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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


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#4531    The Puzzler

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 04:49 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 30 April 2011 - 03:21 PM, said:

Just following leads, "Puzz" style (no offense Puzz, but sometimes it appears to me you shoot with hail, LOL!! But I like it, despite my criticism/ and wine helps a lot):


The Yaz Civilization was related to the "Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex" (BAMAC/ 2200–1700 BC), according to the wiki page about the Yaz culture: http://en.wikipedia....iki/Yaz_culture

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMAC

The "Anau tablet" :
Posted Image

http://www.flavinsco...com/8-10-01.htm

Now aint that great, eh? That Berber "Freemen"/Yazh symbol is of really ancient heritage, and is related to something with "God" or Papa, lol.


The Berber symbol:
Posted Image

The idea is of course, that this abstract symbol of a male human (a god, a 'Papa' = father-god?) developed into a six-spoked wheel, as used by the Fryan people (the Yule wheel of the Oera Linda Book), and after the Alans (who also venerated/carried a 6-spoked wheel symbol).

Posted Image

Another crazy idea: were these Yazh guys, the Alans, here in western Europe millennia before the accepted date of the first centuries AD??

If that is true, you might have some kind of proof of the OLB.



.
Interesting. Back tomorrow for this one. Just quickly though...

Probably Yaz is still az - aza-asa-azi - Fire

The fire wheel, burning the wheel. The sun's journey through the sky.

Everyone didn't realise when they stole the writing it had to written round like the Sun - that's why the writing is round. The circle is the round sun the letter shape follows.

When the Sun did one circuit it completed a Juul. Wralda is just one part of the bigger picture of this cycle.

The Berber symbol is imo Life Force - the fire - aza

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#4532    The Puzzler

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 04:54 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 30 April 2011 - 04:41 PM, said:

No, I didnt miss it, but you missed about everything I posted.

**** happens, people's attention tends to wander off, people are getting tired of wading through huge posts, people will quit as soon as they have to read too much.

And that is why this thread has grown to more than a 300 pages.
I didn't miss it but it's just not stuff I know much about yet so have to spend ages reading up things you mention to then understand your point, which I never seem to get...

Yeah, never mind, but I will read your posts again properly first thing tomorrow because they do look interesting and I want to comment. I'll try and stay on track with what you have written.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#4533    SlimJim22

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 05:10 PM

I'm lovin' this new direction or should I say direction but they are linked at some level anyway. So, the Yaz interesting as the peacock is a recurring symbol in esoteric texts. It does seem to trace back to some stone age tribe in the Middle East or North Africa and Anatolia imo and blue eyes and red hair do seem likely. In latter ages I suspect they inhabited large swathes of land and were an ideal vehicle for ancient wisdom because they were adaptable and could assimilate ith other cultures but retain a secret identity. Could this be why the Ottomans and Nazis were allied, they saw themselves as both being Farsi or Yezidi to some degree. Both Aryans but not necessarily with the white skin and blonde hair but still descending from some ancient tribe and culture that secretly presevred knowledge through numeorus channels. It does put a new complexion on myths and the development of culture but it needn't be black and white because for some reason redness and also the symbols of fire and illumination seem to take precedence.

It may be that authors of myth have always drawn upon a tradition not in the public domain that describe an ancient red haired race of humanity that played some role in their culture. These myths appear to stretch as far as the Pacific Islands and maybe even Korea and Japan. Could they be linked to Frisians from some distant time? They could if you break things down to the lowest denominators like practices such as ship building, holistic living and mythology but it is rarely useful to do so. Any sort of proof needs to be specific and fortunately the Scythians do seem to support a far reaching influence that found it's way into myth and pseudo-history. In some ways that is as powerful as proof.

