46 replies to this topic

[Edel]

Wow, just like in the movies!

[Mike 215]

This is nothing new. IN 1984 one of the space shuttles used radar to map the Sahara desert. The radar penetrated several feet in the gound and reveraled many ancient rivers and man made structures.
  So 27 years have passed since those radar pictures were made and what has happened? Practically nothing. Why? Very simple. The academic system (the same one that gives us Penn State and their perverts) did not want to do anything. They can blame the late leader of Libya, but that is an excuse.
  There is no doubt that if all these ruines were opened the history books will have to be rewritten and that is something the professors do not want to do.

[encouraged]

That will be interesting as we learn more and more about them and the roles they had in the rest of the world's trade, government, and technologies. Particularly interested in if they had ships and such. If so what kind? What kind of a religion, too.  All that will be a long time coming I bet.

It is amazing the new places that have opened up to the world for all of science to investigate. Mongolia, China, Turkey, Peruvian highlands, etc. I wish the drug growing fields and forests of Colombia were accessible so we can have more of the whole story of the cultures that flourished there.

[booNyzarC]

Mike 215, on 11 November 2011 - 10:48 PM, said:

This is nothing new. IN 1984 one of the space shuttles used radar to map the Sahara desert. The radar penetrated several feet in the gound and reveraled many ancient rivers and man made structures.
  So 27 years have passed since those radar pictures were made and what has happened? Practically nothing. Why? Very simple. The academic system (the same one that gives us Penn State and their perverts) did not want to do anything. They can blame the late leader of Libya, but that is an excuse.
  There is no doubt that if all these ruines were opened the history books will have to be rewritten and that is something the professors do not want to do.

*snip*

Edited by libstaK, 12 November 2011 - 11:16 AM.
personal attack

[crystal sage]

Could this be the site of the remains of what they thought was the 15000 year old civilization mentioned in 2003 ?
http://www.fromthest...s/page50_h.html



some photos.. of the Libya's south western desert... more than 100 fortified farms, villages with Castlelike structures...  at the moment they are saying it is from AD1-500... But

http://www.heritaged...ities-of-libya/

Edited by crystal sage, 12 November 2011 - 08:41 AM.

[crystal sage]

Interesting site here...

Quote

It is possible that only one percent of the wonders of Ancient Egypt have been discovered, but now, thanks to a pioneering approach to archaeology, that is about to change. Dr Sarah Parcak uses satellites to probe beneath the sands, where she has found cities, temples and pyramids. Now, with Dallas Campbell and Liz Bonnin, she heads to Egypt to discover if these magnificent buildings are really there. Seventeen lost pyramids are among the buildings identified in a new satellite survey of Egypt. More than 1,000 tombs and 3,000 ancient settlements were also revealed by looking at infra-red images which show up underground buildings. Initial excavations have already confirmed some of the findings, including two suspected pyramids.

http://www.downeu.ne...c3-mvgroup.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk...rammes/b011pwms




http://www.bbc.co.uk.../world-13522957

[Swamptick]

Very cool.

[libstaK]

Wow this is great - can't wait to hear more about what they find.  I'll be peeved if funding becomes an issue, too many people lack imagination these days IMO.

[crystal sage]

libstaK, on 12 November 2011 - 11:21 AM, said:

Wow this is great - can't wait to hear more about what they find.  I'll be peeved if funding becomes an issue, too many people lack imagination these days IMO.

  It appears that funding is the issue with most digs... especially now in Turkey  ... If digs aren't occupied for a certain length of time.. licences are said to be revoked ... Which is causing concerns around the Gobleki Tepe site...and other surrounding sites..


http://blog.biblepla...excavation.html

Quote

Although many of Turkey’s myriad archaeological sites – such as Ephesus, Antioch, Troy, Knidos, Alacahöyük and Hattuşa – were initially found and dug by foreign archaeologists, recent announcements from Turkey’s Culture and Tourism Ministry suggest this will soon change. The recent cancellation of several licenses for important digs that had been run by foreign scientists for decades, has precipitated a new debate on how to evaluate archaeological studies.

“Some of the foreign-run excavations are going well, but some groups only come here, work for 15 days and leave,” Culture and Tourism Minister Ertuğrul Günay said regarding the reason for the canceled licenses. “We are not going to allow that. If they don’t work on it, they should hand it over.”

Among this year’s canceled licenses are Xanthos, Letoon and Aizonai in the provinces of Antalya, Muğla and Kütahya, respectively. The excavations had been conducted by French and German teams for many decades.

http://politicalarch....wordpress.com/

Edited by crystal sage, 12 November 2011 - 09:51 PM.

[encouraged]

crystal sage, on 12 November 2011 - 09:49 PM, said:

It appears that funding is the issue with most digs... especially now in Turkey  ... If digs aren't occupied for a certain length of time.. licences are said to be revoked ... Which is causing concerns around the Gobleki Tepe site...and other surrounding sites..

Wow! Where was I when this became known? That is horrible.

