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Who Wrecked the Balkans


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#46    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 08:57 PM

View PostGoodnite, on 17 June 2011 - 06:53 PM, said:

Whew what a mess. My prayer for Croatia is they leave you in peace.
Thank you. I believe we’re relatively safe at the moment ;)

View Postodas, on 17 June 2011 - 07:04 PM, said:

Well, we had more Prazinas then just him. Yes, he was a criminal but he helped save Sarajevo from the serbs in the begining.
Look, small kriminals were the ones who took up arms to defend the City. Ordinary people did not have guns and were scared, not ready for the war at all. Even in Croatia the one who were in trouble with the Law were the first to defend Croatia.
Of course, with the time he bacem a megaloman and was later assassinated, I believe in Holland or Belgium.
That’s true, average family people were not very happy with the idea of getting involved with smuggled weapons, shooting people and generally doing stuff that’s illegal in times of peace.
In my gang of friends, the most asocial were first to join Garda. I was sure they’ll kill each other before they get a chance to shoot at the enemy, but I was wrong, they actually grew up overnight and those who didn’t die turned from misbehaved brats into loyal fathers of their families after the war. Every evil for something good, I guess. We also had a vegetarian one, he was volunteering in the hospital, of course.  
To win a war you simply need few psychos but the problem starts when they survive the actual combat and start gaining actual power. That problem solves itself when common thugs are in question, their careers don't last long, far greater damage is still being done by slick profiteers that crawled into power.

View Postthe L, on 17 June 2011 - 07:45 PM, said:

Conclusion: Diana Johnstone is alternative historian. Nicely said. :innocent:
Who? Ah, the delusional chick from the OP... who cares :D

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#47    MichaelW

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 02:30 AM

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 17 June 2011 - 05:49 PM, said:

I usually don’t watch foreign interpretations of ex-Yu history, they are so painfully simplified and distorted I usually have outbursts of anger for weeks later.
But I could take a peek at it, if there’s any particular detail you wish to discuss?

Not really. I just thought you might have since it was created just after the main wars had finished. Considering it has intervews with Milosovic, Tudjman and Itzebegovic as well as others, I think it's worth a look, at least for us Westerners anyway.

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#48    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 09:41 PM

View PostMichaelW, on 18 June 2011 - 02:30 AM, said:

Not really. I just thought you might have since it was created just after the main wars had finished. Considering it has intervews with Milosovic, Tudjman and Itzebegovic as well as others, I think it's worth a look, at least for us Westerners anyway.
So I watched it... brings back memories.
It’s almost kind of objective, though I noticed few details and you know they say the devil is in the detail.

First, commentary mentions Serbian hereditary anxiety caused by past Croatian genocides but it never mentions past Serbian genocides and if Croats could possibly have any anxieties... or Bosnians... or Albanians... or any other non-Serbian ethnic group.
Second, it doesn’t mention Slovenian deal with Serbia, which was the reason why JNA withdrew out of Slovenia with no real war. But they skipped far bigger parts of the story, so I can live with this.
Third, when commentary says that Izetbegović wasn’t speaking for all Bosnians, since 1/3 of Bosnians are Serbs, it would be fair to add that Karadžić wasn’t speaking for all Bosnian Serbs neither, since all chetniks are Serbs, but not all Serbs are chetniks.
Fourth, the maps. If you can’t produce decent map, don’t put any map at all.
Fifth, we saw Morillon (UN) and heard about his Srebrenica adventure, a lot of space was given to some Venezuelan anonymous in the UN to babble about it, but we didn’t hear any Dutch. And they have so much to say about Srebrenica. Maybe Mladić will do that for them, if he doesn’t croak before his actual trial starts.
Sixth, in those rare seconds given to Croatia it has shown the tragedy (yes, it was a tragedy) of Serbian refugees, but we saw no Croatian refugees. Are Serbs more photogenic or authors are trying to hide something? Like, who the **** started to drive people out of their homes first? Also, it was not mentioned that Serbia organized that and chetniks were literally driving Serbs who wanted to stay in Croatia out of their homes.      
Seventh, either I’ve missed it completely, either authors of this film were not aware of Serbian aggression on Croatia at all.

All in all, on topic... I just remembered there’s the topic... in this film there’s just enough of actual footage that shows Holbrooke didn’t wreck Yugoslavia and that US played huge and positive role in ending the war.  
Sort of off topic but far more important, it’s in my opinion an acceptable documentary that doesn’t openly advertise any side. The really weird understanding of what was not important enough to be shown was of course deliberate downplay of Serbian bizarre imperialism but I assume anyone interested in the subject won’t stick to one source only and this one is just fine to start with.

