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Great Pyramid not built by Khufu?


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#31    kmt_sesh

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 02:35 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 11 September 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:

Sesh the questions you put in the end of your post are only in context if you assume that the great pyramids(including the one you think built by Khafre) were built by khufu in 2500/2600 BC so if you wipe this assumption off the rest of your questions are already answered for.
And khufu using mortar to repair the exterior of the whole pyramid is not really an impossible act according to me.What objective proofs exist that it was only the muslim raiders who robbed or removed all the missing casing stones?Even if the pyramids are dated one year before the suspected reign period of Khufu it still could not have been built by him.
Other glaring inconsistencies in your suggested line of builders for the great pyramid is that why are there no ascending chambers passages etc in the so called Khafre pyramid?.Had the custom of building pyramid chambers changed so dramatically.Also why wouldn't khafre built his pyramid bigger then the one built by khufu since he had the advantage of being the second builder.How about radiocarbondating the second pyramid as well to give clues about the timeline of when it was built as this could solve a lot of mysteries surrounding who built/repaired/intruded them and at what time.

I recommend taking careful note of the document Swede linked to in Post 28. I should have posted this link myself, and I should have mentioned the wide-ranging nature of the carbon testing. Khufu's pyramid was only one of numerous Old Kingdom and Middle Kingdom monuments in the test. Errors of omission on my part. What's interesting is that across the board, the dating of these monuments based on their carbon samples reflects how accurate conventional relative dating has been all along.

The fact that Khufu's pyramid possesses an ascending passage is hardly a reason to suggest the pyramid wasn't built by Khufu. How familiar are you with the three pyramids built by Sneferu, prior to Khufu? I recommend spending some time researching them. They, too, possess unusual features, especially the Bent Pyramid. You will also find in the Red Pyramid numerous architectural features which Khufu would incorporate and expand on in the building of his own pyramid, including the corbeled vault. It's true that Khufu's pyramid possesses some unique features, but so do numerous other pyramids before and after his. Without a command in familiarity with all of these pyramids, you're trying to view the Great Pyramid as though it exists in an architectural and cultural vacuum. It certainly doesn't.

As for Khafre's pyramid, he didn't need to strive too hard to make it bigger than Khufu's monument. Khafre was savvy in selecting a spot in Giza that was already at higher elevation than the rest of the Plateau, so he allowed geography to do some of the work for him.

You should also delve into the workmen's graffiti inside the relieving chambers of the Great Pyramid. I am quite aware that oddballs like Zecharia Sitchin and Graham Hancock have tried to interpret this graffiti as a hoax, but their arguments in this direction are comically inept. There's a reason people don't take fringe authors seriously—and why in many book stores the books of fringe authors are located in some other section than the one for history (I've seen them located on the shelves in the New Age and occult sections, for example). The point is, anyone properly acquainted with the orthography and linguistic nature of this graffiti knows it to be unquestionably authentic. It could not have been a hoax. And the graffiti alone solidly ties the Great Pyramid to Khufu.

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#32    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 06:44 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 12 September 2012 - 02:35 AM, said:

I recommend taking careful note of the document Swede linked to in Post 28. I should have posted this link myself, and I should have mentioned the wide-ranging nature of the carbon testing. Khufu's pyramid was only one of numerous Old Kingdom and Middle Kingdom monuments in the test. Errors of omission on my part. What's interesting is that across the board, the dating of these monuments based on their carbon samples reflects how accurate conventional relative dating has been all along.

The fact that Khufu's pyramid possesses an ascending passage is hardly a reason to suggest the pyramid wasn't built by Khufu. How familiar are you with the three pyramids built by Sneferu, prior to Khufu? I recommend spending some time researching them. They, too, possess unusual features, especially the Bent Pyramid. You will also find in the Red Pyramid numerous architectural features which Khufu would incorporate and expand on in the building of his own pyramid, including the corbeled vault. It's true that Khufu's pyramid possesses some unique features, but so do numerous other pyramids before and after his. Without a command in familiarity with all of these pyramids, you're trying to view the Great Pyramid as though it exists in an architectural and cultural vacuum. It certainly doesn't.

As for Khafre's pyramid, he didn't need to strive too hard to make it bigger than Khufu's monument. Khafre was savvy in selecting a spot in Giza that was already at higher elevation than the rest of the Plateau, so he allowed geography to do some of the work for him.

