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Archaeological Evidence For Moses


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#241    questionmark

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 04:02 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 13 February 2010 - 01:46 AM, said:

LOL I'd never heard of the acronym A.M.O.R.C. I had to Google it, and lo and behold, I can't say I'm surprised. Those ol' Rosicrucians again. It makes sense, given their penchant for invented initiation rites and mystical rituals. Few have misinterpreted ancient Egyptian religion quite like the Rosicrucians. They excel at it, in fact.

I should've also mentioned that in all my studies of ancient Egyptian religion, the professional literature I've read has never once mentioned "mystery schools" in any serious context. One might see them mentioned on fringe websites, fringe books, and by the fringy Rosicrucians, but that certainly does not make "mystery schools" a reality.

See, there was in fact a "mystery" school in the antiquity, but it had nothing, or very little, to do with what we would call "spiritual" secrets... the Pythagorean School had more to do with math...

But that would be many moons after the timeline we envision.

With all these "secrets" that are murmured we are talking in reality about "secrets of trade". All profession that required an extensive knowledge had its rites and initiations that sometimes go back a long time. First because certain actions and sentence forms help the memorizing, and second to keep unwanted competition away.

It is not surprising that the "spiritual" forms of initial took over the rituals of the trade societies, sometimes in pure ignorance of the real meaning... best example the Freemasons, who just took over the rituals of the Mason's Guild.

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#242    SlimJim22

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 04:12 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 13 February 2010 - 04:02 PM, said:

See, there was in fact a "mystery" school in the antiquity, but it had nothing, or very little, to do with what we would call "spiritual" secrets... the Pythagorean School had more to do with math...

But that would be many moons after the timeline we envision.

With all these "secrets" that are murmured we are talking in reality about "secrets of trade". All profession that required an extensive knowledge had its rites and initiations that sometimes go back a long time. First because certain actions and sentence forms help the memorizing, and second to keep unwanted competition away.

It is not surprising that the "spiritual" forms of initial took over the rituals of the trade societies, sometimes in pure ignorance of the real meaning... best example the Freemasons, who just took over the rituals of the Mason's Guild.

I'll go along with the majority of what you say... except that Pythagoras was into maths at the expense of spirit. I have no evidence but I would disagree. They were into sacred geometry and would have seen it in nature and may have made connections between God, the Universe and mans place in it. Math, music, spirit are all strings of the same instrument you could say. However, the thing that confuses things today is that secert socieities can't keep themselves secret I expect this would have been different in antiquity and this could explain the little or no evidence that we find.

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#243    Rolci

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 04:32 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 13 February 2010 - 01:09 PM, said:

Thanks Rolci that is an interesting viewpoint. However, I am often sceptical often channelled entities. Is this Ra the same as Amon Ra of Egypt? If it is then it can't really be trusted as he would have been opposed to the Law of One unless I am misunderstanding. It does indeed seem fairly common for positives to be turned into negatives especially over a course of time as the more aggressive invariably gain the upper hand through subjugation. I'm not quite gettign what you're saying about Moses. Is it that Moses was depressed when his message wasn't quite getting through? Perhaps the golden calf and all that. My problem is if he was positively positioned as you say then why would he care? Wouldn't he have faith in the Law of One and be content that he was ascending? He must've known things wouldn't play out immediately. Maybe you could have a quiet word with Ra and ask it to clarify. Cheers