Edited by Helen of Annoy, 18 June 2011 - 09:42 PM.

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#49    odas

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 11:21 PM

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 18 June 2011 - 09:41 PM, said:

So I watched it... brings back memories.
It’s almost kind of objective, though I noticed few details and you know they say the devil is in the detail.

First, commentary mentions Serbian hereditary anxiety caused by past Croatian genocides but it never mentions past Serbian genocides and if Croats could possibly have any anxieties... or Bosnians... or Albanians... or any other non-Serbian ethnic group.
Second, it doesn’t mention Slovenian deal with Serbia, which was the reason why JNA withdrew out of Slovenia with no real war. But they skipped far bigger parts of the story, so I can live with this.
Third, when commentary says that Izetbegović wasn’t speaking for all Bosnians, since 1/3 of Bosnians are Serbs, it would be fair to add that Karadžić wasn’t speaking for all Bosnian Serbs neither, since all chetniks are Serbs, but not all Serbs are chetniks.
Fourth, the maps. If you can’t produce decent map, don’t put any map at all.
Fifth, we saw Morillon (UN) and heard about his Srebrenica adventure, a lot of space was given to some Venezuelan anonymous in the UN to babble about it, but we didn’t hear any Dutch. And they have so much to say about Srebrenica. Maybe Mladić will do that for them, if he doesn’t croak before his actual trial starts.
Sixth, in those rare seconds given to Croatia it has shown the tragedy (yes, it was a tragedy) of Serbian refugees, but we saw no Croatian refugees. Are Serbs more photogenic or authors are trying to hide something? Like, who the **** started to drive people out of their homes first? Also, it was not mentioned that Serbia organized that and chetniks were literally driving Serbs who wanted to stay in Croatia out of their homes.      
Seventh, either I’ve missed it completely, either authors of this film were not aware of Serbian aggression on Croatia at all.

All in all, on topic... I just remembered there’s the topic... in this film there’s just enough of actual footage that shows Holbrooke didn’t wreck Yugoslavia and that US played huge and positive role in ending the war.  
Sort of off topic but far more important, it’s in my opinion an acceptable documentary that doesn’t openly advertise any side. The really weird understanding of what was not important enough to be shown was of course deliberate downplay of Serbian bizarre imperialism but I assume anyone interested in the subject won’t stick to one source only and this one is just fine to start with.

People do not want to realize that there was no real muslim army as they want to portray the Bosnian Army.
Just a few numbers:
30% of the Bosnian Army was Serbs.
20% was Croats ( actualy the number is higher if we count Zivinicke Ose, HOS, )
The Army General was Jovan Divjak, a Serb.
The second to him was Stjepan Siber, a Croat.
So, the "muslim army" was led by Serbian and Croatian Generals.
Thruth is the Bosnian Army was what the name sais, Bosnian. Muslims (Bosniaks), Catholics (Croats), Orthodox (Serbs), in short BOSNIANS who loved Bosnia and felt Bosnian. Bosnia IS the home of all faiths and nationalities. It was like that before Yugoslavia and not just a smaller YU as many want to say.
Even before the Ottomans came to Bosnia there were still Bosnian Bogumils (majority later converted to Islam ) Croats and Serbs. But this is far to back to make it a topic now so I will leave it by that.


#50    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 08:12 AM

View Postodas, on 18 June 2011 - 11:21 PM, said:

People do not want to realize that there was no real muslim army as they want to portray the Bosnian Army.
Just a few numbers:
30% of the Bosnian Army was Serbs.
20% was Croats ( actualy the number is higher if we count Zivinicke Ose, HOS, )
The Army General was Jovan Divjak, a Serb.
The second to him was Stjepan Siber, a Croat.
So, the "muslim army" was led by Serbian and Croatian Generals.
Thruth is the Bosnian Army was what the name sais, Bosnian. Muslims (Bosniaks), Catholics (Croats), Orthodox (Serbs), in short BOSNIANS who loved Bosnia and felt Bosnian. Bosnia IS the home of all faiths and nationalities. It was like that before Yugoslavia and not just a smaller YU as many want to say.
Even before the Ottomans came to Bosnia there were still Bosnian Bogumils (majority later converted to Islam ) Croats and Serbs. But this is far to back to make it a topic now so I will leave it by that.
I agree with all except Bogumils. When Ottoman Empire came Bogumils were in small number. BiH was populated by Croats and Serbs. They were main population in BiH. Number of Bogumils was irrelvant. It was Bosniaks theory that their ancestors are Bogumils. Well they are but in very very small percentage. Its like Albanians are saying that Illyrians were they ancestors. Which is wrong.