You should also delve into the workmen's graffiti inside the relieving chambers of the Great Pyramid. I am quite aware that oddballs like Zecharia Sitchin and Graham Hancock have tried to interpret this graffiti as a hoax, but their arguments in this direction are comically inept. There's a reason people don't take fringe authors seriously—and why in many book stores the books of fringe authors are located in some other section than the one for history (I've seen them located on the shelves in the New Age and occult sections, for example). The point is, anyone properly acquainted with the orthography and linguistic nature of this graffiti knows it to be unquestionably authentic. It could not have been a hoax. And the graffiti alone solidly ties the Great Pyramid to Khufu.
I am aware of the bent pyramid and other half baked attempts of other egyptian pharoans at trying to replicate the great pyramids hence the doubt about khufu building the great pyramid gains more momentum in my mind.As you suggested yourself we cannot talk about the great pyramids in isolation,this is the premise on which my argument is based.Why isn't there any other pyramid which replicates the beauty and accuracy of the great pyramid,why aren't there heiroglyphics in the great pyramids as compared to these other pyramids including sneferu's pyramids which you state were made before the great pyramids?The ascending passage was blocked since the relatively modern explorations broke around it,can this be the reason the other pharoans never had ascending passages in their pyramids probably since they didn't know one existed?what does the present dillapitated conditions of the other pyramids when compared to the great pyramid tell you?If i write my name on one of the walls of the white house does it mean i built it?Did the art of pyramid building reach it's zenith during Khufu's time and was forgotten after two generations (which is highly unlikely)?Hence i agree with you when you say that the great pyramids cannot be studied in a cultural vaccum or in isolation.


Regarding carbon dating of the mortar i have already suggested that khufu could have carried out repairing work on the pyramid and the 'inventory stele' """can"""" be a documented proof for it.

Would you deny and explain away gravity if it's existence was stated by Sitchin and Hancock? When it comes to Sitchin a lot of his work and hypothesis is based on choosing between mainstream translations of sumerian tablets which according to me is not a very bad method.Also you might dislike their hypothesis as they are new and opposed to accepted knowledge and don't always have objective proof but so many things accepted by mainstream is not based on objective proof.This is evident as so many long standing notions held by the mainstream are revised from time to time
(but not without a lot of resistance and embarassment).Blanketing everything a person is saying because of your personal beliefs is not an objective technique according to me.

Michael Cremo gives an excellent example of this truth filteration that happens due to our existing Mainstream procedures in his book 'forbidden archeology'.Also if you consider human psychology you know that the 'power of suggestion' (often and forcibly invoked by mainstreamn academia through peer review)is almost hypnotic and also would impact mainstream archeologists and historians.Any institution of knowledge should indulge in giving credence to dissent to any generally accepted norm inorder to really strengthen it's credibility instead of crucifying the nay sayers.

Like i stated all new hypothesis or theory or facts are fringe when they are born(since they are not yet accepted by mainstream)so why not encourage fringe or how would you encourage new discoveries in any field?

PS- debating with you has always been a pleasure Sesh.


#33    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 07:55 AM

View PostHarte, on 11 September 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

You ignore the very real fact that there is a kink in the "air passage" that would prevent such a ridiculous thing from even being possible.

Are you aware of anything about the GP?  If so, than tell me, how did Khufu even discover these passages?  The "air shafts" were covered over and the relieving chambers were sealed off by solid rock - not as a door, but completely sealed off due to the construction technique itself.

We got in using black powder.  How did Khufu blow these chambers open and then how did he repair them to a state undetectable from pristine?

Claiming Khufu could do such a thing is no different that claiming Khufu had the thing built in the first place.

You do know, don't you, that the writings in the relieving chambers list some of the names of the work gangs that built the thing, right?  Are you aware that some of these same work gang names have been found in other records?  Are you saying Khufu put those there too?  How would he know to do that?  Just so you could be right 4500 years later?

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So probably Vyse did actually do the forgery.Thanks for your reasoning i have narrowed down on this fact atleast.Also are those glyphs egyptian heiroglyphs as we know them? And by worker gangs do you mean guilds which probably could exist for long periods of time (1000's of year) before and after they were mentioned in the egyptian heiroglyphs?
And according to the facts you reveal about the glyphs all over the pyramid though i am still not clear wether the photo you posted was of glyph inside the air chamber you were talking about but neverthless probably it is these glyphs that hold the key to the original pyramid builders and a study of them in more depth could be very fruitful.