The infamous Nic DeVere is the main proponent of this theory of a culture of Scythian lords and ladys who ruled ancient history through nobility and he maintains they are the faery race. This is akin to Pharoah, Phoenix, Farsi, Freya, etc. and all have some correspondence with Scythians too. Don't forget good ol' Phineas Farsi. Oh yeah... Grimm brothers and writers from that region of the river (Puzz?) on the amber trade being the writers of fairy tails, which in themselves are full of esoteric symbolism. Mayhap Halbertsama and other writers were drawing on common sources but in an original way so as to prevent the true sources. It would be historical fiction but needed to be presented that way to ensure it was not destroyed by anyone wishing the truth to be kept secret or even destroyed.

"I belive no thing, I follow the Law of One. I am a Man-O'-Sion under construction."

#4534    The Puzzler

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 01:25 AM

The Faery people hey?

I've been thinking of fairy tales lately and think they hold many old clues to the lifestyles of these people. Hansel and Gretal has the old witch eating children too. They are all Germanic many of them.

Phineas Farsi caught my eye before - and his alphabets. He could even be Cadmus for all we know.

The Peacock - Hera's Bird, not found in the Med. though - always a Persian bird - Hera more than likely is a Persian character.

She probably came from this Yaz culture area. Hera came in with the Hearth - the fire. The az.

Prometheus gets chained to the Caucasus for giving fire back to humans. I gather because the Caucasus was where the hub of the Fire people were - he was probably from there himself - because an EAGLE picks his liver out. That sounds Zoroastrian.



Demeter, Hera and Hestia are the 3 Olympian women.

Hestia may be Vesta who may be in the OLB writing with her style at the lamp. The lighting of the lamp and the giving of laws was instituting the Fryan way.

The similarity of names between Hestia and Vesta, is misleading: "The relationship hestia-histie-Vesta cannot be explained in terms of Indo-European linguistics; borrowings from a third language must also be involved," scholar Walter Burkert has written.[2] At some primitive level her name means "home and hearth",


These 3 may have entered Greece from the area of the Yaz.

This may be a long shot but the colours shown on the peacock are the colours found in fire when metal is burned in it - throw copper wire in a fire, what happens, the flame goes blue and green as well as red/orange - it could look very magical.

The peacock also has Eyes to watch.

The power of these people imo is reinforced in the story of Apollo going to be more powerful than his father, Zeus, says Hera.

Apollo is also the fire, Artemis is too - the life force through death. Hera is given a Golden Apple tree to care for on her marriage to Zeus.

This appears to be an intrusion by these Yaz people into Greece.

Zoroastran practise of exposure. Priam exposed Paris as a baby. They seem, then, to be some sort of Zoroastrians too - they did have Apollo. Apollo built the walls of Troy with Poseidon. It could mean these people were capable of the building of giant rock cities.

An interesting this is this, the Yaz practiced sky burial as I just said about Paris too - sky burial is very ancient and connected to Gobekli Tepe and Stonehenge even.

The Tibetan sky-burial practices appear to have evolved out of practical considerations[1][2][3] but can also be related to ancient places of sky burial such as Göbekli Tepe (11,500 years bp) and Stonehenge (4,500 years bp).[citation needed] Most of Tibet is above the tree line, and the scarcity of timber makes cremation economically unfeasible. Additionally, subsurface interment is difficult since the active layer is not more than a few centimeters deep, with solid rock or permafrost beneath them.

The customs are first recorded in an indigenous 12th century Buddhist treatise known colloquially as the Book of the Dead (Bardo Thodol).[4] Tibetan tantricism appears to have influenced the procedure.[5] Dissection occurs according to instructions given by a lama or tantric adept.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Sky_burial


The Vulture is at Gobekli Tepe, it is what generally eats your remains or the dogs. The Vulture is a symbol used throughout Egypt, it is probably a significent connection to the ancient practise of sky burial or exposure.

It might even connect Zoroastrianism to that age of Gobekli Tepe and the Magi do possess this ages old knowledge they say.

Maybe even the Anu of Sumeria and the Indus Valley people. Why not? Sounds good to me.

The tutu could be comparable to the azza maybe...

Tutu: abundant virtue; abundant purity; purity and immaculateness

The life force of the fire. Melting metals also gets them to their pure state - then alchemy and all that stems from those things. Fire creates purity. Fire purifies you etc.