Its like American claim that native americans were they ancestors. They are but in what number? Guess what? Recently I heared hypothesis how Illyrians were Bosniaks ancestors. :w00t:

Edited by the L, 19 June 2011 - 08:17 AM.

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For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#51    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 09:08 AM

Posted Image

Helen this doucment is order of Serbian leader Milan Martić ,on 4th August 1994 , in which he ordered Serbs to leave Croatia.
On another hand Tudjman was calling them to stay in their country Croatia.

Yes it was tragedy but then again we see who made that tragedy. Serbs.

And that peacefull Serbs in so called Krajna(paramilitary in Croatia) have had 200 tanks. Nothing more nothing less.
Same as legal army of Croatia -HV. Just for record.

Edited by the L, 19 June 2011 - 09:13 AM.

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For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#52    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 09:21 AM

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 17 June 2011 - 08:57 PM, said:


Who? Ah, the delusional chick from the OP... who cares :D
Yes. That is right word but I wanted to stay polite. Oh Serbs have nothing with war in ex-yu it was Americans fault.
She is so wrong on so many level.

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For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#53    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 12:24 PM

View Postthe L, on 19 June 2011 - 08:12 AM, said:

I agree with all except Bogumils. When Ottoman Empire came Bogumils were in small number. BiH was populated by Croats and Serbs. They were main population in BiH. Number of Bogumils was irrelvant. It was Bosniaks theory that their ancestors are Bogumils. Well they are but in very very small percentage. Its like Albanians are saying that Illyrians were they ancestors. Which is wrong.

Its like American claim that native americans were they ancestors. They are but in what number? Guess what? Recently I heared hypothesis how Illyrians were Bosniaks ancestors. :w00t:
Hmm, no.
I think the Native American analogy doesn’t work here.
First, we (nations in this region, namely Croats, Bosnians and Serbs) are very similar mixtures of the same genomes, descendants of same tribes in similar ratios. There is no natives/newcomers distinction over here, since the true natives (Illyrians and Celts) were assimilated, and each of us carries at least some of their chromosomes.    
(Reminds me of very amusing discussions regarding last Y chromosome research that confirmed South Slavic nations are 1/3 to ¼ European natives, Illyrians and Celts, the rest is Slavic and Germanic, I won't touch Turkish issue this time... hehehe... which is triumph of alikeness for some and triumph of difference for others :lol: )

So, I agree with odas. The theory of minor Bogumil presence in Bosnia was forced by Christian churches (Catholic and Orthodox) and later Croatian and Serbian expansionist nationalism.
Silly thing is, you don’t need religion to homogenize a nation, but extremists are never too clever people, they always use the old and simple tricks. Join us or else... yeah, right. I’m doing the else my whole life and I’m still alive.
It’s popular to limit certain nation to one religion, but that’s relatively new and totally counterproductive concept.
Medieval Bosnia was Bogumil, home of the most beautiful heresy ever, mother of Catharism.
“Dobri krstjani” (good Christians) or “dobri ljudi” (good people), that will later be Occitan “bonhomme” (good man), was term used for Bogumils, though it sounds like it was meant for generally anyone who was not an *******.
The exact dates and ways of spreading the Bogumil teaching is debatable, but its leading role in pre-Ottoman Bosnia is the fact.


View Postthe L, on 19 June 2011 - 09:08 AM, said:

Posted Image

Helen this doucment is order of Serbian leader Milan Martić ,on 4th August 1994 , in which he ordered Serbs to leave Croatia.
On another hand Tudjman was calling them to stay in their country Croatia.

Yes it was tragedy but then again we see who made that tragedy. Serbs.