None of us want to wait a lifetime for significant finds to be analyzed and published, like what happened due to the stubborn scholars of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Applying too much pressure, isn't the answer either. Too much of that can cause losses in important data. However, these may not even be factors in the government's policy making.

Just because the government has control of permits and access to sites, I doubt that they are going to overturn the lengthy established methods of the academics in this field of science, just to get the right to continue work in Turkey. Although the understanding of the site's place in history will be shared; the site, artifacts, and commercial value are Turkey's natural resource to regulate. That, however, doesn't mean they have the privilege to turn on its head, the manner of conducting this kind of science... You start a project, you get to complete it!

Sites in Turkey weren't of much interest because there were still so many sites to do in Iraq. But the war made that inaccessible, so Turkey became interesting. Perhaps they realize they won't be interesting after Iraq stabilizes--assuming it does.

If I were in need of finding a site typical to my field of study, I would not consider Turkey at all, because of such behavior. The intellectual property of data from the dig is your own. Your published findings of final determinations, your climb up the ladder of that field, and your career, are all difficult enough to accomplish without the government's help.

How could you roll the dice to pick a life long investigation where they might toss you out on your butt? How can you obtain funding for such work? Who would want to fund a site that may be taken over so a Turk can suddenly publish all the final finding and get the fame of it?

There has already been enough of that from the war in Iraq. Missionary and humanistic works and archaeology all had to be put on hold for the purpose of war.

I think the US government might should say to Turkey, "You know last year we helped you dudes out with this, that, and the other. We may not be able to sell you those F-18s you were interested in. Now what was this about our scholars not being able to complete the work you allowed them to begin? Actually the government needs to back some of these projects to stabilize their progress.

Or they could say, "It sure is difficult to fly to the heights of your ability when you have to fly with all these turkeys."

Humm, I wonder if the Windgate Foundation in Siloam Springs is interested in art recovery and the study of that media and techniques from archeology? They give about $US100 million in art grants each year. Let me know if their address is needed to research this.

[crystal sage]

http://dienekes.blog...al-site-of.html

Quote

But the game seems to be over: Culture Minister Ertugrul Gunay quashed hope of saving Allianoi last week when he dismissed the idea of questioning the local archaeological commission's decision in late August to bury the site for preservation

Pictures: Ancient Roman Spa City Reburied
http://news.national...key-pictures/  
Which is interestingly what the ancients did for Gobleki Tepi.. bury it for posterity !!!



I do think that a lot of the revoking of licencing is political... It wants it's treasure back...

http://www.hurriyetd...hinx-2011-02-27

Quote

Günay has also threatened several other German archaeological digs around the country, saying the permits could go to Turkish scientists.

Germany is also embroiled in a row with Egypt, which has demanded the return of the 3,400-year-old bust of fabled beauty Nefertiti, which currently has pride of place in the Neues Museum in Berlin.

but then again.. they seem to be very careless with what they do have... there is so much there that when my brother went to Turkey for a few weeks earlier this year he said that there were shards of pottery every where... even in the car parks!!...IIt was everwhere , used as gravel.. but they did have some security guards in the car parks  to make sure tourists didn't help themselves to the ancient gravel...  

Quote

Turkey wants its treasures back, and its assertive stick-and-carrot recovery program, which began to bear fruit last fall, is drawing attention from other Mediterranean nations alarmed at the loss of artifacts.

The undertaking is controversial. It is not calculated to comfort foreign collectors or museums. And it has become a national priority for Turkey.

Turkey is the principal source of classical artifacts that find their way to First World markets today, about $100 million to $200 million worth per year by official estimate. A crossroads nation spanning Europe and Asia, host to 36 civilizations across the centuries, Turkey claims more ancient Greek cities than Greece, more Roman cities than Italy.

http://articles.lati...ancient-wonders


http://www.hurriyetd...elay-2011-02-27

Edited by crystal sage, 13 November 2011 - 09:55 AM.

[encouraged]

crystal sage, on 13 November 2011 - 09:54 AM, said:

http://dienekes.blog...al-site-of.html
http://news.national...key-pictures/  
http://www.hurriyetd...hinx-2011-02-27
http://articles.lati...ancient-wonders
http://www.hurriyetd...elay-2011-02-27

The last sentence, in the last citing of your comment, sums it all up, in my opinion, “ 'It is impossible to understand how they were raised that they think they can be so provocative during these kinds of meetings,' Erdoğan said afterward." Only the sentence needs to be an expression of amazement of Turkey's PM's behavior on the World stage regarding artifacts, rather than two girls in the audience protesting.

I remember going to the Spiro Indian Mounds in Oklahoma, but near Fort Smith, Arkansas. The artifacts that were found there were not there to be seen. We had to later go to the Kindle Museum "in" Tulsa, Oklahoma to see them. That kinda bothered me.

Likewise, when I was at the Mexico Museum of Anthropology in Mexico City, The same was true of many artifacts there. The originals could be found in the Smithsonian in New York.