It all goes back to the idea before of being liberated (purified) by the fire and possibly made eternal (by passing through it) - hence Demeter and Thetis practise of this ancient rite. Immortality was gained by 'passing through the fire' - that would be purity.

Mention has been made on the web about Zarathusta being Jesus. It's weird then, that he was said to be born in Kashmir, near Bactria and also Nepal is the core of the ancient sky burial people. Could Jesus have been born when the OLB said - when the sinking of Atland occurred and his teaching was actually that of Zarathusta - he purified US by his death - he died for our sins - the death releases you from sin, which in many peoples eyes, is a good thing, especially if you think you are going on a continuing journey of your life, there's nothing to lose when you die.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#4535    Otharus

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 02:36 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 29 April 2011 - 08:23 PM, said:

Bezum, Otharus, McKay, and Alewyn, and all those other people who are able to read Dutch, or are Dutch, please tell me: what is your impression of this guy Halbertsma?

I could also show you his letters to Grimm so you would understand how fanatic this guy was about anything Frisian (language, history, legends, and so on).

Just consider this: he was called "Mister Fryslan".

He went to very great lenghts to put Friesland and Frisian heritage on the world map. He was in contact with German, Danish, and English and other linguists and historians, and did his utter best to promote Friesland.
...
If there was anyone motivated to create a manuscript like the OLB, or be the inspirator of it, then it was Halbertsma.

It is because Halbertsma was a part of the Frisian Elite, and because he knew pretty much everything there was to know at that time about Frisian language and history, that he could have created something that the Frisian elite would have loved.

But the OLB had the opposite effect on them.

It terrified and insulted them.

They hated it.

This is one of the reasons why someone with his skills and motives could not have done it, for he would have done a much better job pleasing the crowds.

The idea that it was an exercise by his hand that someone stole, or that someone finished what he started...

I won't waste many words on that.

To use your vocabulary: desperate crap.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

The OLB contains elements that even someone like Eelco Verwijs felt embarrassed about, and he can be considered as one of the most open-minded, provocative, hedonistic bohemians of his time. Jensma describes him as completely unethical (I think we would love this guy).

Example: the fragment with the foul Fin "nilst min kul navt sâ skilst min swêrd ha".
(Ref.: letter Verwijs to Over de Linden)

Edited by Otharus, 01 May 2011 - 02:42 AM.


#4536    The Puzzler

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 02:53 AM

But when the priests fancy that they have entirely extinguished the light of Frya and Jessos, then shall all classes of men rise up who have quietly preserved the truth among themselves, and have hidden it from the priests. They shall be of princely blood of priests, Slavonic, and Frya’s blood. They will make their light visible, so that all men shall see the truth; they shall cry woe to the acts of the princes and the priests. The princes who love the truth and justice shall separate themselves from the priests; blood shall flow, but from it the people will gather new strength.

While the ancient history of Turkmenistan is largely shrouded in mystery, its past since the arrival of Indo-European Iranian tribes around 2000 BC is often the starting point of the area's discernible history. Early tribes were nomadic or semi-nomadic due to the arid conditions of the region as the steppe culture in Central Asia was an extension of a larger Eurasian series of horse cultures which spanned the entire spectrum of language families including the Proto-Indo-Europeans and Altaic groups. Some of the known early Iranian tribes included the Massagatae, Scythians/Sakas, and early Soghdians (most likely precursors of the Khwarezmians). Turkmenistan was a passing point for numerous migrations and invasions by tribes which gravitated towards the settled regions of the south including ancient Mesopotamia, Elam, and the Indus Valley Civilization.

The region's written history begins with the region's conquest by the Achaemenid Empire of ancient Iran, as the region was divided between the satrapys of Margiana, Chorasmia and Parthia. Later conquerors included Alexander the Great, the Parni, Ephthalites, Huns, Göktürks, Sarmatians, and Sassanid Iranians. During this early phase of history, the majority of Turkmenistan's inhabitants were either adherents of Zoroastrianism or Buddhism and the region was largely dominated by Iranian peoples

http://en.wikipedia....of_Turkmenistan

So, the Trojans may have been from this area too. An early Persian, which does then make the name of Priam sound more in relation to everything as ransom, sacrifice - beloved, free.



