeed created is duplicates of an imperfect organism.

I hope you understand where I'm leading this thought process and how it coincides with our discussion.  Nothing can remain constant and true in a world of imperfection and indefinite possibilities.  Our advances in society, in general, result from individuals pursuing our own personal interests as long as they do not interfere with the physical or personal property of another individual.  This is the basis of liberty.

Freedom to me can be broken into three principles:

1. freedom to vote
2. freedom to speak, write or express ones self
3. freedom to engage in a free market (as long as it doesn't interfere in the physical or personal property of another individual)

This freedom is the basis of the free market capitalism system.  An individual, or a group of individuals who do not adhere to these principles must be brought to justice by a peoples principled court of the law as outlined by the foundations that govern our free society.

Any attempt to cheat this system is against the rules.  The rules are only broken when good men and women do nothing to stop them.  This is what happened recently with the failure of the people to rise and stop the anglo-western governments from allowing the Central banks to use public funds to bail out failing and 'corrupt' corporations.  Even though many would have been affected financially this was still no principled solution to an engineered market failure that didn't affect everybody.  While some cry that the rich keep getting richer, had the principled effects been forced through the rule of law these Crony-Capitalists (CROOKS) would have been brought to justice in a world of imperfect imperfections and a fresh delta of entrepreneurialism been formed.  A rebirth of ideas come anew from all spectrums of society.

It's never too late though.  Nothing ever comes late unless the individual basis time from a clock.  The free market capitalism system has no hourglass.  It's a never ending system that offers endless possibilities in our imperfect world.

But it relies on the belief that it will create the best outcome through pure chance. This is a pure act of faith in some magical invisible hand. In complex systems there needs to be a guiding influence (the head as it were or even the DNA) and without it the system runs amock - rather like a cancer in the body, and that is the role which capitalism is serving in the planetary system. Left to run its course - it will have the same outcome as an unchecked cancer in the body.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 02 January 2012 - 06:54 PM.

[Damrod]

Ok Br Cornelius...there is a lot of things on these boards you point out that I actually do agree with...but you seem somewhat slippery and undefined...what is your vision...what is your goals?  You seem to scoff at all disciplines of government and societal standards....are you just a pure anarchist and each man for himself?...then...in the next post you support socialism approaching communism....what is your philosophy...does it have a name or are you making it up as you go along?

I truly like alot of what you say but sometimes it appears that you are a reed in the wind and have no solid and sound convictions...sorry...just an observation...

Tell me your platform for the perfect world so I might better understand your position in politics, environmentalism and social reform....I think you probably have a good mind and a kind heart.. but...like me at times...you bounce around a lot....what is your ultimate "win" scenario...for the individual...the species and the planet as a whole?

[darkmoonlady]

Capitalism with regulation vs capitalism without regulation makes all the different. As long as certain regulations were in place to keep a small percentage of people from pirating the money of others things were actually succeeding. Take those regulations away and it's a free for all and outright theft is now being renamed into corporate profit stratedgy. Look at the plundering of the retirement funds of thousands of workers in multiple corporations to pad the retirement and golden parachutes of a few CEO's and VP's. That is where you look for a reason why capitalism is failing, unlimited greed.

[Br Cornelius]

Damrod, on 02 January 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

Ok Br Cornelius...there is a lot of things on these boards you point out that I actually do agree with...but you seem somewhat slippery and undefined...what is your vision...what is your goals?  You seem to scoff at all disciplines of government and societal standards....are you just a pure anarchist and each man for himself?...then...in the next post you support socialism approaching communism....what is your philosophy...does it have a name or are you making it up as you go along?

I truly like alot of what you say but sometimes it appears that you are a reed in the wind and have no solid and sound convictions...sorry...just an observation...

Tell me your platform for the perfect world so I might better understand your position in politics, environmentalism and social reform....I think you probably have a good mind and a kind heart.. but...like me at times...you bounce around a lot....what is your ultimate "win" scenario...for the individual...the species and the planet as a whole?