hello. Sorry, I'm not sure what you are unclear of. You SHOULD be skeptical of channeled entities, especially since some of the sessions, even though start channeling a positively oriented entity, end up, after asking the "wrong" questions, channeling a negatively oriented entity, whose "mission" is, among others, to carry on channeling seemingly positive messages but also including, most often, predictions with dates etc, which, later on, turn out to be false, thus ruining the group's reputation. L/L Research, with their decades of experience and staff with scientific background education, would and do recognize such anomalies, in fact they warn others of these dangers and also have educational material regarding channeling without getting tangled up with negative entities.
Ra, from whom they channeled over 100 times during the course of a couple of years in the early 80's, is a 6th density entity, which means they completed their 3rd density experience on Venus million of years ago and have moved on since through 4th and 6th density. Not sure you were asking about his orientation, but this might help:
"We are those who are of the Law of One. In our vibration the polarities are harmonized; the complexities are simplified; the paradoxes have a solution. We are one."
Also consider this:
"The sixth-density negative entity is extremely
wise. It observes the spiritual entropy occurring due to the lack of ability to
express the unity of sixth-density. Thus, loving the Creator and realizing at
some point that the Creator is not only self but other-self as self, this entity
consciously chooses an instantaneous energy reorientation so that it may
continue its evolution."
And also:
"Questioner: Then at fourth-density graduation into fifth is there anything
like that which you gave as the percentages necessary for third-density
graduation into fourth in polarization?
Ra: I am Ra. There are, in your modes of thinking, responses we can make,
which we shall make. However, the important point is that the graduations
from density to density do occur. The positive/negative polarity is a thing
which will, at the sixth level, simply become history. Therefore, we speak in
an illusory time continuum when we discuss statistics of positive versus
negative harvest into fifth. A large percentage of fourth-density negative
entities continue the negative path from fourth to fifth-density experience,
for without wisdom the compassion and desire to aid other-self is not
extremely well informed. Thus though one loses approximately two percent
moving from negative to positive during the fourth-density experience we
find approximately eight percent of graduations into fifth density those of
the negative."
I remember there is more on this subject but I hope this will suffice. You also asked if "Is it that Moses was depressed when his message wasn't quite getting through?" What made you make this inference? Sorry I can't work out which bit you found unclear. If you paste the unclear bit I could try and clarify. As for why he was worried, I believe it is positive entities that are only worried about their own ascendence (in their case to a higher density negative planet), positive entities WILL be worried if their message gets distorted thus hindering their efforts in trying to help others.

Best piece of truth I have found so far: http://llresearch.or...of_one_pdf.aspx
A truly free society: https://sites.google...t-economy-today
The true history of our planet: http://www.floating-...rth_history.htm
Dialogues with The Absolute: unveiledsecretsandmessagesoflight.blogspot (dot) co (dot) uk/2011/08/eon-11aug2010.html
A wealth of metaphysical readings with a surprisingly high ratio of truth content: soulwise (dot) net/index-00.htm

#244    SlimJim22

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 04:58 PM

View PostRolci, on 13 February 2010 - 04:32 PM, said:

hello. Sorry, I'm not sure what you are unclear of. You SHOULD be skeptical of channeled entities, especially since some of the sessions, even though start channeling a positively oriented entity, end up, after asking the "wrong" questions, channeling a negatively oriented entity, whose "mission" is, among others, to carry on channeling seemingly positive messages but also including, most often, predictions with dates etc, which, later on, turn out to be false, thus ruining the group's reputation. L/L Research, with their decades of experience and staff with scientific background education, would and do recognize such anomalies, in fact they warn others of these dangers and also have educational material regarding channeling without getting tangled up with negative entities.
Ra, from whom they channeled over 100 times during the course of a couple of years in the early 80's, is a 6th density entity, which means they completed their 3rd density experience on Venus million of years ago and have moved on since through 4th and 6th density. Not sure you were asking about his orientation, but this might help:
"We are those who are of the Law of One. In our vibration the polarities are harmonized; the complexities are simplified; the paradoxes have a solution. We are one."
Also consider this:
"The sixth-density negative entity is extremely
wise. It observes the spiritual entropy occurring due to the lack of ability to
express the unity of sixth-density. Thus, loving the Creator and realizing at
some point that the Creator is not only self but other-self as self, this entity
consciously chooses an instantaneous energy reorientation so that it may
continue its evolution."
And also:
"Questioner: Then at fourth-density graduation into fifth is there anything
like that which you gave as the percentages necessary for third-density
graduation into fourth in polarization?
Ra: I am Ra. There are, in your modes of thinking, responses we can make,
which we shall make. However, the important point is that the graduations
from density to density do occur. The positive/negative polarity is a thing
which will, at the sixth level, simply become history. Therefore, we speak in
an illusory time continuum when we discuss statistics of positive versus
negative harvest into fifth. A large percentage of fourth-density negative
entities continue the negative path from fourth to fifth-density experience,
for without wisdom the compassion and desire to aid other-self is not
extremely well informed. Thus though one loses approximately two percent
moving from negative to positive during the fourth-density experience we
find approximately eight percent of graduations into fifth density those of
the negative."
I remember there is more on this subject but I hope this will suffice. You also asked if "Is it that Moses was depressed when his message wasn't quite getting through?" What made you make this inference? Sorry I can't work out which bit you found unclear. If you paste the unclear bit I could try and clarify. As for why he was worried, I believe it is positive entities that are only worried about their own ascendence (in their case to a higher density negative planet), positive entities WILL be worried if their message gets distorted thus hindering their efforts in trying to help others.