The territory of Turkmenistan has been populated since ancient times, especially the areas near oasis of Merv, where traces of human settlements have been found. Tribes of horse-breeding Iranian Scythians drifted into the territory of Turkmenistan at about 2000 BC, possibly from the Russian steppes and moved along the outskirts of the Karakum desert into Iran, Syria, and Anatolia.

Hector, tamer of horses would have been a horse-breeder, particularly with thier lovely Trojan horses. The Trojan Horse was warmly taken in by most Trojans as a gift from the Gods - a horse God for the horse people. Funny also that horse can be asa (ass, donkey) A life force too, a kind of fire force, fast running, like lightening or pulling sun chariots.

Horses, truth and the bow and arrow, all found at Troy. Cassandra's prophecies were the TRUTH but everyone thought she was LYING.

Cassandra was a truth speaker. Cassiopeia is a similar name. Of Ethiopia. Could this Ethiopia then, have been a Kingdom of Persia. I'd say so, since Memnon came from a Trojan line at Susa.

An Indian/Bactrian connection with Persians, probably in the times of the Rig Veda.

Dionysus from India/Ethiopia. Mt Meru in India and Ethiopia. Indians described as Ethiopians by Herodotus, a complete confusion between India and Ethiopia.

"Persians and Phoenicians best informed in history"

Seems to me then that a Persian influence was definitely in Mycenae.

I also noticed that things I saw as Assyrian were also Persian emblems. Then I thought that it's very possible then that Etruscans are a Persian type. Especially since liver divining is found in Babylon too.

The Greek myths imo would not be adverse to covering up what was a Persian history in Greece. The stories had to be written to disconnect Greeks from their now enemy, once their kin.

Phoenicians in Thebes is simply a cover for this too. Both were in Greece and both are part of the Greeks. Dionysus came from Selene of Thebes, the moon in the myth. He was in Thebes, a Phoenician or Persian, the Dionysus people from Bactria.

The stories of this seem ancient and very odd. Like the Greeks went into India - these could be a recollection of the Aryan intrusion into the area of North India, then how these people also came into Greece, an early 2nd wave Mycenaean element maybe - that built Mycenae.

They were big Central European men, an early celtic type with yellow hair and blue eyes, with carts and chariots and wheels who arrived in India and mixed and then when they came out and headed West again, everything was different - they now had an Asian character as well. The fire of Apollo flew into India from Eastern Europe, he could be Shiva, Apollo, destroyer - then he came back out, from the East.

Then ice age created a people who became Scandinavians - these people actually moved North from the area of the yellow haired, blue eyed people that were at the Black Sea and also remained there. Around 7000BC men moved into Scandinavia from this area.

Nordic people are actually from Central West Asia and as they took their fairness into the Arctic, they became fairer and they became a very white blonde, blue eyed people. All caucasian, from the Caucasus. Genetics shows blue eyes began c. 10,000BC at the Black Sea - this line in the Western areas, went North imo. The ones who stayed there stayed yellow haired and began to mix so became brown haired and dark eyed or mixed colours. The Celtic/Gaul line retained the yellow hair and blue/green eyes - the Scottish part of Scythians and the Thracians - Several accounts by Greek writers mention redheaded people. A fragment by the Greek poet Xenophanes describes the Thracians as blue-eyed and red haired

ALso this:

The Greek historian Herodotus described the "Budini" (probably Udmurts and Permyak located on the Volga in what is modern-day Russia) as being predominantly redheaded. The Greek historian Dio Cassius described Boudica, the famous Celtic Queen of the Iceni, to be "tall and terrifying in appearance... a great mass of red hair... over her shoulders." Also, several mythological characters from Homer's Iliad (themselves purportedly Greek) are described as being "red-haired" including Menelaus and Achilles.