Also you took me literally when i was just suggesting an example.I would be thankfull if you can give me more details about the granite slab blocking the ascending passage.Is there no chance that it could have once been a collapsable door which was sealed later?

At present the mainstream argument about khufu building the great pyramid sounds very fragile and based only on one cartouche that most probably is a forgery and no other objective evidence.It sounds more like "Do you believe in God? if your answer is no then who wrote the bible?".


P.S.--The tone of your argument that Khufu could not have blasted open the ascending passage way and restored it back without leaving any trace is highlighting the same astonishment that people have in believing that a an old people without the aid of modern tools could build the epic structure to such a pristine extent.If you beleive Khufu could pull of the great pyramid then probably he was capable of such things and much more.

Edited by Harsh86_Patel, 12 September 2012 - 08:09 AM.


#34    Harte

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 05:37 PM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 12 September 2012 - 07:55 AM, said:

So probably Vyse did actually do the forgery.Thanks for your reasoning i have narrowed down on this fact atleast.Also are those glyphs egyptian heiroglyphs as we know them?
It is quite impossible that Vyse forged anything, for two reasons.  First, the version of Khufu's name he found in a relieving chamber was unknown at the time (which led to the original questioning of his find - which Sitchin picked up and ran with over a hundred years later.)  Second, the glyphs, clearly Egyptian, can be seen extending into cracks between blocks - on the actual surfaces of the stones, a foot or more deep into cracks no wider that a couple of inches at most.  Vyse could not have painted these Egyptian characters between the stones. These cannot be seen without a good flashlight to shine into these cracks and thus no pictures of them exist.  However, no less than fringe proponents Graham Hancock and John Anthony West have testified to seeing these glyphs in the cracks with their own eyes.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 12 September 2012 - 07:55 AM, said:

And by worker gangs do you mean guilds which probably could exist for long periods of time (1000's of year) before and after they were mentioned in the egyptian heiroglyphs?
No, individual work gangs that participated in the construction of the Great Pyramid and actually lived in the worker's village that has been (partially) unearthed right next to the pyramid complex.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 12 September 2012 - 07:55 AM, said:

And according to the facts you reveal about the glyphs all over the pyramid though i am still not clear wether the photo you posted was of glyph inside the air chamber you were talking about
Then you didn't read the quote, where you are told that the ochre painted glyph is associated with a different pyramid, hence my mention that you are correct that such marks would be found in every pyramid.  They have been found in or around every pyramid where anyone has looked for them.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 12 September 2012 - 07:55 AM, said:

Also you took me literally when i was just suggesting an example.I would be thankfull if you can give me more details about the granite slab blocking the ascending passage.Is there no chance that it could have once been a collapsable door which was sealed later?
The ceiling of the King's Chamber is where all those humongous granite slabs that the fringe is so fond of claiming "couldn't have been placed by the Egyptians."  How are you going to use an 80 ton slab in the ceiling as a door? And why would you even want a door into a "chamber" that is nothing more than a void that resulted from the weight distribution design employed above the King's Chamber?  You can't even stand up in these so-called "chambers."

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 12 September 2012 - 07:55 AM, said:

At present the mainstream argument about khufu building the great pyramid sounds very fragile and based only on one cartouche that most probably is a forgery and no other objective evidence.It sounds more like "Do you believe in God? if your answer is no then who wrote the bible?".
What is very fragile is the idea that the GP is attributed to Khufu by only some graffiti found in a sealed chamber.

Please look up the translation for the Ancient Egyptian name for the Great Pyramid.

What I'm trying to say here is that the Ancient Egyptians themselves claimed it.  Do you think you know better than they do?

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 12 September 2012 - 07:55 AM, said:

P.S.--The tone of your argument that Khufu could not have blasted open the ascending passage way and restored it back without leaving any trace is highlighting the same astonishment that people have in believing that a an old people without the aid of modern tools could build the epic structure to such a pristine extent.If you beleive Khufu could pull of the great pyramid then probably he was capable of such things and much more.
Because that is the only way Khufu could have gotten in, and then he would have had to repair it to, again, pristine condition, I was merely pointing out that such a thing is even harder to believe than the fact that Khufu had the thing built in the first place.

If you for some reason believe that the Great Pyramid is built to anything like today's architectural standards, then you either know very little about the Great Pyramid, or you know very little about architectural standards, or both.