Ok I appreciate your coments but you may take a pasting for this convo. It has helped me understand a little. It is good that they teach to discriminate what is channelled and not be in awe. Vigilance is important when interacting with any entities I imagine. I did get a little confused but I'll read your post again later and try to digest the info. As far as Moses goes, I interpreted what you said originally aa being he was extremely positive entity but at his time of leaving was overcome with negativity. Maybe my imagination was running loose but you seem to have cleared it up. Psitive entities still worry but mainly because their efforts to help get distorted. Am I right in thinking negative entities generally hold the upper hand as a result of this? I'll have to read more before I can tackle questions of density and ascendancy to higher density negative planets I suppose. Good talking to ya.

Anyone have any comments on my points before we took a sidetrack with the entity known as Ra?  :devil:

"I belive no thing, I follow the Law of One. I am a Man-O'-Sion under construction."

#245    Rolci

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 05:29 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 13 February 2010 - 04:58 PM, said:

Ok I appreciate your coments but you may take a pasting for this convo. It has helped me understand a little. It is good that they teach to discriminate what is channelled and not be in awe. Vigilance is important when interacting with any entities I imagine. I did get a little confused but I'll read your post again later and try to digest the info. As far as Moses goes, I interpreted what you said originally aa being he was extremely positive entity but at his time of leaving was overcome with negativity. Maybe my imagination was running loose but you seem to have cleared it up. Psitive entities still worry but mainly because their efforts to help get distorted. Am I right in thinking negative entities generally hold the upper hand as a result of this? I'll have to read more before I can tackle questions of density and ascendancy to higher density negative planets I suppose. Good talking to ya.

Anyone have any comments on my points before we took a sidetrack with the entity known as Ra?  :devil:

don't mean to do more sidetracking, just thought to express my opinion of what "Moishe, did not remain a credible influence among those who had first heard the philosophy of One and this entity was removed from this third-density vibratory level in a lessened or saddened state, having lost, what you may call, the honor and faith with which he had begun the conceptualization of the Law of One and the freeing of those who were of his tribes, as they were called at that time/space." might mean. I think, just like with the case of channelings where negative entities distort the messages and give false interpretations and predictions, thusly ruining reputation, a similar event occurred with Moses. His reputation got wrecked and not long before he died (or maybe was killed? [the way I interpreted "removed"]) he was sad because he lost his enthusiasm that he had before the damage was done, anticipating a successful dissemination of the information he was in possession of. Other than this reading, and the Bible, I am not aware of evidence relating to the existence of Moses. Or maybe the stone tablets inside the Ark of Covenant that they found recently, but the authorities said they will not present it in public and will not share any info about the ark and its content. At least the ark seems to be real :D Oh, I just remembered, there is channeled info on the ark as well, even on where it would be found, which turned out to be true of course, and I have a few interesting websites about the ark. But nothing more about Moses, sorry.

Best piece of truth I have found so far: http://llresearch.or...of_one_pdf.aspx
A truly free society: https://sites.google...t-economy-today
The true history of our planet: http://www.floating-...rth_history.htm
Dialogues with The Absolute: unveiledsecretsandmessagesoflight.blogspot (dot) co (dot) uk/2011/08/eon-11aug2010.html
A wealth of metaphysical readings with a surprisingly high ratio of truth content: soulwise (dot) net/index-00.htm

#246    jaylemurph

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 06:08 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 13 February 2010 - 11:58 AM, said:

Thank you Jaylemurph I will certainly be more stringent in what I take in. You are right there is no real evidence for the Rosy Cross although that doesn't necessarily discount there existence. As you know I am in the habit of employing imagination when there is little else to go on. This has led me to contemplate the link with the druids as a rosy cross is similar to a celtic cross. Whether they existed or are a late falsification is no concern of mine but I refute the claims that mystery schools were a mnior or non existant part of ancient culture. The egyptians were heavy into the mystery rites and the Greeks had the Eluesian mysteries originating from egypt. Now you may not find this stuff in text books again it does not mean it has no truth. It is a fact that religions have inner and outer teachings. Judaism has Kaballah and gemtria, christianity had  gnosticism, again coming out of egypt and greece and Islam has sufism. Attempts to downplay the imporatnce of mysticism is foolish to me. I ain't buying nothing hook line and sinker but it all seems to fit together extremely well.

