62 replies to this topic

[Hasina]

Bible verses can be interpreted numerous ways, they're like the word version of tea leaves.

[Amalthe]

scowl, on 05 November 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

Matthew 10:14-15 said all cities who reject Jesus will be destroyed: "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city."

Matthew 15:14 showed that Jesus promoted the Mosaic law that disrespectful children should be executed: "God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death."

Although it's not Jesus, Paul goes on a tear in 1 Romans 1:32 screaming about "backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents," and so on. He ended it saying "Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." Not only these people but people who support them should be killed.

And of course Jesus's description of the end of the world with plagues, earthquakes and so on involved plenty of death.

Well , talking about death that will surely happen, and promoting death are two different things. For instance, I believe three quarters of population will perish very soon. But I wouldn't like that to happen, not to people i know, not to people i don't know. So just the facts that Jesus talked about that, the fact that He explained the Judgment and the Law, doesn't mean the He wants people to die by the Law.

[Amalthe]

Hasina, on 05 November 2012 - 09:15 PM, said:

Bible verses can be interpreted numerous ways, they're like the word version of tea leaves.

That's so true, and Bible has a fair share of illogical lines and strange verses. But I think God gave us logical mind to understand the spirit od the Bible, and His Spirit to guide us and to overcome the words of the Bible themselves. If you remember, Jesus specificly condened pharisees who obeyed the strict word of the Law of Moses but failed to obey the spirit of The Law.

[shadowhive]

Amalthe, on 06 November 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

Well , talking about death that will surely happen, and promoting death are two different things. For instance, I believe three quarters of population will perish very soon. But I wouldn't like that to happen, not to people i know, not to people i don't know. So just the facts that Jesus talked about that, the fact that He explained the Judgment and the Law, doesn't mean the He wants people to die by the Law.

The problem with that is rather obvious. Killing that many people (between 5 and 6 billion) is wrong. It doesn't matter wheather it's man or satan or gd, the salughter of that many people is still wrong. And yet you sit back, with a smile and shrug, saying you wouldn't 'like' it to happen, but you're not going anywhere near condemning it.

You choose to believe in an entity that would kill over 5 billion people and I think that says a lot. None of it is good.

Amalthe, on 05 November 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

A christian that hopes for death and destruction of millions, even if they be enemies of christianity, is no christian at all.  Jesus is quite precise on this, it is not upon humans to deliver revenge by their hands. Truth is that such terrible destruction will come to pass, not by the hand of God, but the hands of Men. If you check the ideas of international elite rulers, earth is overcrowded and overpopulated, so the Final plan is set in motion to "correct" the population number by war, famine and disease.

And yet both you and and then certainly seem to want such destruction to happen. You certainly seem hopefully that this destructiion will come soon too. To be honest, I think that's rather disgusting.

There is a big leap from saying the world is overcrowded to saying 'let's start killing people to thin things out!' Agan, I'm horrified someone would even suggest that. Sadly, I'm not surprised. I wish I was, I really do. But it just seems that some believers have turned their belief into a death cult. They want people to suffer and die horribly, because the higher the death count the closer it means to 'Jesus' return'. It wouldnt surprise me if a religious person started the slaughter, under the deluson t would mean he'd return.

Edited by shadowhive, 06 November 2012 - 10:24 AM.

[Amalthe]

shadowhive, on 06 November 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

The problem with that is rather obvious. Killing that many people (between 5 and 6 billion) is wrong. It doesn't matter wheather it's man or satan or gd, the salughter of that many people is still wrong. And yet you sit back, with a smile and shrug, saying you wouldn't 'like' it to happen, but you're not going anywhere near condemning it.

I don't understand moral problem in this. I could really use your clarification, like in example.
Say you are a psychiatrist and you discover that a president of your country has serious personality issues. And you are quite confident that he has a plan to start a war with neighbor that will kill thousands.  What are you supposed to do? Yes, you can inform the general public, but you have no evidence to support your claim. What would you do? If you had a chance to kill that president in order to stop more deaths that you believe would happen, would you do it?
I don't want bad things to happen, and i condemn killing. But i feel i can't escape it whatever i do, i can just do everything possible now to ensure that when time comes, I stay alive.

shadowhive, on 06 November 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

You choose to believe in an entity that would kill over 5 billion people and I think that says a lot. None of it is good.

