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Would America have won its independence if?


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#1    Ever Learning

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:57 PM

I'm not hating on america but some one tried to insult my English heritage, do you think america would of won their independence with out the french?
im only 23 years old and dont really care if my country lost a war 219 years ago, i dont understand why others do enough to be insulting about it. (as if they themselves had thought my 219 year old relatives)
If i had been around back then i would of probably went to america as well.
so summarizing.......1. Would america have one the war with out France?
   2. What wars has america fought by them selves?
   3. Should i feel any shame because i was born into a country without my choice?

http://www.thisnatio...ution-time.html
As this may be a heated topic, i ask people to use facts and refrain from insulting each other.

Edited by Armchair Educated, 27 November 2012 - 03:37 PM.

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#2    Ever Learning

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:01 PM

Apologies as i have only started reading up on this 5 mins before my post, if i seem ignorant its because i am lol

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#3    Child of Bast

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:45 PM

People get all wound up by the silliest things, AE. ;) Would we have gained our independence without the aid of the French? Maybe yes, maybe no. It's hard to know, really. I mean 219 years later, we have a clear over-view of the entire issue of independence and can maybe take a guess at it. As they say, hindsight is 20/20. :) I'll be interested to know what others think since I took a rather middle-of-the-road stance in my answer. :P

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#4    Taun

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:50 PM

My personal opinion of your questions - for what my opinion is worth...

1. Yes - eventually... basically the French put pressure on the English in other theaters of operations which drained English resources and troops.. the main direct assistance given was the French Fleet at Yorktown sealing up Cornwallis... But England was getting war weary and (IMO) even without the French eventually the English would have said "To heck with it" and negotiated a peace...

2. The War of 1812 (vs England again), The Mexican War of the 1840's, The Civil War (of course), The Indian Wars of the late 1800's, The Spanish-American War (1890's?).... all come to mind...  Most of our major wars - we were allied (mostly with England)...

3. You should feel no shame at being a citizen of whatever country you live in or were born in...  The bad things in the past (every country has bad things in its past) were not your fault... Anyone who tells you that you should be ashamed of your country - should be ashamed of themself...

Edit to add
A person should only be ashamed of the things THEY participated in during their time in a country, or if they did nothing to make their country a better place - even if just a little bit...

Edited by Taun, 27 November 2012 - 03:53 PM.


#5    Yes_Man

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:05 PM

You forgot the spanish of the Amrerican side, and the Germans on the Britsh side Armchair


#6    Ever Learning

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:06 PM

View PostTaun, on 27 November 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

2. The War of 1812 (vs England again), The Mexican War of the 1840's, The Civil War (of course), The Indian Wars of the late 1800's, The Spanish-American War (1890's?).... all come to mind...  Most of our major wars - we were allied (mostly with England)...
In the war of 1812 Britian was already fighting the french. The United States declared war in 1812 for several reasons, including trade restrictions brought about by Britain's ongoing war with France, the impressment of American merchant sailors into the Royal Navy, British support of American Indian tribes against American expansion, outrage over insults to national honor after humiliations on the high seas, and possible American desire to annex Canada.
Ive never heard of the Mexican wars, it will give me something to read up on.

Edited by Armchair Educated, 27 November 2012 - 04:11 PM.

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#7    Corp

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:51 PM

One of those hard to call issues. On the one hand the French were a huge help to the Americans, not only directly but also through training and supplies. The colonialists would have been in real trouble without that support. On the other hand the British didn't really put in their full power to fighting the Revolution. Many supported the American's position and by and large the British public just didn't really care.

So I'd say the Americans still would have won but perhaps not all the colonies would have agreed to break off and the peace treaty would have been very different.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse...A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

#8    ealdwita

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:14 PM

Ask that moron Mel Gibson - he seemed to have it all worked out!