Jim, if you're seriously interested in learning about the history and belief of the Rosicrucians -- the real ones, that is, not the rather significant amount of pseudo-mystical claptrap that has been attached to them over the centuries -- I refer you to the book The Rosicrucian Enlightenment by Dame Francis Yates.

That sort of claptrap pales in comparison with the sort of things they were really doing -- trying to prevent the Thirty Years' War and setting the stage for the Scientific Revolution. The book also reprints all the material they actually published and sets it in to a historical and social context, allowing you to understand what much of their symbolism really meant. You'll find they never describe themselves as a secret society, never touted any ancient, hidden knowledge nor were ever anything other than just-slightly-liberal christian protestants. Then you'll be able to judge just how poorly informed later generations were in trying to hijack the Rosicrucians into some esoteric movement.

--Jaylemurph

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#247    SlimJim22

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 06:16 PM

View PostRolci, on 13 February 2010 - 05:29 PM, said:

don't mean to do more sidetracking, just thought to express my opinion of what "Moishe, did not remain a credible influence among those who had first heard the philosophy of One and this entity was removed from this third-density vibratory level in a lessened or saddened state, having lost, what you may call, the honor and faith with which he had begun the conceptualization of the Law of One and the freeing of those who were of his tribes, as they were called at that time/space." might mean. I think, just like with the case of channelings where negative entities distort the messages and give false interpretations and predictions, thusly ruining reputation, a similar event occurred with Moses. His reputation got wrecked and not long before he died (or maybe was killed? [the way I interpreted "removed"]) he was sad because he lost his enthusiasm that he had before the damage was done, anticipating a successful dissemination of the information he was in possession of. Other than this reading, and the Bible, I am not aware of evidence relating to the existence of Moses. Or maybe the stone tablets inside the Ark of Covenant that they found recently, but the authorities said they will not present it in public and will not share any info about the ark and its content. At least the ark seems to be real :D Oh, I just remembered, there is channeled info on the ark as well, even on where it would be found, which turned out to be true of course, and I have a few interesting websites about the ark. But nothing more about Moses, sorry.

All good man. I'd like to PM you sometime for some links and further discussion. If you have anything on the Ark you should definitely put it in the Ark of Axum thread. Nice talking to ya.

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#248    SlimJim22

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 06:18 PM

View Postjaylemurph, on 13 February 2010 - 06:08 PM, said:

Jim, if you're seriously interested in learning about the history and belief of the Rosicrucians -- the real ones, that is, not the rather significant amount of pseudo-mystical claptrap that has been attached to them over the centuries -- I refer you to the book The Rosicrucian Enlightenment by Dame Francis Yates.

That sort of claptrap pales in comparison with the sort of things they were really doing -- trying to prevent the Thirty Years' War and setting the stage for the Scientific Revolution. The book also reprints all the material they actually published and sets it in to a historical and social context, allowing you to understand what much of their symbolism really meant. You'll find they never describe themselves as a secret society, never touted any ancient, hidden knowledge nor were ever anything other than just-slightly-liberal christian protestants. Then you'll be able to judge just how poorly informed later generations were in trying to hijack the Rosicrucians into some esoteric movement.

--Jaylemurph
Cheers Jayle. I'll see if they've got it on scribd and will get back to you in da future. Maybe we could even start a thread on them to give evryone a heads up not to trust everything they read from fringeys.

"I belive no thing, I follow the Law of One. I am a Man-O'-Sion under construction."

#249    questionmark

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 06:56 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 13 February 2010 - 04:12 PM, said:

I'll go along with the majority of what you say... except that Pythagoras was into maths at the expense of spirit. I have no evidence but I would disagree. They were into sacred geometry and would have seen it in nature and may have made connections between God, the Universe and mans place in it. Math, music, spirit are all strings of the same instrument you could say. However, the thing that confuses things today is that secert socieities can't keep themselves secret I expect this would have been different in antiquity and this could explain the little or no evidence that we find.