Menelaus and Achilles, Achilles is golden haired but I guess that could be red haired, maybe a reddish blonde. Menelaus is a definite early Celtic type.

If Achilles mother practises fire - it could be a red head thing too - the red hair is fiery temper because the red hair stands for fire, the fire people oddly enough, probably had reddish hair.

asa - asi - aci - achi - achaeans. Achilles.

How about that one - Achilles is the life force - his death will bring immortality - which his mother tells him it will. His death at the hands of fire that is, APOLLO'S ARROW killed Achilles, fired by Paris. Not part of the original story but part of the story no less.


Troy was purified by burning.

It could be a most ancient practice seen also in the Vinca culture - you burned your old village/town/city to PURIFY it - then built a new one.

Edited by The Puzzler, 01 May 2011 - 02:55 AM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#4537    Abramelin

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 04:46 AM

View PostOtharus, on 01 May 2011 - 02:36 AM, said:

It is because Halbertsma was a part of the Frisian Elite, and because he knew pretty much everything there was to know at that time about Frisian language and history, that he could have created something that the Frisian elite would have loved.

But the OLB had the opposite effect on them.

It terrified and insulted them.

They hated it.

This is one of the reasons why someone with his skills and motives could not have done it, for he would have done a much better job pleasing the crowds.

The idea that it was an exercise by his hand that someone stole, or that someone finished what he started...

I won't waste many words on that.

To use your vocabulary: desperate crap.~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

The OLB contains elements that even someone like Eelco Verwijs felt embarrassed about, and he can be considered as one of the most open-minded, provocative, hedonistic bohemians of his time. Jensma describes him as completely unethical (I think we would love this guy).

Example: the fragment with the foul Fin "nilst min kul navt sâ skilst min swêrd ha".
(Ref.: letter Verwijs to Over de Linden)

I am not deparate, I'm quite relaxed, lol, thank you.

Now look at this:


It appears to me that Willem van Haren had not just made up his "land of the Alans".. there actually WAS a Land of the Alans in what is now north-west Germany, bordered in the north by...the old Rüstringen county, hahaha !!

85.12. The author of this map thinks that the Ambrones (a people who went into Italy with the Danes, and were slain and overthrown by emperor Marius, as Plutarchus records) dwelt in this area and their name still lives among the people they call Amelanders. He has the same opinion about the Alani Saxones who he truly believes to have dwelled sometime near lake Alana in this province, on both sides of the river Alana, even as high up as the castle of Oria now called Lengener, as who would say Alani and Averlenger, that is, the Alanes on the further side.

http://www.orteliusm...ort_text85.html

(and what is that about "Amelanders"??? )
===

Ortelius, A. - OLDENBURG COMIT.


http://www.swaen.com...-of.php?id=3973

And see on the next map: Alanorum Saxonum Regio:

Posted Image


#4538    The Puzzler

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 05:48 AM

Today, red hair is most commonly found at the northern and western fringes of Europe; it is associated particularly with the people located in the United Kingdom and in Ireland (although Victorian era ethnographers claimed that the Udmurt people of the Volga were "the most red-headed men in the world").[8] Redheads are common among Germanic and Celtic peoples.

The Volga area is associated with Asaland, that's exactly where Snorri places it.

In European culture, prior to the 20th century, red hair was often seen as a stereotypically Jewish trait: during the Spanish Inquisition, all those with red hair were identified as Jewish.

and

The Berber populations of Morocco[20] and northern Algeria have occasional redheads. Red hair frequency is especially significant among the Kabyles from Algeria, where it reaches 4 percent.[21][22] The Queen of Morocco, Lalla Salma wife of king Mohammed VI, has red hair. Abd ar-Rahman I also had red hair, his mother being a Christian Berber slave

nd this

Montague Summers, in his translation of the Malleus Maleficarum,[56] notes that red hair and green eyes were thought to be the sign of a witch, a werewolf or a vampire during the Middle Ages;

Those whose hair is red, of a certain peculiar shade, are unmistakably vampires. It is significant that in ancient Egypt, as Manetho tells us, human sacrifices were offered at the grave of Osiris, and the victims were red-haired men who were burned, their ashes being scattered far and wide by winnowing-fans. It is held by some authorities that this was done to fertilize the fields and produce a bounteous harvest, red-hair symbolizing the golden wealth of the corn. But these men were called Typhonians, and were representatives not of Osiris but of his evil rival Typhon, whose hair was red.


