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Historical criticism: "Moving" dates & places

historical criticism historical-critical method science history of science scientific methods

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#31    Antilles

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 01:23 PM

Good to read that someone else isn't enjoying this didactic thread.

You need to loosen up man.


#32    Proclus

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 02:38 PM

View Postthe L, on 02 January 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

Im. Because I know what Herodotus didnt knew.
How come that he wrote 11340 instead of 3000?
Did they count years differently???

No. It's more complicated. The Egyptians lived with a calendar of 365 days, so one year is almost exactly one year for them. The mistake was done elsewhere: It has to do with the Saitic priests forging their ancestry in order to justify their position in the temple. Herodotus took these forged genealogies for truth and brought them in connection with the king list he heard elsewhere. The result was a big misinterpretation. Details can be found in this book: Franke, Mit Herodot auf den Spuren von Atlantis, 2006; German only.

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#33    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 03:41 PM

While we want to know the real facts about this or that, what precise date such and such event happened, I think it is more important that we know in which order events happened. For instance, I doesn't really matter  if Rameses II lived 5 000 years ago instead of 3 200, approx. But it matters if we put his life and times before, say, Akhenaten, or pyramid building. Gross errors clearly, but if we don't know the correct timeline, what followed what, cause and effect as it were, then we are in trouble. Knowing precise dates working back from our time is far less important. We must know in what order events happend. This is one of the areas were Fomenko falls very heavily on his face.

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri, 02 January 2013 - 03:43 PM.


#34    Proclus

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 05:14 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 02 January 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

While we want to know the real facts about this or that, what precise date such and such event happened, I think it is more important that we know in which order events happened.

That's a good thought. Knowing the order is indeed more important. There are a lot of relative chronologies.
Concerning Plato's Atlantis we know for example, that Herodotus' king Menes lived before the date Plato gives for Atlantis.
Isn't this exciting? Both were dated wrong but this order could help us find Atlantis!

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#35    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:54 PM

View PostProclus, on 03 January 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

That's a good thought. Knowing the order is indeed more important. There are a lot of relative chronologies.
Concerning Plato's Atlantis we know for example, that Herodotus' king Menes lived before the date Plato gives for Atlantis.
Isn't this exciting? Both were dated wrong but this order could help us find Atlantis!

But how do you know that Herodotus and Plato have made same mistake or count years in same manner?

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For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#36    Proclus

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 08:52 AM

View Postthe L, on 03 January 2013 - 10:54 PM, said:

But how do you know that Herodotus and Plato have made same mistake or count years in same manner?

Philology brought to light that Plato not only knew the works of Herodotus (this is anyway clear) but also used them affirmingly in this case. Nobody of the Greeks questioned the dates given by Herodotus. To the contrary. Plato speaks in the Laws of 10000 years +X of age for Egypt. You can rely on this. It's "official" science, not my own idea.

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#37    Abramelin

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 08:54 AM

I always found the next idea concernig the source of Plato's Atlantis story to be quite enlightening:



Most theories about Atlantis have been constructed by believers, who have identified its 'real' site in myriad locations from the British Isles and Greenland to Carthage and Thera. On the other side are the sceptics who have dismissed the search for Atlantis as futile. Many years ago I decided that the only way forward was to suspend any naive hope of finding a 'real' Atlantis, and to concentrate instead on the key question: can we identify a source behind Plato's claims? It had an unexpected bonus.

The crux of the problem is the supposed Egyptian connection. The ancient Egyptians took a dim view of foreigners and the idea that they preserved a detailed tradition describing two remote civilizations - Atlantis and its rival Athens - is highly improbable. Even more far-fetched is the idea that the Egyptians, who took pride in being the 'oldest' civilization, could have recorded events which took place a thousand years before their own beginnings.

Alternatively, is it possible that Plato was right that Solon gathered the story on his travels, but mistaken in assuming that this was during his famous visit to Egypt? Solon travelled elsewhere, notably to the kingdom of Lydia in western Anatolia (Turkey). There, at the court of king Croesus - proverbial for his riches, but historical nonetheless - Solon is said to have swopped stories not only with the king, but with the great fable-writer Aesop.

It was to Anatolia that many other clues began to lead, beginning with Atlas, the famous Titan of Greek myth who was condemned to the edge of the world to support the skies when his race was defeated by Zeus and the Olympians. Atlas, Plato tells us, was the first king - and eponym - of Atlantis. Analysis of the myths surrounding Atlas and his family suggests that the Greeks believed that his 'home', before he was banished to the west (i.e. the 'Atlantic'), lay to the east and that the Greeks may have learnt the idea of the sky-supporting giant from that quarter. This is confirmed by a mass of pictorial and literary evidence from the Hittite civilization of Bronze Age Anatolia, which provides exact parallels to the classical Greek concept of Atlas.