And yet both you and and then certainly seem to want such destruction to happen. You certainly seem hopefully that this destructiion will come soon too. To be honest, I think that's rather disgusting.

I believe in God who would not kill a city if he finds atleast 5 righteous people inside. Killing will be brought not by God but by men who want to govern the world, and they think it will be much easier with less people around.
I don't want it to happen, and i'm not hopefull, because I am not a person who feels that evil people deserve punishment, especially when killing is indiscriminatory. I believe this is what you talk about when you mention religious person, but i'm 100% sure that such person who believes by killing he serves greater purpose, has nothing to do with God.

Edited by Amalthe, 06 November 2012 - 11:14 AM.

[shadowhive]

Amalthe, on 06 November 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

I don't understand moral problem in this. I could really use your clarification, like in example.
Say you are a psychiatrist and you discover that a president of your country has serious personality issues. And you are quite confident that he has a plan to start a war with neighbor that will kill thousands.  What are you supposed to do? Yes, you can inform the general public, but you have no evidence to support your claim. What would you do? If you had a chance to kill that president in order to stop more deaths that you believe would happen, would you do it?
I don't want bad things to happen, and i condemn killing. But i feel i can't escape it whatever i do, i can just do everything possible now to ensure that when time comes, I stay alive.

The moral problem there is that you support your god even though he claims he will kill three quarters of the population and you're more than ok with that. Not only that, your more concerned with your own self preservation than those lives.

Quote

I believe in God who would not kill a city if he finds atleast 5 righteous people inside. Killing will be brought not by God but by men who want to govern the world, and they think it will be much easier with less people around.
I don't want it to happen, and i'm not hopefull, because I am not a person who feels that evil people deserve punishment, especially when killing is indiscriminatory. I believe this is what you talk about when you mention religious person, but i'm 100% sure that such person who believes by killing he serves greater purpose, has nothing to do with God.

Correction. 5 people that he defines as righteous, which always seems to be on a sliding scale. Because of the belief that 'everyone is a sinner' he could clearly say there's no righteous peple there because he deems everyone a sinner from birth.

You seem to flip flop there. On one hand, god does all the killing. On the other it's man. Which is it?

You seem to have no problem about it though, for someone who doesn't 'want' it to happen.

[Rlyeh]

and then, on 31 October 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:

I expect Him to be large and in charge and when the dust clears the survivors are going to wonder WHY we couldn't have had this peace all along....  A better day is coming - mostly because it can't get much worse and life continue.

Because of people like you who don't want peace.

[Amalthe]

shadowhive, on 06 November 2012 - 11:33 AM, said:

The moral problem there is that you support your god even though he claims he will kill three quarters of the population and you're more than ok with that. Not only that, your more concerned with your own self preservation than those lives.

Correction. 5 people that he defines as righteous, which always seems to be on a sliding scale. Because of the belief that 'everyone is a sinner' he could clearly say there's no righteous peple there because he deems everyone a sinner from birth.

You seem to flip flop there. On one hand, god does all the killing. On the other it's man. Which is it?

You seem to have no problem about it though, for someone who doesn't 'want' it to happen.

Wow, wait a minute, i'm now lost. Where is written that God will kill three quarters of population? Where did i say i'm ok with that? I just said i really don't know what else to do but to ensure my self preservation, and i asked you to clarify, but you didn't bother to help me understand your actions in that psychiatrist scenario.

You seem to confuse me with some catholic I don't believe that people are born with sin, that is not logical. And i think righteousness is something clear to anyone, there was no change in definition as far as i know.

[shadowhive]

Amalthe, on 06 November 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

Wow, wait a minute, i'm now lost. Where is written that God will kill three quarters of population? Where did i say i'm ok with that? I just said i really don't know what else to do but to ensure my self preservation, and i asked you to clarify, but you didn't bother to help me understand your actions in that psychiatrist scenario.

Amalthe, on 06 November 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

Well , talking about death that will surely happen, and promoting death are two different things. For instance, I believe three quarters of population will perish very soon. But I wouldn't like that to happen, not to people i know, not to people i don't know. So just the facts that Jesus talked about that, the fact that He explained the Judgment and the Law, doesn't mean the He wants people to die by the Law.

As to the scenario you laid out you'd have to be more than 'quite confident' before you did anything. You'd have to be certain.

Quote

You seem to confuse me with some catholic I don't believe that people are born with sin, that is not logical. And i think righteousness is something clear to anyone, there was no change in definition as far as i know.