No, the sacred mumbo-jumbo always was meant to keep "uninitiated" away, and some groups went to great length to keep the secrets, especially the medics.

That there is coherence between math and art, or that you can put one in relation to another, does not mean that one is dependent on (or related to) the other.

You can put the number of salmons going up the river in relation to the sunspots multiplied by red short skirts on First Avenue... that would not mean that without sunspots or red skirts there would be no salmons.

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#250    kmt_sesh

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Posted 16 February 2010 - 01:48 AM

View PostSlimJim22, on 13 February 2010 - 11:58 AM, said:

...

Kmt, not being one as educated as yourselves I am not one in a position to dismiss what you say, so sorry if what I have said contradicts you. See I see Athenian culture as an amalgam of others (currently reading Bernal) thus I see no reason why we cannot make comparisons between greek and egyptian gods. There could even be Phoenician influence and at a push Jewish. It was around the time of the captivity after all that you are saying was the time when greece started looking outwardly, could it not be due to migration of the tribes of Israel. Dannan crops up in greek as well as various other cultures. Ultimately, the greek mathematicians and philosophers WERE into mystery schools. See Pythagoras, Pindar and probably Plato and others. The question is really whether they were drawing on older mystery sources out of egypt?

Sorry, SlimJim22, I almost missed this post of yours. I think you know as well as I that you have every right to post material that contradicts something I or anyone else has written. Don't ever let anyone else tell you otherwise. As for myself, I will, of course, respond if something you wrote interests me of if I'm motivated to make a comment, based on my own knowledge base. I am the first to admit that knowledge base does not cover the culture of ancient Greece terribly well. I have never studied Greece to the extent I have Egypt and other ancient Near Eastern cultures. Most of what I've studied about Greece pertains to its interactions with Egypt and the Levant, as well as its military history in the wars against Persia and the Peloponnesian War, so that's pretty restricted.

I have no doubt that the culture that centered around Athens was inspired by neighboring peoples. That's true of all civilizations in that part of the world. You can certainly compare Greek gods with Egyptian gods, but in doing so I think you'll find that they actually do not have much in common. I imagine great Greek thinkers like Herodotus saw similarities in the roles of gods, such as in his own Zeus and the Egyptian Amun. Both happened to be the kings of the gods of their respective cultures, so there is that similarity, but when you dig deeper and delve into the fine details, you'll see that beyond the primary roles, these gods had little in common. And the religions of Greece and Egypt were very different, to boot.

The gods of foreigners certainly found their way into Egypt whenever foreigners migrated into Egypt. Egypt was quite accepting of foreign gods and melded many of them into their own culture, such as the Canaanite goddess Qetesh and the Nubian god Bes. We have no definitive evidence of Hebrews in Egypt until well after the New Kingdom--the time period to which the biblical Exodus is assigned--but of course ancient Hebrews migrated into Egypt, too. As with many Greeks, Hebrews were hired as mercenaries in the pharaoh's army. What's most interesting to me about the history of Hebrews in Egypt for which we can find evidence, is that they were unlike so many migrants who eventually adopted an Egyptian lifestyle. The Hebrews stuck to their worship of Yahweh and even built a temple for him at Elephantine in the Ptolemaic Period.

All right, I've prattled on long enough. I just wanted to reply to that post of yours, and besides, as I sit here waiting for the latest episode of 24, I'm really bored. :lol:

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#251    SlimJim22

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Posted 16 February 2010 - 02:06 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 16 February 2010 - 01:48 AM, said:

Sorry, SlimJim22, I almost missed this post of yours. I think you know as well as I that you have every right to post material that contradicts something I or anyone else has written. Don't ever let anyone else tell you otherwise. As for myself, I will, of course, respond if something you wrote interests me of if I'm motivated to make a comment, based on my own knowledge base. I am the first to admit that knowledge base does not cover the culture of ancient Greece terribly well. I have never studied Greece to the extent I have Egypt and other ancient Near Eastern cultures. Most of what I've studied about Greece pertains to its interactions with Egypt and the Levant, as well as its military history in the wars against Persia and the Peloponnesian War, so that's pretty restricted.