I have mentioned many of the details. It cannot be called a philosphy - it is an approach of pragmatism - solutions for problems. As I see it the main problem with mankind is mental weakness which drives him to seek for off the shelf solutions to novel problems. Hence the constant references to theological solutions by the religiously minded, socialist solutions for those who need leading by the nose, and capitalist solutions from those who believe that all is just fine and dandy with the world.

All are cripples solutions from those who have been lobotomised by the society we live in. I have said it before, nothing short of enlightenment for the whole world will lead us to a better place. I have advocated that every man women and child should be made to meditate in some practical program of raising the collective consciousness of the planet. Really get the collective juices flowing and release the potential of every last man jack of us.You think this is airy fairy spiritualist mumbo jumbo - but you would be wrong - meditation has been shown empirically to produce happier, healthier and more creative and productive people - and I do not give a flying fig by what mechanism that is achieved.

We have resource issues and issues of environmental collapse. is it best to leave it to the markets which have actually driven us into these crises - or is it better to systematically analyse the problem for what it is and try to find the best solution to the issue ? I actually don't believe in enlightened self interest or hidden market forces - I believe in engineers and scientists who can analyse a problem and suggest a set of solutions. I am first and formost a technocratic pragmatist with no ideology other than the best outcome at the end of the day.

So if you want a label from me as to what I actually believe in then you are going to be disappointed.

There are many many brilliant brains working on these issues of structure and implementation every single day of the week - but their thoughful solutions are constantly been drowned out by the Maddening headlong dive into more of the same materialistic capitalist/socialist bullcrap. Why - because some people have done very well out of the current state of affairs and will continue to do so until life becomes intolerable for the vast majority of their fellow citizens - and they are the ones who control every means of information by which the ordinary person formulates his world view.

So no simple answers from me - just a desire for people to start thinking beyond the left right blinkers and start looking at the real issues that are effecting us and our future .

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 02 January 2012 - 08:41 PM.

[Damrod]

darkmoonlady, on 02 January 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:

Capitalism with regulation vs capitalism without regulation makes all the different. As long as certain regulations were in place to keep a small percentage of people from pirating the money of others things were actually succeeding. Take those regulations away and it's a free for all and outright theft is now being renamed into corporate profit stratedgy. Look at the plundering of the retirement funds of thousands of workers in multiple corporations to pad the retirement and golden parachutes of a few CEO's and VP's. That is where you look for a reason why capitalism is failing, unlimited greed.

That is what the anti-trust laws of the early 20th century were all about...however...thanks to people and their incurable need to reach out and touch...they have found ways to circumvent those rules...it's actually pathetic when you look at corporate conglomerates like GE...they have waaay too much money and influence and waay to little control...I hope a meteor strikes and kills their board of directors...they have waaay to well figured out how to manipulate the system and ...honestly and quite frankly...those that engineered this scenario should be taken out and head shot...they are the anti-thesis of our plans and goals...just remove them now before they have the opportunity to cause more problems...

Do I see need for the sacrifice of life toward the future....yes...I do....there is going to need to be punishment....the rich and wicked need to pay for their sins with blood.  It is not symbolic as it was a thousand years ago but they need to pay and make the idea of following their footsteps less than desirable.

I have more...shutting up for now....

but you should soul search....what side of the coin do you want to be on?  The heads up good guys?...or the other...and the "other" has a limited life expectancy....is that ok?...love the devil and die young...get real folks....

Edited by Damrod, 02 January 2012 - 08:39 PM.

[liteness]

acidhead, on 02 January 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

We live in a world of possibilities.  A world of knowns and unknowns.  A world, not unlike the solar system and beyond, a world of unpredictability.  Anything can happen at any time.  What we do know is gravity plays a major role, 'perhaps' the most constant role in determining just about everything.  In this world of unpredictability's we have global atmospheric seasons resulting from the position of the axis and the rotation of our planet revolving around the Sun.  Looking at our Moon we can visually see that it is massively cratered.  When we investigate our world we find these same craters here among everything else unique to our living planet.