It was a short step from there to see what the classical traditions of Anatolia - and in particular Lydia - had to say about the 'original' Atlas. Classical scholars have long accepted that another mythological figure, Tantalus, is essentially a Lydian version of Atlas. Tantalus, too, crossed the Olympians, and was condemned to an eternal torment which gave us the word 'tantalise'. In the version given by Homer his punishment was everlasting hunger and thirst, but the more common tale was of a rock which perpetually swayed over his head. Other versions say he was attached to the rock, that he was condemned to support it and that the 'rock' was the sky itself. And Tantalus, like Atlas, is once thought to have ruled an earthly kingdom. When Tantalus was struck by Zeus' lightning for his sins, the city he founded was shattered by an earthquake and drowned beneath a lake. The name of his city was Tantalis.

I could have stopped with this bizarre mixture of cosmological myth and local tradition. There was already enough circumstantial evidence to vindicate Plato's claim that he had not invented the Atlantis story. His putative source, Solon, could have picked up in Lydia the story of Tantalis which had all the key elements for its later exaggeration into Atlantis - from its fabulous wealth and transient empire to its catastrophic transformation into a 'sunken kingdom'. As Tantalus was identified with Atlas, the scene could have been mistakenly transferred to the far west, the location of Atlas after his downfall. Once in the Atlantic, the story of the 'sunken kingdom' could grow uncontrollably during its retelling through the generations from Solon to Plato.

However, I was tempted to go further: could the site of the legendary Tantalis be located, and did such a place ever exist? Clues from classical writers such as Pausanias made it clear that Tantalus' lost city was believed to lie near Mount Sipylus, modern Manisa Dagh, twenty or so miles inland from the modern port of Izmir (Smyrna) on the Aegean coast. Classical writers describe Tantalis/Sipylus not only as the original capital of Lydia, but as the ancestral seat of the Mycenaean kings. Substance was given to this by a lengthy text from the archives of the Hittite Emperors, composed about 1400 BC, describing the troubles they had with a vassal ruler from a western vassal in league with the Mycenaeans. His seat, 'the mountain land of Zippasla', can be reasonably located in Lydia, and identified with Sipylus. Slice by slice, the ruler of Zippasla (Madduwattas by name) swallowed up all the smaller states of western and southern Anatolia and even challenged Hittite authority in Cyprus. How far the men from Zippasla got is hard to say - but Hittite authority was only properly re-established in Anatolia some fifty years later.

If the kingdom of Zippasla lay at Sipylus, where was its capital? Here history, archaeology and legend seem to converge neatly. When I went to Turkey in 1994 it was not too difficult to locate the site of legendary Tantalis. Until about thirty years ago there was a small lake just to the north of Mt Sipylus and a few miles away from a magnificent (and almost undatable) rock-cut tomb which Pausanias described as 'the by-no-means inglorious grave' of king Tantalus. A hundred and fifty years ago the lake was much bigger, and I was pleased, after doing the initial groundwork, to find that 19th-century scholars, including Sir James Frazer, had already identified it as the spot where the ancients believed the lost city lay submerged underwater. As the location for a real city, it would be hard to improve: it lies on a fertile plain between the ancient caravan route skirting the mountain and the river Gediz, main artery of Lydia. Yet we are not reliant on merely theoretical considerations. Three hundred feet up the mountain-side a thirty-foot sculpture of a Mother Goddess gazes out over the very spot where Tantalis was thought to lay. Pausanias claimed that it was carved by the son of Tantalus and that it dates to the Late Bronze Age is undeniable - from its style and from the Hittite hieroglyphics which were incised into the carving about the 13th century BC.

It would be strange to imagine that this unique sculpture was not prepared for the worship of a highly organised community, settled in the plain below. For this, and a host of other reasons, I am happy to believe that here there was once an important Late Bronze Age centre. Most likely it was the Zippasla of the Hittite documents and almost certainly it was the Sipylus or Tantalis of classical texts. For its fate we only have the traditions to go on, but the belief that it was totally devastated by an earthquake is not outlandish. The Izmir region, as travellers to Turkey will know, lies in one of the worst earthquake zones of the world, while the appalling damage suffered by the cities of Lydia during the great earthquake of AD 17 is well documented. Hopefully excavation will one day determine whether a Bronze Age city at Mt Sipylus - like the Atlantis of legend - was really destroyed by an earthquake and consigned to a watery grave.


http://www.knowledge.../xxx/cat/james/

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Edited by Abramelin, 04 January 2013 - 08:55 AM.