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#9    Grey14

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:28 PM

View PostArmchair Educated, on 27 November 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

I'm not hating on america but some one tried to insult my English heritage, do you think america would of won their independence with out the french?
im only 23 years old and dont really care if my country lost a war 219 years ago, i dont understand why others do enough to be insulting about it. (as if they themselves had thought my 219 year old relatives)
If i had been around back then i would of probably went to america as well.
so summarizing.......1. Would america have one the war with out France?
   2. What wars has america fought by them selves?
   3. Should i feel any shame because i was born into a country without my choice?

http://www.thisnatio...ution-time.html
As this may be a heated topic, i ask people to use facts and refrain from insulting each other.

Does it really matter?

That is like asking would England have survived the German onslought of WW2 without America joining the war?

The way I see things is that the US and England may have not seen eye to eye at times in the past but when the chips have been down we have always stood together, those are the times you see who your real friends are. I will never forget on the darkest day in our modern history as a country, 9/11, England was the first one to stand with us. Hell you even played our anthem at the changing of the gaurds and that had never happened before. For that alone you earned my respect. As far as I'm concerned even though we are 2 different countries we are still family.



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#10    Myles

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 08:59 PM

I think the colonies would have won with or without the French.   It would have taken longer, but England could not keep the long distance war going for long.


#11    TheLastLazyGun

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 02:51 PM

Quote

I'm not hating on america but some one tried to insult my English heritage, do you think america would of won their independence with out the french?

America wouldn't have won its independence had the British actually been bothered about hanging on to America.

The British actually had more important things on their mind at the time than holding onto a relatively minor colony.

It's for that reason that the British deliberately allowed the Yanks to have their independence so we can concentrate on the more pressing matters.

Remember, the British won most of the battles in the War of Independence and we would have easily won it, even with France helping out the Yanks, had we actually desperately wanted to hang on to America.

Edited by TheLastLazyGun, 06 December 2012 - 02:56 PM.


#12    TheLastLazyGun

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 02:58 PM

View PostArmchair Educated, on 27 November 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

In the war of 1812 Britian was already fighting the french. The United States declared war in 1812 for several reasons, including trade restrictions brought about by Britain's ongoing war with France, the impressment of American merchant sailors into the Royal Navy, British support of American Indian tribes against American expansion, outrage over insults to national honor after humiliations on the high seas, and possible American desire to annex Canada.
Ive never heard of the Mexican wars, it will give me something to read up on.

It's an American myth that the British impressed Americans into the Royal Navy.

The British claimed at the time, quite rightly, that most of the "Americans" they impressed into the Royal Navy were actually British citizens who were living in America on false American visas.

Stop believing all that American propaganda.


#13    ealdwita

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:53 PM

In 1757, a huge impressment was set up in New York with solders and marines encircling the city to protect the press gangs as they went about their business. But New York was still  a British colony at that time!

Pressing Americans into the Royal Navy was forbidden, but Britain didn't recognise 'naturalised'  Americans - (anybody born British was still British as far as they were concerned!)

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#14    Bonecrusher

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 06:20 PM

View PostArmchair Educated, on 27 November 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

...1. Would america have one the war with out France?

You don't need the history books to know that America would have prevailed.
Though you have to remember that the French were colonising Quebec at the same time.
So that is two countries histories that would have been re-written.
The only French you would have seen with a substantial population would be Louisiana.
And that's before all the social and political changes. It would be mayhem.
The Wild West wouldn't even have been won for the sake of a few years more warfare.
Tbh I'm quite content with the status quo as it stands despite us Limey sods getting booted out of the States.



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#15    ealdwita

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 01:26 PM

Q. What's the difference between the French and toast?
A. You can make soldiers out of toast.

"Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel, ac gecnáwan þín gefá!": "Fate goes ever as she shall, but know thine enemy!".
I can teach you with a quip, if I've a mind; I can trick you into learning with a laugh; Oh, winnow all my folly and you'll find, A grain or two of truth among the chaff!
(The Yeoman of the Guard ~ Gilbert and Sullivan)




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