I have no doubt that the culture that centered around Athens was inspired by neighboring peoples. That's true of all civilizations in that part of the world. You can certainly compare Greek gods with Egyptian gods, but in doing so I think you'll find that they actually do not have much in common. I imagine great Greek thinkers like Herodotus saw similarities in the roles of gods, such as in his own Zeus and the Egyptian Amun. Both happened to be the kings of the gods of their respective cultures, so there is that similarity, but when you dig deeper and delve into the fine details, you'll see that beyond the primary roles, these gods had little in common. And the religions of Greece and Egypt were very different, to boot.

The gods of foreigners certainly found their way into Egypt whenever foreigners migrated into Egypt. Egypt was quite accepting of foreign gods and melded many of them into their own culture, such as the Canaanite goddess Qetesh and the Nubian god Bes. We have no definitive evidence of Hebrews in Egypt until well after the New Kingdom--the time period to which the biblical Exodus is assigned--but of course ancient Hebrews migrated into Egypt, too. As with many Greeks, Hebrews were hired as mercenaries in the pharaoh's army. What's most interesting to me about the history of Hebrews in Egypt for which we can find evidence, is that they were unlike so many migrants who eventually adopted an Egyptian lifestyle. The Hebrews stuck to their worship of Yahweh and even built a temple for him at Elephantine in the Ptolemaic Period.

All right, I've prattled on long enough. I just wanted to reply to that post of yours, and besides, as I sit here waiting for the latest episode of 24, I'm really bored. :lol:

I had all but forgotten about those comments but thanks for getting back to me. Since I posted those coments I have read some extracts from David Ickes' Biggest Secret. In which, he makes the claims that the entire OT was made up by Levite priests in Babylon on orders from the rptilian Babylonian Brotherhood. I don't believe a word of it but I thought it worthy of note as from what you and others have said, evidence of a hebrew people before the captivity is non-existant. So, I see three possibilities i) the orthodox view ii) Ickes' view iii) somewhere in the middle, in that it was manufactured to an extent but modified from pre-exisiting stories and allegories to fit the agenda at the time of writing. There are a few interesting points he mentions if you are interested in hearing more.

I have a couple of other points if you'll bare with me. With regard to the gods I see them fitting together pretty well but we are all inclined to see what we want. Amun Ra as a fusion of Ares and Zeus, consequence of the change of age. P'tah/Poseidon, Nut/Isis/Athena,Minerva, Geb/Hephestos, Thoth/Hermes, Osiris/Dionysus, Horus/Eros and even some diffusion with Sumeria such as Ereshikgal/Hathor/Persephone, Innana/Sekhmet/Artemis/Diana, Nanna/Khnum, etc. Obviously no evidence other than a gut feeling.

Last point regards the ethinicity. The egyptians seem to have always been a mixed race, pictures tell us as much and Pharoahs seem to have been both negroid and caucasian. The Upper Nile having black Pharoahs in the 1st and 18th dynasties but this being affected by the HYskos invasion as well as other white dynasties from the lower Nile. There is really little consequence of this unless some metaphysical attachment to melanin can be drawn as this would have given the black egyptians better means to converse with gods and perform magick of sorts. Interesting that Khem as in alchemy and egypt means black and melanin means black in greek.

Further, to this and I wonder if it is deserving of it's own thread is the gypsies. From India around 250bce migrating north possibly because of Alexanders invasion. They were then recruited to Persia as musicians and slowly passed into western Europe via Corfu. Known as Romani or Roma they are usually identified by dark complexions and their own unique culture. They have mystical ties and get the name gypsy from the erroneous suggestion that they harboured the infant Jesus in Egypt (gyp) before moving north along the coast of north Africa. I accept that this is not true except that they seem to have connections to the Therapeutae (i.e. magick). Don't know what to make of it until you read a folk tale about Jesus (possibly fabricated) whereby a gypsy maid steal one of the four nails from the Romans and this is why he was nailed with three nails rather than four. Obviously, particulalrly as the tale comes in other forms you think it is a later creation but there is siginifance attached to the three nail cross most prominently in the cathar sect. Sorry if it's a lot to adress I am totally befuddled by the matter. Any point anyone can raise would be much appreciated.