#38    Abramelin

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 08:59 AM

Add to that that "Atlantis" is an anagram of "Tantalis".


#39    Proclus

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 02:21 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 04 January 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

The crux of the problem is the supposed Egyptian connection. The ancient Egyptians took a dim view of foreigners and the idea that they preserved a detailed tradition describing two remote civilizations - Atlantis and its rival Athens - is highly improbable. Even more far-fetched is the idea that the Egyptians, who took pride in being the 'oldest' civilization, could have recorded events which took place a thousand years before their own beginnings.

According to Herodotus the Egyptians did not consider themselves to be the oldest people. And maybe the events were not thousands of years ago, but less, and the later priests confused this? (Or Solon did confuse it?)

Anyway, I want to add in this thread on historical criticism another info from an other thread:

Studying the philosophy of science, such as reading Karl R. Popper, or minimalist works on biblical archaeology like "The Bible Unearthed"  http://en.wikipedia....Bible_Unearthed are very useful to understand how science works.
There's a very good youtube docu on "Bible Unearthed", see it here:
http://www.youtube.c...21B8E0D2D8EA963
I clearly recommend this to everybody who wants to foster his scientific understanding of history.

Edited by Proclus, 04 January 2013 - 02:22 PM.

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#40    Abramelin

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 08:56 PM

YOU study what I posted.

You wanted sources for Plato's tale? Well, read my post again.

I think it's one of the best explanations I have read concerning Plato's tale.


#41    Proclus

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:15 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 04 January 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

Alternatively, is it possible that Plato was right that Solon gathered the story on his travels, but mistaken in assuming that this was during his famous visit to Egypt?

It was to Anatolia that many other clues began to lead, beginning with Atlas, the famous Titan of Greek myth who was condemned to the edge of the world to support the skies when his race was defeated by Zeus and the Olympians. Atlas, Plato tells us, was the first king - and eponym - of Atlantis.

I find it difficult to believe that a Greek confused Egypt with some Anatolian state.

The king Atlas of Atlantis has nothing to do with titan Atlas of Greek mythology. These are two different characters. You will find this conviction in many scientific works on Plato's Atlantis, and I agree with this: Titan Atlas is not part of the story. But you are free to see it differently.

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#42    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:17 PM

View PostProclus, on 04 January 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

Philology brought to light that Plato not only knew the works of Herodotus (this is anyway clear) but also used them affirmingly in this case. Nobody of the Greeks questioned the dates given by Herodotus. To the contrary. Plato speaks in the Laws of 10000 years +X of age for Egypt. You can rely on this. It's "official" science, not my own idea.

Plato speaks in Laws about Egypt 10 000 old? Where?

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For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#43    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:31 PM

Abramelin

Tantalis is Lost Bronze age city in Turkey, probably near today Izmir. Historian Peter James was first as I remember that connected name Tantalis and Greek myths of titan Atlas.
Thanks to Homer Tantal is now known as mythical characther in Haddes who seek for fruit and water but cant get any. But other stories are similar to story of Atlas who carry weight and his city being destroyed in cataclysm.
But if Tantalis is Antlantis that mean that Plato was wrong about time and place. And fact that Tantalis wasnt island.
OP often said that time can be easily explained but what about pillars and island?


Edit: Okay, now I read your post and seen that you posted his link. Nevertheless my critic is valid.

Edited by the L, 04 January 2013 - 10:44 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#44    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:40 PM

View PostProclus, on 04 January 2013 - 02:21 PM, said:

According to Herodotus the Egyptians did not consider themselves to be the oldest people.

Who was older then they according to Egyprians and source please?

View PostProclus, on 04 January 2013 - 02:21 PM, said:

Studying the philosophy of science, such as reading Karl R. Popper,



Pianist and murderer of Fraud and Marx.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#45    Proclus

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:43 PM

View Postthe L, on 04 January 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

Plato speaks in Laws about Egypt 10 000 old? Where?

Plato The Laws Book II 656e.

"And you will find that their works of art are painted or moulded in the same forms which they had ten thousand years ago;-this is literally true and no exaggeration-their ancient paintings and sculptures are not a whit better or worse than the work of to-day, but are made with just the same skill."
http://classics.mit..../laws.2.ii.html

PS:
On the Egyptians granting the older age to the Phrygians:
http://www.public.ia.../herodotus.html

Edited by Proclus, 04 January 2013 - 10:46 PM.

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!




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