And that peacefull Serbs in so called Krajna(paramilitary in Croatia) have had 200 tanks. Nothing more nothing less.
Same as legal army of Croatia -HV. Just for record.
Thanks, it’s there for all to see. All who can read Cyrillic and understand Serbian, that is :D
So it says (literal translation, everything in brackets is my comment, three fullstops mark the unreadable parts):

Republic of Srpska Krajina
Supreme Defence Council
Knin, August 04th 1995
16.45
Number 2-3113-1/95

Due to recent situation development (...) open general aggression of Republic of Croatia on Republic of Srpska Krajina and after first initial successes in defence, the large part of territories of North Dalmatia and part of Lika are in danger, therefore
WE DESIDE (they probably meant “decide”, it reads “ohlučujemo” instead of “odlučujemo”)
1. To start (...) evacuation of all population unfit for combat out of opštine (counties) Knin, Benkovac, Obrovac, Drniš i Gračac.
2. Evacuation is to be conducted (...) according to prepared plans (...) direction Otrić towards Srb and Lapac.
3. For evacuation (...) has to be asked from UNPROFOR CommAND (I think whoever typed this was in a huRRY) with headquarters in Knin.
Knin, August 04th 1995

President of the Republic
Milan Martić

Signed at 17.20 on August 04th 1995 and classified under above code.    
      


The source is probably one of books written by Croatian Serbs forced to exile by Milošević’s regime. I know for a fact that not every Serb was into this Greater Serbia crap, but they were all forced to pay the price. Only those who were on unoccupied Croatian teritorry could stay, because my freaking government, clumsy and unfit as it was, made it possible.
It would be highly interesting to see the statistic - what percentage of Serbs from Croatia left from parts that were not under Milošević's control. It would clear this issue once and for all, that's why such statistic is not made yet. But it will be if I ever rise to power :lol:

The tragedy is that Serbs in Croatia today have representatives who are professional Serbs and instead of working on hammering peaceful coexistence into average heads, work on inventing tensions because that’s what they live on.
If Serbs in Croatia would become simply Serbs in Croatia, like there are Hungarians or Czech or Italians or Slovenes or you name it in Croatia – what would make their politicians more special than others and what would thus give them more special benefits?

Edited by Helen of Annoy, 19 June 2011 - 12:35 PM.

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#54    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 05:33 PM

My analogy is fine.  :devil:
What I was trying to tell is: That number of Bogumils were irrelevant when we talking about Bosniaks ancestors. Bosniaks were almost 95% Croats and Serbs that were changed they religion on Islam. Forced or gladly. When I said forced I always remember one old lady from middle Bosnia with tattoos of snow flakes and crosses on her hands. They get that tattooes when she was 1 years old. It was custom of middle Bosnia Croats that survived till today. When Ottomans came in Bosnia, Croats used to tattooed their children on hands with crosses and snow flakes. Because Turks didnt take them as they slaves if their have tattoos of cross or similar. Croats realized that and rest is history. Thats how they survived Islamization.

At least that what Croats in middle Bosnia said.

Here interesting motives they liked to tattoo.
Posted Image
Posted Image


I forgot the reasons why they took non Islamic girls is to produce young Janissary for Ottoman empire. And boys were taken to become Janissary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissary


EDIT: On turkish Janissary means new soldiers. I must say that idea was- brilliant. From military perspective ofcourse.


From wiki


The first Janissary units were formed from prisoners of war and slaves, probably as a result of the sultan taking his traditional one-fifth share of his army's booty in kind rather than cash.[3] From the 1380s onwards, their ranks were filled under the devşirme system, where feudal dues were paid by service to the sultan.[3] The "recruits" were mostly Christian youths, reminiscent of Mamelukes.[1] Sultan Murad may have used futuwa groups as a model.
Initially the recruiters favoured Greeks (who formed the largest part of the first units) and Albanians (who also served as gendarmes), usually selecting about one boy from forty houses, but the numbers could be changed to correspond with the need for soldiers. Boys aged 14–18 were preferred, though ages 8–20 could be taken."[4] Recruits were sometimes gained through voluntarily accessions, as some parents were often eager to have their children enroll in the Janissary service that ensured them a successful career and comfort.[12]
As borders of the Ottoman Empire expanded, the devşirme was extended to include Bulgarians, Croats, Serbs, and later Romanians, Georgians, Poles, Ukrainians and southern Russians. The Janissaries first began enrolling outside the devşirme system during the reign of Sultan Murad III (1574-1595) and abandoned devşirme recruitment completely during the 17th century. After this period, volunteers were enrolled, mostly of Muslim origin.[10]
The Janissaries’ reputation increased to the point that by 1683, Sultan Mehmet IV abolished the devşirme, as increasing numbers of originally Muslim Turkish families had already enrolled their own sons into the force hoping for a lucrative career



Bah- they all dint know about tattoo trick like those Croats from middle Bosnia. :w00t:

Edited by the L, 19 June 2011 - 05:46 PM.