Elizabeth the 1st was a red head.

The term ang mo (simplified Chinese: 红毛; pinyin: hóng máo; Pe̍h-ōe-jī: âng-mo͘) in Hokkien (Min Nan) Chinese means "red-haired",[73] and is used in Malaysia and Singapore to refer to white people. The epithet is sometimes rendered as ang mo kui (红毛鬼) meaning "red-haired devil", similar to the Cantonese term gweilo ("foreign devil"). Thus it is viewed as racist and derogatory by some Caucasians.[74] Others, however, maintain it is acceptable.[75] Despite this ambiguity, it is a widely used term. It appears, for instance, in Singaporean newspapers such as The Straits Times,[76] and in television programmes and films.

The Chinese characters for ang mo are the same as those in the historical Japanese term Kōmō (紅毛), which was used during the Edo period (1603–1868) as an epithet for (northwestern European) white people. It primarily referred to Dutch traders who were the only Europeans allowed to trade with Japan during Sakoku, its 200-year period of isolation


All these people had red hair too in religion...

Red is the preferred dyeing color in Islam. It is said that Muhammad used to dye his hair red.[78]


A red-haired Judas betrays Jesus with a kiss in a Spanish paso figureEsau's entire body is supposed to have been covered with red hair.[citation needed] King David is also known for having red hair, based on the description of his physical appearance as "admoni", the Biblical Hebrew word normally interpreted to mean "ruddy" and/or "red-haired" (1 Samuel 16-17).

Judas Iscariot is also represented with red hair in Spanish culture[79][80][81] and in the works of William Shakespeare,[82] reinforcing the negative stereotype. In Spain the prejudice is extended to so-colored cats and dogs.[80]

Early artistic representations of Mary Magdalene usually depict her as having long flowing red hair, although a description of her hair color was never mentioned in the Bible, and it is possible the color is an effect caused by pigment degradation in the ancient paint. This tradition is used as a plot device in the book and movie The Da Vinci Code.[citation needed]

Thor, of Norse mythology, was generally portrayed as having red hair. Another Norse God Loki, the mischievous trickster god was portrayed with red hair.[citation needed]

Ancient Egyptians associated both red-haired humans and red-colored animals with the god Set, considering them to be favored by the powerful and temperamental deity.[citation needed]

There is a tradition amongst astrologers that the planet Mars ("the red planet") is more likely to be rising above the eastern horizon (on or near the astrological Ascendant, which supposedly influences a person's appearance) at the time of the birth of a red haired person than for the population in general.[83]

Achilles, the central character of Homer's Iliad, is described as having red hair, possibly contributing to the original myths of temperament


Achilles with red hair in conflicting but maybe it was blondey red as golden I think is the word mostly used. Strawberry blonde.

Aries, Thracians, red planet, Mars - Thracians had red hair.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#4539    Abramelin

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 05:54 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 01 May 2011 - 04:46 AM, said:

I am not deparate, I'm quite relaxed, lol, thank you.

Now look at this:


It appears to me that Willem van Haren had not just made up his "land of the Alans".. there actually WAS a Land of the Alans in what is now north-west Germany, bordered in the north by...the old Rüstringen county, hahaha !!