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#35    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 06:13 PM

View PostHarte, on 12 September 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

It is quite impossible that Vyse forged anything, for two reasons.  First, the version of Khufu's name he found in a relieving chamber was unknown at the time (which led to the original questioning of his find - which Sitchin picked up and ran with over a hundred years later.)  Second, the glyphs, clearly Egyptian, can be seen extending into cracks between blocks - on the actual surfaces of the stones, a foot or more deep into cracks no wider that a couple of inches at most.  Vyse could not have painted these Egyptian characters between the stones. These cannot be seen without a good flashlight to shine into these cracks and thus no pictures of them exist.  However, no less than fringe proponents Graham Hancock and John Anthony West have testified to seeing these glyphs in the cracks with their own eyes.


No, individual work gangs that participated in the construction of the Great Pyramid and actually lived in the worker's village that has been (partially) unearthed right next to the pyramid complex.


Then you didn't read the quote, where you are told that the ochre painted glyph is associated with a different pyramid, hence my mention that you are correct that such marks would be found in every pyramid.  They have been found in or around every pyramid where anyone has looked for them.


The ceiling of the King's Chamber is where all those humongous granite slabs that the fringe is so fond of claiming "couldn't have been placed by the Egyptians."  How are you going to use an 80 ton slab in the ceiling as a door? And why would you even want a door into a "chamber" that is nothing more than a void that resulted from the weight distribution design employed above the King's Chamber?  You can't even stand up in these so-called "chambers."


What is very fragile is the idea that the GP is attributed to Khufu by only some graffiti found in a sealed chamber.

Please look up the translation for the Ancient Egyptian name for the Great Pyramid.

What I'm trying to say here is that the Ancient Egyptians themselves claimed it.  Do you think you know better than they do?


Because that is the only way Khufu could have gotten in, and then he would have had to repair it to, again, pristine condition, I was merely pointing out that such a thing is even harder to believe than the fact that Khufu had the thing built in the first place.

If you for some reason believe that the Great Pyramid is built to anything like today's architectural standards, then you either know very little about the Great Pyramid, or you know very little about architectural standards, or both.

Harte
I suggested that Vyse only painted the cartouche  and not the glyphs.Also by names of worker gangs do you mean the names of individual workers or a single name representing the whole gang/guild?


#36    cladking

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 06:59 PM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 12 September 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

Hence i agree with you when you say that the great pyramids cannot be studied in a cultural vaccum or in isolation.

This is a concept that orthodoxy can not understand.

They've filled a vacuum of evidence with a culture from later times and then
flavored it with the sampling error of only things found in tombs.  To orthodoxy
this looks like plenty of evidence to use as a weapon against anyone who would
dare to organize the meagher evidence in some other fashion.

There is no "cultural evidence" as defined by orthodoxy.  There is only an appear-
ance that the people never changed because the Pyramid Texts has been inter-
preted and translated in terms of later works and the fact that the PT post-dates
the Great Pyramid and includes concepts not known before are ignored except when
it's convenient.

Very little is really excluded by "cultural evidence".

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 12 September 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

Hence i agree with you when you say that the great pyramids cannot be studied in a cultural vaccum or in isolation.

This is a concept that orthodoxy can not understand.

They've filled a vacuum of evidence with a culture from later times and then
flavored it with the sampling error of only things found in tombs.  To orthodoxy
this looks like plenty of evidence to use as a weapon against anyone who would
dare to organize the meagher evidence in some other fashion.

There is no "cultural evidence" as defined by orthodoxy.  There is only an appear-
ance that the people never changed because the Pyramid Texts has been inter-
preted and translated in terms of later works and the fact that the PT post-dates
the Great Pyramid and includes concepts not known before are ignored except when
it's convenient.

Very little is really excluded by "cultural evidence".

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#37    Abramelin

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 06:59 PM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 12 September 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

I suggested that Vyse only painted the cartouche  and not the glyphs.Also by names of worker gangs do you mean the names of individual workers or a single name representing the whole gang/guild?

Why are you so convinced Vyse fabricated evidence?

Because it suits your fantasy about the GP being 10,000+ years old?

And what do you have to back that up? Schoch?


#38    zoser

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 07:39 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 12 September 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

Why are you so convinced Vyse fabricated evidence?

Because it suits your fantasy about the GP being 10,000+ years old?

And what do you have to back that up? Schoch?

Schoch's the man when it comes to geology.  He's totally convinced that it's much older.  Who are we to argue and what better evidence is there?