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For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#55    odas

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 01:48 PM

View Postthe L, on 19 June 2011 - 05:33 PM, said:

My analogy is fine.  :devil:
What I was trying to tell is: That number of Bogumils were irrelevant when we talking about Bosniaks ancestors. Bosniaks were almost 95% Croats and Serbs that were changed they religion on Islam. Forced or gladly. When I said forced I always remember one old lady from middle Bosnia with tattoos of snow flakes and crosses on her hands. They get that tattooes when she was 1 years old. It was custom of middle Bosnia Croats that survived till today. When Ottomans came in Bosnia, Croats used to tattooed their children on hands with crosses and snow flakes. Because Turks didnt take them as they slaves if their have tattoos of cross or similar. Croats realized that and rest is history. Thats how they survived Islamization.

At least that what Croats in middle Bosnia said.




L. I will start first with the Albanians. Albanians were a tribe of Illyrs. Some other tribes were Ardiaei,
Deretini, Cavi, Deuri and many more.
The first historical account of the tribe Albani was 150 AD documented in a work of Ptolmey.
Since you already tried to compare it with the Native Americans it is the same like with the tribes of Sioux, Apache, Blackfoot.....and so on. While they are different in tribes they are all the first known inhabitants of the Americas. Or, we also can put it this way, the Bavarians, the Hessens, the Pruss....were all German tribes nevertheles we call them all Germans. So, yes, the Albanians are descended from the Illyrs.

As for the Bogumils. You either unknowingly fall into the Serbian history trapp regarding Bosnia or it could be the Croatian version of it.
95% of midevel Bosnia was not Croats and Serbs but Bosnians with different religious views. Most of them were Bosnina Bogumils which had their own Bosinan Church. While many if not most of them had names simmilar to Croatian names their religion was Bogumils, which was considered a heretic religioun by both, the catholic and orthodox church (man, you guys gave us always a hard time for some reason). Bogumils called themslf the good christians, the good Bosniaks ( dobri bosnjani ). They even had their own scripture, the Bosnancica.
Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia....tephen_Kulinić

The Bosnian Church spread greatly across Bosnia and even further, throughout Croatia, southern Hungary and the Seaside and even went as far as Northern Italy and southern France during his reign. It became very illfamed in Rome and Buda - in the first because of its heretical teachings and opposings of the Roman Catholic Church, and in the latter because of its political influence amongst the Bosnians in Bosnia - which was a Hungarian vassalage. Stjepan's Bosnia was thus characterized as being half-Barbaric. Furious because of this, Pope Honorius III dispatched in 1221 his legate, Aconcius, to Bosnia, to determinate the status of the Bosnian heresy. Aconcius said that the Bogumils spread Bogumilism over there just as younglings are being breast-fed. The Pope complained to the Hungarian King Andrews and the Hungarian Bishoprics to destroy the Bosnian Bogomils, calling for a Crusade. King Andrews was fighting inner conflicts, so he could not heed the Papacy's callings. The Roman Catholic Archbishop of Kaločki, wanted to lead the Crusade against Bosnia if the Pope promised that Bosnia would be ecclesiastically subjected to him; and so the Pope asked him to keep his promise in 1225. That year by Pope's edict Bosnia, Soli and Usora was transferred to Bishop Ugrin of Kalocs' suzeiranity from the coastal Dalmatian bishoprics. The Archbishop negotiated with the ruler of Srem to launch a joint operation in Bosnia. The Archbishop dispatched John Angelo of Srem, the nephew of the Hungarian King and a Byzantine emigrant to lead a military attempt into Bosnia.

It is because of these anti-Bogumil activities Stjepan was deposed by the Bogumils in 1232, when a disorder caught Hungary. His throne was seized by Matej Ninoslav. He retired to his son, Sibislav, who ruled as Prince of Usora. There he died in 1236.

The story of the Bogumils is widely accepted by foreign historians, Germans, Italians, Austrians, Hungarians...but it is questiond and denied and fabricated by serbian "historians" and some Croatians.
The reason is the legitmet statehood of Bosnia as a seperate Kingdom, a country in it's (more or less) same borders as today. The bogumils, the Church of Bosnia, and the Bosnian Kings are proof of it's thousadn year independed statehood which undermines all efforts of it's neighbours to anex Bosnia and call Bosnia their own.