85.12. The author of this map thinks that the Ambrones (a people who went into Italy with the Danes, and were slain and overthrown by emperor Marius, as Plutarchus records) dwelt in this area and their name still lives among the people they call Amelanders. He has the same opinion about the Alani Saxones who he truly believes to have dwelled sometime near lake Alana in this province, on both sides of the river Alana, even as high up as the castle of Oria now called Lengener, as who would say Alani and Averlenger, that is, the Alanes on the further side.

http://www.orteliusm...ort_text85.html

(and what is that about "Amelanders"??? )
===

Ortelius, A. - OLDENBURG COMIT.


http://www.swaen.com...-of.php?id=3973

And see on the next map: Alanorum Saxonum Regio:

Posted Image


EDIT:

Some will say it was known the Alani were in Germany, and that's true. But no online maps shows them that far north (and even at the North Sea coast) of Germany.
Well, except this map by Ortelius.

++

I keep forgetting something:

The Alans in Willen van Haren's epic poem asked Friso to kill a dragon (living on the socalled "Rode Klif" = Red Cliff, near Staveren, Friesland).

Interesting thing is that the Alans were known to carry a dragon in their banner (they are depicted carrying such a banner, from Normandy to Russia). And.. that they were a Sarmatian tribe... Sarmatian meaning nothing but 'lizards' (because of their armour plating and that same banner).

Posted Image


.
.

Edited by Abramelin, 01 May 2011 - 05:56 AM.


#4540    The Puzzler

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 06:01 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 01 May 2011 - 04:46 AM, said:

I am not deparate, I'm quite relaxed, lol, thank you.

Now look at this:


It appears to me that Willem van Haren had not just made up his "land of the Alans".. there actually WAS a Land of the Alans in what is now north-west Germany, bordered in the north by...the old Rüstringen county, hahaha !!

85.12. The author of this map thinks that the Ambrones (a people who went into Italy with the Danes, and were slain and overthrown by emperor Marius, as Plutarchus records) dwelt in this area and their name still lives among the people they call Amelanders. He has the same opinion about the Alani Saxones who he truly believes to have dwelled sometime near lake Alana in this province, on both sides of the river Alana, even as high up as the castle of Oria now called Lengener, as who would say Alani and Averlenger, that is, the Alanes on the further side.

http://www.orteliusm...ort_text85.html

(and what is that about "Amelanders"??? )
===

Ortelius, A. - OLDENBURG COMIT.


http://www.swaen.com...-of.php?id=3973

And see on the next map: Alanorum Saxonum Regio:

Posted Image
Showing that Alans spoke Rustringen shows, if anything, the OLB is correct.

The Alans were people who were Indo-Iranian, I also believe the Dutch language is from them.

You're missing the point of how they got the language in the first place for it to come back in very similar but different to the writing of the OLB. A form may have existed before the one the Alans bought in. An earlier form of their language - which seems rather like Frisian - the one in the OLB went out and ancestors of the Alans spoke it, then it got Ironized you could say and came back in.

Let's say a word like Frya was spoken by all the Fryans at first - then as they moved east they picked up a more Eastern variation and Yrans became Iranians or Irons - then came back in like that - Alewyn said FRIA. The word of the OLB is FRYA.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#4541    Abramelin

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 06:21 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 01 May 2011 - 06:01 AM, said:

Showing that Alans spoke Rustringen shows, if anything, the OLB is correct.

The Alans were people who were Indo-Iranian, I also believe the Dutch language is from them.

You're missing the point of how they got the language in the first place for it to come back in very similar but different to the writing of the OLB. A form may have existed before the one the Alans bought in. An earlier form of their language - which seems rather like Frisian - the one in the OLB went out and ancestors of the Alans spoke it, then it got Ironized you could say and came back in.

Let's say a word like Frya was spoken by all the Fryans at first - then as they moved east they picked up a more Eastern variation and Yrans became Iranians or Irons - then came back in like that - Alewyn said FRIA. The word of the OLB is FRYA.

No, I was showing the Alans lived right below Rüstringen, the county that once spoke Halbertsma's favorite Frisian dialect.

These Alans show up in that poem by Willem van Haren, about Friso arriving, after travelling from India/Persia, in the Land of the Alans. It's possible of course that the area the Alans lived in included Frisia in earlier times.