Righteousness is far from clear. From far too many believers I hear the belief in god superceeds righteousness. For example, I could live a good life and come up with a cure to a disease, which saves millions of lives. Yet, because I don't believe in god, I'm not righteous.

So what truly matters to your god: if a person does god deeds or if a person believes in god?

[Karlis]

At this stage in the tread, the following may be of some relevance.

Heb 5:12  In fact, though by now you should be teachers, you still need someone to teach you the basic truths of God's word. You have become people who need milk instead of solid food.
Heb 5:13  For everyone who lives on milk is still a baby and is inexperienced in the message of righteousness.
Heb 5:14  But solid food is for mature people, whose minds are trained by practice to distinguish good from evil.

[Amalthe]

shadowhive, on 06 November 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

As to the scenario you laid out you'd have to be more than 'quite confident' before you did anything. You'd have to be certain.

I was asking what would you do, and it seems your answer is basically the same as mine : Don't know, not sure. So it is not logical to accuse me to pursue my own self preservation if you couldn't do better.

shadowhive, on 06 November 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

Righteousness is far from clear. From far too many believers I hear the belief in god superceeds righteousness. For example, I could live a good life and come up with a cure to a disease, which saves millions of lives. Yet, because I don't believe in god, I'm not righteous.

So what truly matters to your god: if a person does god deeds or if a person believes in god?

As far as i know, being righteous has NOTHING to do with faith in God. I am believer, yet i confirm i am NOT righteous. And yet i have atheist friend i know from work, who is better christian than hundreds of other people i know, who declare themselves as christians. I firmly believe that God does not judge people on what they declare themselves, but according to what principle they live, since Gods principles are written in our hearts. If you don't believe in God, and yet hold your moral conscience in high regard, if you follow the rule that you do to others what you like to be done to yourself, if you are humble, merciful and just, and not judging others, then God counts you among his people, although you do not believe in Him.

I think Epistle of Romans sums up what i mean, especially 2:13-15

"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another"

[Muzzybluezzy]

Abramelin, on 31 October 2012 - 01:39 AM, said:

But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them — bring them here and kill them in front of me.

http://bible.cc/luke/19-27.htm

Can someone explain to me what Jesus meant with this?

" 'I can guarantee that everyone who has something will be given more. But everything will be taken away from those who don't have much."
"Bring my enemies, who didn't want me to be their king. Kill them in front of me.'"



here Jesus means worldly people (the exteriorists) who don't accept his spiritual kingdom( the holy inwardness),  cannot have eternal life, hence he says "killing them" but this usage does not mean you kill selfish and materialistic people, this expression means (for people like them) due to their godlessness, their death is more good than their life, because worldy people that don't have any spiritual belief are perishable. You might think it is like a reproach to materialistic lifes.

[HavocWing]

Muzzybluezzy, on 08 November 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

" 'I can guarantee that everyone who has something will be given more. But everything will be taken away from those who don't have much."
"Bring my enemies, who didn't want me to be their king. Kill them in front of me.'"



here Jesus means worldly people (the exteriorists) who don't accept his spiritual kingdom( the holy inwardness),  cannot have eternal life, hence he says "killing them" but this usage does not mean you kill selfish and materialistic people, this expression means (for people like them) due to their godlessness, their death is more good than their life, because worldy people that don't have any spiritual belief are perishable. You might think it is like a reproach to materialistic lifes.

So those that don't worship Jesus are expendable?

[Muzzybluezzy]

HavocWing, on 08 November 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

So those that don't worship Jesus are expendable?

I hope I said above clear enough but my reply to your question:
Nature or god or elohim or galactic federation whatever you say for the Creator, it's unimportant, it's important that what or who you want to mean, this order that we experience, disciplines them anyway, even if they don't want to find out truths!
In fact every entity has a value in God's plan but unbelievers don't have a spiritual value because of their godlessness, as the phrase goes that they are like an animal. It's important to notice that bodies change, die but souls live forever. Souls need any spiritual belief to live in a spiritual form. Jesus/Christianity and Abraham's other religions give people the belief of this spiritual form. The rest is people's problem. If you want a certain answer for your question, it's here: "Unfortunately, yes!"

[docyabut2]

Good grief people Jesus was telling  one of his riddles, those words were of a king in Jesus story.