This is the basis of our environment and the first step to understanding our imperfect world.  It is also the basis to identifying that in a world of indefinite possibilities there can be no perfect solution to a restraining force.  There can be no perfect control in a world of imperfection.

My faith lies herein the unpredictable odds of predicting what happens next.  No one person knows for certain what another is thinking.  We can only adjust to the possibility that our odds of survival counteract with our environment around us.

Everything happens for reasons.  This is not a phrase of faith.  It's the basis of our environment.  It's the same effect that creates each imperfect snowflake or any living organism.  Human's can with the use of science recreate identical organisms and declare victoriously that they have created a perfect recreation from an imperfect organism though what they have indeed created is duplicates of an imperfect organism.

I hope you understand where I'm leading this thought process and how it coincides with our discussion.  Nothing can remain constant and true in a world of imperfection and indefinite possibilities.  Our advances in society, in general, result from individuals pursuing our own personal interests as long as they do not interfere with the physical or personal property of another individual.  This is the basis of liberty.

Freedom to me can be broken into three principles:

1. freedom to vote
2. freedom to speak, write or express ones self
3. freedom to engage in a free market (as long as it doesn't interfere in the physical or personal property of another individual)

This freedom is the basis of the free market capitalism system.  An individual, or a group of individuals who do not adhere to these principles must be brought to justice by a peoples principled court of the law as outlined by the foundations that govern our free society.

Any attempt to cheat this system is against the rules.  The rules are only broken when good men and women do nothing to stop them.  This is what happened recently with the failure of the people to rise and stop the anglo-western governments from allowing the Central banks to use public funds to bail out failing and 'corrupt' corporations.  Even though many would have been affected financially this was still no principled solution to an engineered market failure that didn't affect everybody.  While some cry that the rich keep getting richer, had the principled effects been forced through the rule of law these Crony-Capitalists (CROOKS) would have been brought to justice in a world of imperfect imperfections and a fresh delta of entrepreneurialism been formed.  A rebirth of ideas come anew from all spectrums of society.

It's never too late though.  Nothing ever comes late unless the individual basis time from a clock.  The free market capitalism system has no hourglass.  It's a never ending system that offers endless possibilities in our imperfect world.

I understand I'm way late in responding. But.
You state the following here:

Freedom to me can be broken into three principles:

1. freedom to vote
2. freedom to speak, write or express ones self
3. freedom to engage in a free market (as long as it doesn't interfere in the physical or personal property of another individual)


1. In what country do you think we have freedom to vote? And to what extent? I think, freedom to vote, is probably best expressed in principle in ancient Athens. Not the USA or any other country that I have knowledge of is an example of freedom to vote.
2. Freedom of speech. In what country do we have pure freedom of speech? I know of none. All countries have a watered down version of free speech. None are an example of PURE freedom of speech. Sorry.
3. Free market does not exist. It's a myth. When we have organizations such as federal banking, there is no freedom.
All actions taken within the monetary system are subject to cause and effect from the action of private(like federal banking) elitists. If the federal bank decides, to print money and decrease the value of currency, they do that and it effects EVERYONE in the market. Are we free to engage in the market? Or MUST we engage in the market to survive? And if it's about survival, not choice, who then ultimately is in control of our survival?

The Monetary system is inherently flawed. To argue otherwise is to admit lack of understanding in where our economy has evolved to.
As a whole, the last time we came close to free marketing (like in the USA) was in the early 1910's.
Since that, the market has been controlled by a handful of people.

There is no freedom either. I know, I know, Jefferson would be quite sad, but also... This current situations was predicted by the founding fathers of the USA. Which is why the right to bare arms was put in the constitution.
So the people can fight back their freedom =)

As of today and forward, most countries don't even come close to freedom. It's a myth and an illusion.