Hope you enjoyed Jack Bauer kicking air lol. me too

"I belive no thing, I follow the Law of One. I am a Man-O'-Sion under construction."

#252    Riaan

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Posted 18 February 2010 - 06:57 PM

I finally received my copies of Cyril Aldred's Akhenaten, King of Egypt, and Aidan Dodson's Amarna Sunset.

Regarding the Egyptian queen who wrote to the Hittite king Shuppiluliumash following the death of her husband, the following:

Dodson [Amarna Sunset, pp. 89-94] quotes the letter as ‘...their Lord Nipkhururiya had died...”. He stated earlier [p. 55] that Amenhotep III appeared in Akkadian as Nibmuariya, Akhenaten as Napkhuriya and Tutankhamun as Nibkhuriya, but later argues in favour of Tutankhamun being the deceased king.

Aldred however uses the form Nibhururiya [p. 229], which suggests that the translation of the Akkadian text is indeed not clear. Of the two forms of the name of the deceased king, Nipkhururiya is certainly closer to Napkhuriya (Akhenaten).

Aldred discusses the interpretation of a shawabti (a funerary figurine) of Nefertiti, which has the inscription: “The Heiress, high and mighty in the palace, one trusted [of the King of Upper and Lower Egypt (Neferkheperure, Wa’enre), the Son of Re (Akhenaten)∣, Great in] his Lifetime, the Chief Wife of the King (Neferneferuaten-Nefertiti)∣, Living for Ever and Ever”

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“Calcite shawabti of Nefertiti restored from two fragments... Like the king’s examples it carries the sceptres and emblems of regal power...” [Aldred, Figure 23, p. 230]

He then states that "The inscription on her shawabti also makes it clear that despite holding of kingly sceptres, the crook and the flail, the shawabti represented her as queen regnant and not as a co-regent in male attire".

To me as a novice this statement is highly confusing, if not non-sensical. The use of the words "heiress" and "high and mighty in the palace" in the inscription certainly seems to suggest that someone (her husband the king) had died, and the mention of Akhenaten, (who was) great in his lifetime also suggests that he was no longer alive, i.e. she had outlived him.

Furthermore, the kingly sceptres would indeed suggest that she was the true ruler of Egypt. Aldred's explanation that she was nevertheless no more than a queen seems to be forced and it hardly constitutes unequivocal proof that she was not a ruler of kingly status.

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#253    Riaan

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Posted 18 February 2010 - 07:36 PM

The best argument for the queen in question being Nefertiti would still be "Why write to a Hittite king for a husband?". Ankhesenamun, the wife of Tutankhamun and a true Egyptian, would certainly not have preferred a foreigner over an Egyptian nobleman.

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#254    cormac mac airt

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 08:36 PM

From "The Deeds of Suppiluliuma as Told by His Son, Mursili II":

Quote

Nipḫururiya, who was our lord, has died. A son of his does not exist. The wife of our lord is childless.

Whether Smenkhkare was or wasn't the brother (or son) of Akhenaten, Nefertiti was never childless. As Smenkhkare wouldn't have been on the throne long enough to make any real difference, the only real contender for a pharaoh without a son and a queen without children would have been Tutankhamun and Ankhesenamun. Ay, a commoner by birth, wouldn't be one to whom a queen would want on the throne.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#255    Riaan

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 09:30 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 19 February 2010 - 08:36 PM, said:

From "The Deeds of Suppiluliuma as Told by His Son, Mursili II":



Whether Smenkhkare was or wasn't the brother (or son) of Akhenaten, Nefertiti was never childless. As Smenkhkare wouldn't have been on the throne long enough to make any real difference, the only real contender for a pharaoh without a son and a queen without children would have been Tutankhamun and Ankhesenamun. Ay, a commoner by birth, wouldn't be one to whom a queen would want on the throne.

cormac

'Childless' may have confused with 'without a son', but nevertheless you may have a point.

Would you care to comment on why Ankhesenamun would have considered making a Hittite prince king of Egypt, effectively placing Egypt under foreign rule? Nefertiti is certainly speculated to have been of foreign origins, in which context it would make sense that she may have desired to have a non-Egyptian husband.

Author of Thera and the Exodus, published February 2013

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