#56    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 02:22 PM

@Odas
Im confused. Its not what I learned in school. Wait a minute. Acording to you:

Bogumils were nation? Faith?
Did they have had their kingdom? Empire?
What language they used to talk?
Is there any known maps of their "state"?
How come that they practice "christianity/gnosticism"?
On what territory they lived?
Did they have any special customs, traditions?
Is what you trying to tell me that Bosniaks were different Slaven tribe that came in Area of BiH?


About Albanians-thats whole new debate in which I dont want to participate. Anyway I highly disagree with you. Main reason why is that theory is popular is because of their language. And that is whole new and big debate. Im participating in one debate about it for half year on another forum. Remember that Illyrians were from Alps to ancient Greek. Then came Slavens. Ottomans. ...Who didnt came?
Just to take paralel. It like Croats on Zadar, Hvar..  called them Liburnians. Or Dalmatians called themselves Illyrian tribe Dalmatians, Or Istrians Histri?
Whole area is mix of different civilizations. And that Illyrians Albanians somehow survived pure is just SF to me. And on that area there were only Illyrian-Thraco tribes also Dacians. Fromm early day in that area is not just Illyrians. Also rfist written evidence of word Albanian came from 11 century.
For me it just way to much....We all have Illyrians blood in our selves but to call Illyrians our ancestors is funny.
Anyway I disagree. Do I need to say more then that is just hypothesis.

Recently I read that Albanians ancestors were Pelasgians. Cmon. :w00t: Whats next? Hittite origin? Cant wait...

Albanians are just albanians. They probably have Illyrian blood in themselves. Same as Croats, Serbs, Slovenians and Bosniaks. Oh yes Albanians have turkish blood in them, dacian, thracian, greek, slavens...

Thats why I love Archaeology and Antropology-no more myths.

@Helen

Those so called Celts were just Illyrians tribes.Japodes, Pannonians, Breuci, Scorisci.
For example Japodes according to Strabo: they have had celtic armor but that they have tattoos like Illyrians.


@Odas
How many Bogumils lived in Bosna before Turks came?
How many Croats?
How many Serbs?

Edited by the L, 20 June 2011 - 03:05 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#57    odas

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 03:11 PM

View Postthe L, on 20 June 2011 - 02:22 PM, said:

@Odas
Im confused. Its not what I learned in school. Wait a minute. Acording to you:

Bogumils were nation? Faith?
Did they have had their kingdom? Empire?
What language they used to talk?
Is there any known maps of their "state"?
How come that they practice "christianity/gnosticism"?
On what territory they lived?
Did they have any special customs, traditions?
Is what you trying to tell me that Bosniaks were different Slaven tribe that came in Area of BiH?


@Odas
How many Bogumils lived in Bosna before Turks came?
How many Croats?
How many Serbs?


The Kingdom of medieval Bosnia - The State of Bosnia and Herzegovina
The Medieval Bosnian state is one of the oldest in Europe:

The Medieval Bosnian state was autonomous until it was conquered by the Turkish Ottoman Empire back in 1463, an invasion lead by a major historical figure, Sultan Mehmed the Conqueror.

The population was mainly affiliated with the Bogumil religion; they did not recognise rule by the Catholic Pope, nor did they recognise the Orthodox Church.

Before ultimately falling under Turkish rule, two major powerful forces were scrambling to take Bosnia: the Hungarian and the Turkish Empires. Placed in-between the hammer and the anvil, too small and too weak to defend itself, but also divided by religious intolerance, the Bosnian state finally fell under the Turkish Empire, which would continue its rule for the next 500 years.

Once the Bosnian kingdom fell, the last Bosnian royal dynasty also fell. Throughout its tumultuous history, even after the departure of the Turks, Bosnia would be ruled by many states, and various ideologies would refract across its territory.

Sarajevo professor, archeologist and historian Enver Imamovic, from the Faculty of Philosophy in Sarajevo, recently completed a genealogical tree of the Bosnian royal families. The project was presented to the public, attracting huge interest.

During its statehood, Bosnia’s ruling family was the Kotromanics. Imamovic’s tree shows all of the kings, queens, and their children — princesses and princes.

“Even before me, a number of historians clearly determined that the Kotromanic family dynasty is of fully domestic roots in Bosnia. They were our rulers, rooted in the early Middle Ages, on the territory of the present Central Bosnia, in the area surrounding the towns of Fojnica, Kresevo and Kiseljak,” Imamovic said.