There is no chance going on in the world. You may feel living easier to think so, but it's not true.
We can get into this if you wish, start a new thread. I will rock your world.
Otherwise, great post...

[liteness]

Br Cornelius, on 02 January 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

I have mentioned many of the details. It cannot be called a philosphy - it is an approach of pragmatism - solutions for problems. As I see it the main problem with mankind is mental weakness which drives him to seek for off the shelf solutions to novel problems. Hence the constant references to theological solutions by the religiously minded, socialist solutions for those who need leading by the nose, and capitalist solutions from those who believe that all is just fine and dandy with the world.

All are cripples solutions from those who have been lobotomised by the society we live in. I have said it before, nothing short of enlightenment for the whole world will lead us to a better place. I have advocated that every man women and child should be made to meditate in some practical program of raising the collective consciousness of the planet. Really get the collective juices flowing and release the potential of every last man jack of us.You think this is airy fairy spiritualist mumbo jumbo - but you would be wrong - meditation has been shown empirically to produce happier, healthier and more creative and productive people - and I do not give a flying fig by what mechanism that is achieved.

We have resource issues and issues of environmental collapse. is it best to leave it to the markets which have actually driven us into these crises - or is it better to systematically analyse the problem for what it is and try to find the best solution to the issue ? I actually don't believe in enlightened self interest or hidden market forces - I believe in engineers and scientists who can analyse a problem and suggest a set of solutions. I am first and formost a technocratic pragmatist with no ideology other than the best outcome at the end of the day.

So if you want a label from me as to what I actually believe in then you are going to be disappointed.

There are many many brilliant brains working on these issues of structure and implementation every single day of the week - but their thoughful solutions are constantly been drowned out by the Maddening headlong dive into more of the same materialistic capitalist/socialist bullcrap. Why - because some people have done very well out of the current state of affairs and will continue to do so until life becomes intolerable for the vast majority of their fellow citizens - and they are the ones who control every means of information by which the ordinary person formulates his world view.

So no simple answers from me - just a desire for people to start thinking beyond the left right blinkers and start looking at the real issues that are effecting us and our future .

Br Cornelius

I agree with Br Cornelius on this.

We need to abandon our way of thinking. There is a new kid in town, called science and technology, that is what we need to work with in order to progress further and healthy. Ideals, ideas, religions, politics, values and so forth are NOT necessary anymore. We have science and technology now, and that is what we should be using to survive as a civilization. Freedom has nothing to do with it AT ALL, PERIOD.

If we use our new creations in science and technology to continue the progress of our world as a whole, we will be doing MUCH better. Those who argue against this fact, are the ones with the ego problems. Or fear problems.

Br Cornelius is showing intellect, not ego.

[liteness]

Oh, btw!

Cheers to Tesla, Einstein, The Venus Project and Zeitgeist movement.

[trekkie115]

H.H. Holmes, on 21 December 2011 - 07:13 PM, said:

Yes, people tend to lump together all recipients of welfare and government assistance as "lazy" or "unmotivated". This is not the case the majority of the time, most people on the dole are victims of circumstance, whether it is due to economic conditions, mental or physical health, or other factors.

I work in an area where we have a sizeable homeless population and section 8 housing. I see poor people who are honest and hardworking, I also see those poor people who are happy to subsist off of taxpayers money and have no desire to better their situations. I even asked one of the panhandlers one day why he didn't apply at the McDonald right up the street from where he was begging for handouts. He was outraged at such a thought, like he was in the position to choose where he worked. He said "I would never work at McDonald's flipping burgers", like someone from a large business is going to role up in a mercedes and give him a six-figure contract to work in management. Some people don't want to work, even if it means they have to panhandle all day. Although, the man could of have had a few screws loose.