Not being able to see the artifacts in their original environments, or nearly so, made it impossible to study the significance of their placement.

I am a strong supporter of repatriation and a strong supporter of doing it correctly, as in a win-win-win decision. A win for both governments and a win for the future generations of the world. I actually cancelled my Smithsonian subscription because they were not doing enough toward repatriation of artifacts taken from sacred cites of indigenous people. Returning such to be handled traditionally is a responsible thing to do for all the parties involved.

Sometimes it takes a little creativity. Germany could demand a selling price, and contract that the money be paid into a trust. The trust being set up to build and manage a protective environment of the item in the artifact's home country. The payments being a "loan to own" kind of agreement. Turkey would pay installments that retain ownership to Germany until the artifact is totally paid off. Then Turkey gets the "title", the environment, and the artifact at a time when they have learned how to appreciate it, if they are not doing so already.

In that way Germany is fostering good relations, the artifact is returned, and protected for as long as Germany negotiates, and Germany is passing along ideas that can be used by Turkey should they desire to do so, and for that matter visa-verso.

The Neka Art Museum in Bali, Indonesia is a collection of European and local art that came about from a trust set up by a wealthy--German I think--artist. The European art is the work of ex-pats that relocated there for the beauty of ... whatever. The museum was set up similarly, and is doing real well in a society and government that may, or may not, appreciate it. After all the artist was also a pedophile who enjoyed many of the children in Bali, Indonesia, until finding the one he decided to marry.
View: Neka Art Museum, Ubud, Bali, Gianyar Island, Indonesia

But I don't see that happening if Turkey is handing out ultimatums. Nobody like ultimatums! I had a grandmother who would always put things into perspective by saying, "Now, children, play nicely!" (And "Well, I guess it is time to get the children off the streets." LOL!)

Edited by encouraged, 13 November 2011 - 10:21 PM.

[crystal sage]

]I can understand artifacts being taken to safer Countries that are not under the threat of War or uprisings.. where relgious mania will not destroy priceless artifacts... or are not able to keep them safely.. Where there is enough security to ensure there is no looting.. theft of artifacts or black market trading...

There are many laws that protect old buildings, sites and objects of cultural significance... so it constantly bothers me that greedy corporations  , businesses are happy to pay their way to actively destroy some amazing archaeological sites...

Really they need a  'Time Team' as a legal requirement before any construction or mining project is carried out...
And some sort of Archeological Marshalls supervising all these sites to ensure that there is no shifty dealings going on...

Governments should allocate a small percentage of funds.. or help subsidize fund raisers for preserving it's cultural heritage...  Or assist other countries that are having trouble funding or supervising these...

It is soul destroying seeing what is happening to the Middle East... the cradle of mankind.. think of all the missing links to our heritage it holds that  is being destroyed through these stupid wars... these power plays... greed... not just the hundreds of thousands of innocents... destroying the land for thousands of years with all the depleted uranium weaponry... ( probably their way to recycle nuclear wastes)  Why can't the World Play Nice... It is amazing how in some countries people are so intolerant..hate and kill each other . and yet in countries like Australia.. their relatives' children are playing together... best friends.. getting married... having kids.. people of all nations happily working and playing together.... Don't get it... unless it is politically inspired... manipulated for profit...

[Persia]

Mike 215, on 11 November 2011 - 10:48 PM, said:

This is nothing new. IN 1984 one of the space shuttles used radar to map the Sahara desert. The radar penetrated several feet in the gound and reveraled many ancient rivers and man made structures.
  So 27 years have passed since those radar pictures were made and what has happened? Practically nothing. Why? Very simple. The academic system (the same one that gives us Penn State and their perverts) did not want to do anything. They can blame the late leader of Libya, but that is an excuse.
  There is no doubt that if all these ruines were opened the history books will have to be rewritten and that is something the professors do not want to do.

Any link pls ?

[crystal sage]

Persia, on 17 November 2011 - 08:06 PM, said:

Any link pls ?

  

Maybe the ancient cities were destroyed by meteors?

http://earthobservat...ctive/page5.php

Quote

The middle image above—acquired from shuttle Endeavour in April 1994—shows the scars of an asteroid or comet impact in the midst of the Sahara Desert in northern Chad. The concentric rings of Aorounga impact crater, which spans about 17 kilometers (10.5 miles), were buried and filled over thousands to millions of years by sandy sediments. The Spaceborne Imaging Radar-C (SIR-C) and X-band Synthetic Aperture Radar (X-SAR) of Space Radar Laboratory 1 was able to see through the debris to the rocky formation below.

Maybe here > ?
Click on for a closer look at what is marked as..

Quote

This is an image of the Sahara Desert. It is the largest desert in the world and covers most of the northern third of Africa. (Courtesy of Aris Multimedia Entertainment, Inc. 1994)

( it is the one after the Hawaiian Islands

you can see the outlines of an ancient city...

http://www.windows2u...h/earth_il.html

Edited by crystal sage, 19 November 2011 - 09:47 AM.