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#39    Abramelin

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 07:46 PM

View Postzoser, on 12 September 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

Schoch's the man when it comes to geology.  He's totally convinced that it's much older.  Who are we to argue and what better evidence is there?

Other geologists said he was wrong.

I am not a geologist, but when many of that tribe tell me he was wrong, I tend to believe them.

He is as human as we all are: despite his training, he COULD be wrong, right?


#40    zoser

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 07:46 PM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 12 September 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

I suggested that Vyse only painted the cartouche  and not the glyphs.Also by names of worker gangs do you mean the names of individual workers or a single name representing the whole gang/guild?


That cartouche is as fake as a 40 dollar bill and everyone knows it.  Why isn't the pyramid adorned with more of Khufu's symbolism?  Why only that example in only that place?  

I'll tell you why; they pyramid belonged to a much earlier time before the well known examples of Egyptian art existed.  Furthermore  there is no need whatsoever to place inscriptions inside a machine where no man was ever intended to set foot.

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#41    zoser

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 07:48 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 12 September 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

Other geologists said he was wrong.

I am not a geologist, but when many of that tribe tell me he was wrong, I tend to believe them.

He is as human as we all are: despite his training, he COULD be wrong, right?

I've never come across a geological refutation of Schoch.  Now you mention it I will look into it though.  BRB

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#42    Abramelin

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 07:49 PM

View Postzoser, on 12 September 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

That cartouche is as fake as a 40 dollar bill and everyone knows it.  Why isn't the pyramid adorned with more of Khufu's symbolism?  Why only that example in only that place?  

I'll tell you why; they pyramid belonged to a much earlier time before the well known examples of Egyptian art existed.  Furthermore  there is no need whatsoever to place inscriptions inside a machine where no man was ever intended to set foot.

Show proof.

"Why only that example in only that place?"

You believe in the Bagdad battery, right? Only one example?

.

Edited by Abramelin, 12 September 2012 - 07:58 PM.


#43    zoser

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 08:00 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 12 September 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

Show proof.

Show proof that it's real.  The amateurish look of the writing inconsistent with the remainder of such a precise piece of work, written in a not obvious location found by an unscrupulous man, when nothing like it exists in any other pyramid must make the whole thing very moot.

In any case, I'm happy to admit that the pyramid was repaired in Khufu's time; something I have always believed.  Maybe if it is real, that is what it alludes to.  Has anyone considered that?

Just one more thought?  Wouldn't we expect to see inscriptions inside the King's Chamber being the final resting place of a great king?  Why does nobody question this?

Edited by zoser, 12 September 2012 - 08:06 PM.

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#44    zoser

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 08:10 PM

It doesn't make sense Abe that the pyramid is devoid of art.  The Egyptians were always known to be highly demonstrative in matters of burial of important people, yet we see nothing of the sort.  Why does this not raise alarm bells?  What could be at play?  The answer is that it wasn't built by the Egyptians that you or I know about.  It belonged to their ancestors of a much earlier time.

Edited by zoser, 12 September 2012 - 08:10 PM.

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#45    kmt_sesh

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 08:10 PM

View PostHarte, on 12 September 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

It is quite impossible that Vyse forged anything, for two reasons.  First, the version of Khufu's name he found in a relieving chamber was unknown at the time (which led to the original questioning of his find - which Sitchin picked up and ran with over a hundred years later.)  Second, the glyphs, clearly Egyptian, can be seen extending into cracks between blocks - on the actual surfaces of the stones, a foot or more deep into cracks no wider that a couple of inches at most.  Vyse could not have painted these Egyptian characters between the stones. These cannot be seen without a good flashlight to shine into these cracks and thus no pictures of them exist.  However, no less than fringe proponents Graham Hancock and John Anthony West have testified to seeing these glyphs in the cracks with their own eyes.

...

I think it was you, Harte, who first showed me Hancock's public retraction about the graffiti. I actually respected the man for admitting this point.

We should've known better, however. In some recent thread of Scott Creighton's, he posted a link where Hancock had decided to retract his retraction. Hancock determined that because we can't see all of the graffiti in the joins between the blocks and can't determine if Khufu's cartouche is back in there, too, we should therefore be skeptical of those areas of the blocks completely open to viewing. In other words, while the graffiti between the blocks must be authentic, there's nothing to "prove" Khufu's workmen did the graffiti with the cartouches on the unobstructed blocks.

As I would sum it up: once an idiot, always an idiot. It's a chronic condition.

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