Some people may not want to work, but to spend the best part of one's time flipping burgers or juggling two jobs--is that living?
Human beings are made of better stuff.They are capable of creative thinking. If money decides everything, so much of what we consider creative is going to go away? I had read an article about a man who worked as a janitor or something in Europe, but who made bikes out of wood. I realise all people have creative urges. If we allow people to follow, we should see many new marvels come out. I am convinced this system is nothing better than a system to create drones.

Bear in mind that I am not suggesting communism.The problem with communism is that a central party makes decisions for everyone.
The problem is a system where we have appointed leaders or representatives to represent us. We know they don't work for us: there are numerous
cases of people working for It doesn't matter if it is communism or representative democracy. The problem is the same.
How many times have people elected leaders who promise one thing but do another when they get elected?
The resources of the world should be divided equally among people. People should be allowed to be creative.
There needs of healthcare must be met.
In this world of swift communication the people should make bills and they should vote on those bills and they should
transform those bills into laws. The only precondition should be that no bill can be passed which threatens minorities.
Meanwhile, children need to have some compulsory education decided by everyone like learning some mathematics, physics, etc.

We need to get rid of hierarchical control. There should be no bosses with the power to hire and fire people at will.
All decisions like this should be taken by the people who work in the plants. No bosses whatsoever.

Why will this system work? The reason is that robots and AI are coming. It is merely a matter of time before they will do
more of the brain work as they start getting smarter and as they are doing physical work today.
The point is when the use of labour goes down as time passes, less and less people are going to be employed. There is a future
for entrepreneurs in the future, but there is little future for employees regardless of whether their occupation is
blue-collar or white-collar.

And people in any area must decide the number of people that area can support before adding to the population there.
I believe that genetic research is going to find a way to beat most causes of death in the coming 20-30 years. People are
going to live longer and longer. So having children will become an issue as people are not going to die and the population
is going to increase.

Work hours need to be reduced--you think that is silly? People in coal mines in England once worked 16 hours a day in the 1700s or 1800s.
Conditions are better today in the developed world, but is that the case in the third world where fewer laws and even
lesser enforcement of labour rights is there? Working days must be reduced and the billions around the world should share in the ownership of
companies.

Strict laws restricting companies from short-term profit should be made--by the people, not representatives.
Only then can we all escape the dull zombie-like existence we are bound to till all our youth is spent and we are
old people.

[trekkie115]

Br Cornelius, on 02 January 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

I dispute your belief that capitalism has delivered the goods and will continue to deliver the goods. It has sent us on a roller coaster of booms and busts since the 1800's and it will continue to do so if we choose it to be our model. Frankly you cannot point to its successes because it is b****** child of compromise. Any market without external controls (a free market) is subject to irrational mood swings and speculative bubbles. The fact that we are in a worldwide financial crisis at the end of a period of deregulation is proof enough of that. But thats exactly the sort of market which you believe is best able to deliver real prosperity. Are you just ignorant of the fact that the time of the current boom bust cycle has seen shrinking real wages and contractions of prosperity for the majority. So less market control means a general contraction of real wealth (unless you happen to be super rich that is) - how does that square with your image of free market capitalism.

Are you defending capitalism as it is currently practised since you seem unwilling to defend its ideal ?? What are you actually defending here ? Is it big Government which has ruined your imagined implementation ? Last time I looked one of the most controlled capitalist countries (Germany) was doing the best so Government intervention in markets doesn't seem to be the issue here. What has caused the problems ??

I am interested in why we are in such a mess if we are living in the best of all possible systems ? Who's to blame, if it isn't the capitalists who have been running the show for so long ?

Your faith is touching, if a little delusional.

Br Cornelius

We need a system that is neither capitalist or communist but which nurtures people and allows them to be creative.
What does our current system do? When one is a child they tell us to be creative, to have fun, to look forward to living; when the same individual
becomes an adult all manner of chains are put on him or her? Un-inspiring, dull work built to produce stuff--a machine like a digestive system that takes food in and produces ****! The difference is that in biology **** works like manure and enriches the soil. In our industries, it is often nothing other than poison.
And all the while the drones work!