“This area used to be called ‘royal land’ in the Middle Ages. This was royal property, and because the area was exceptionally rich in the Medieval period, involving mines of gold, silver, copper, iron and lead, this family first grew economically, and then politically. The kingdom expanded until the whole of Bosnia was unified,” he said.

The result of many years of research was presented in an artistic placard showing the history of Bosnia in the period spanning the past 700 years. Two academic painters from Sarajevo were also involved in the project.

The documents required to put the placard together came from the archives of Dubrovnik, Ankara, Italy, Germany, Austria, Hungary and Bulgaria.

“I spared [neither] effort nor money and I can see it has all paid off. We have a wonderful document, very significant, from the historical, political, educational and artistic aspect. I have been told that kindergartens are interested in purchasing this placard, because children want to see Bosnian princesses,” the professor said.

Coat of arms of the Kingdom of Bosnia during the reign King Tvrtko I of the Royal Family Kotromanić:

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#58    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 03:16 PM

Let me tell you truth:

Bogomils- number cca 80 000
Croats- 600 000
Serbs 70 000

Before Turks.


Bogomils were sect.


Odas, I must say you are subjective here.
Read this:


The first auspices of a Bosnian identity begun in the thirteenth century, when a Bosnian kingdom centred on the river Bosna emerged. However, it was not until the Ottoman occupation of Europe that Bosniaks became distinct from surrounding Slavs, as Islam's self-identifying role for the Bosniaks was similar to that played by Catholicism for the Croats and Orthodoxy for the Serbs.[31]
Many features of Bosniaks' biological, cultural and linguistic origins can be traced back to the Migration Period of the Early Middle Ages. It was then that the Slavs, a people from northeastern Europe, colonized the Eastern Roman Empire with their Avar allies and settled in the regions which now comprise modern-day Bosnia and Herzegovina. Here, they assimilated scattered remnants of the tribes generically referred to as Illyrians, who were the earliest attestable inhabitants of the region.


By wiki

I sure know who was Tvrtko Kotormanić.

Agree on that part but Bogomils theory is funny my friend.

The population was mainly affiliated with the Bogumil religion; they did not recognise rule by the Catholic Pope, nor did they recognise the Orthodox Church. :w00t:

Edited by the L, 20 June 2011 - 03:20 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#59    odas

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 03:22 PM

Bogumils were christians who were not catholics or orthodox.
Bosnia was a nation, just like Croatia or Serbia.
Of course they had their Kingdom. I the peak Bosnia held much of Serbia and Croatia as far as Zadar. (historical fact).
There are numerous maps of Bosnia in medivel times.
In fact they had customs and traditions. Bogumil church had no pope but elders. Women, as oposed to catholicsm and orhthodoxie, were holding the same status as man in the bosnian church.
Yes. Bosnians were a different Slavic tribe. Even the serbian history could not deny it. According to their history the first slavic tribe to come to balkans was serbs, then croats and then the bosnian tribe.
Some would like to scratch this out but they can not.

L, Croats, Serbs and Bosnian Slavic tribe did not came to balkans as catholics, orthodox or bogumils. They came as pagans who with the time accepted christianity by a gentle push of Rome.

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Edited by odas, 20 June 2011 - 03:26 PM.


#60    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 03:28 PM

Odas you are clever and smart guy, openminded thats how I see you. Nobody say thing about Kingdom of Bosnia. But Bogomils hypothesis -that cant swallow.
Please help me to understand your point of view.

Please answer me these questions.

Bogumils were nation? Faith?
Did they have had their kingdom? Empire?
What language they used to talk?
Is there any known maps of their "state"?
How come that they practice "christianity/gnosticism"?
On what territory they lived?
Did they have any special customs, traditions?
Is what you trying to tell me that Bosniaks were different Slaven tribe that came in Area of BiH?
How many Bogumils lived in Bosna before Turks came?
How many Croats?
How many Serbs?

Yes Odas. What Im trying to tell you that todays Bosniaks were Slavens. Mostly Croats and Serbs then Bogomils. That took Islam.

Number of bogomils is 10%.
For Bosniaks slavic tribe in never heard. But Croat and Serb slavic tribe I am. Sorry Odas, please understand me. Trying to learn from you. You are glad to me and all....

Edited by the L, 20 June 2011 - 03:33 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."




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