But.. these Alans only show up that far north on... an old map by a Dutch (15/16/ or 17th century) cartographer, Ortelius. And of course in that legend about the Alan chieftain who lived in Denmark (Widewuto) who went/fled with his brother Bruteno to Prussia (and gave it that name).

Btw, what makes you think Dutch is an Indo-Iranian language? I hope it's not from the Britam site...

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Edited by Abramelin, 01 May 2011 - 06:24 AM.


#4542    Alewyn

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 06:40 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 28 April 2011 - 03:10 AM, said:

Abe, I don't really see a problem with daleth.

What I see though, is why the Christians probably have a fish symbol for Jesus.

He was the deliverer of the message of freedom.

Whatever fish means in Egypt to do with Daleth it would certainly (imo) still be attached to del/dal meanings of some kind. He delivered us - from our sins (selves).

It also might have something to do with why many people just ate fish last Friday.
The fish is not a symbol for Jesus. It is a symbol for Christians. In the first few centuries AD the Christians were persecuted and they used this symbol to identify one another in secret.
Jesus recruited his first disciples from fishermen. He told them: "Follow me and I will make you fishers of men." (Mathew 4, and the Gospels of Mark and Luke).
In other words, as followers of Jesus Christ they were told to spread the Gospel and to recruit people for Christianity.
Also see the "Great Commission"


#4543    The Puzzler

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 06:51 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 01 May 2011 - 05:54 AM, said:

Interesting thing is that the Alans were known to carry a dragon in their banner (they are depicted carrying such a banner, from Normandy to Russia). And.. that they were a Sarmatian tribe... Sarmatian meaning nothing but 'lizards' (because of their armour plating and that same banner).

Posted Image


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Agamemnon has a blue dragon on his sword belt and breastplate.

Memnon imo is King. Aga I think is silver - I think he's king and treasurer and the Treasury at Mycenae was possibly relative to him or his people - who again, were probably early Indo-Europeans, Linear B confirms this.

It could have been a snake but the word is drakon.

In Jewish religious texts, the first mention of a dragon-like creature is in the Biblical works of Job (26:13), and Isaiah (27:1) where it is called Nachash Bare'ach, or a "Pole Serpent".[13] This is identified in the Midrash Rabba to Genesis 1:21 as Leviathan from the word Taninim (תנינים) "and God created the great sea-monsters."[14] In modern Hebrew the word Taninim is used for Crocodiles but this is a 20th century usage unconnected with the original Biblical meaning.[citation needed]

In Jewish astronomy this is also identified with the North Pole, the star Thuban which, around 4,500 years ago, was the star in the Draco constellation's "tail".[13] However this can also have been either the celestial pole or the ecliptic pole. The ancient observers noted that Draco was at the top of the celestial pole, giving the appearance that stars were "hanging" from it, and in Hebrew it is referred to as Teli, from talah (תלה) – to hang.[15] Hebrew writers from Arabic-speaking locations identified the Teli as Al Jaz'har, which is a Persian word for a "knot" or a "node" because of the intersection of the inclination of the orbit of a planet from the elliptic that forms two such nodes. In modern astronomy these are called the ascending node and the descending node, but in medieval astronomy they were referred to as "dragon's head" and "dragon's tail".[16]

Rahab, as described in Psalms 89:9–10 and Isaiah 51:9–10, also has "dragon-like" characteristics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon

The stars were 'hanging' from it - like that tent door - del/daleth - delta - door

The Pole Star may have been it's eye.

I also think each change of Pole star bought change and meaning for the ancients. Everything is astronomical really.

Drac/ula - draco - Romanian dragons with teeth that drained your life force.

Here's another pic of the Dacian Draco like the ones the Alans have on their banner...

Posted Image

Perhaps the distinctions between dragons of western origin and Chinese dragons are arbitrary, since the later Roman dragon was certainly of Iranian origin: in the Roman Empire, where each military cohort had a particular identifying signum, (military standard), after the Parthian and Dacian Wars of Trajan in the east, the Dacian Draco military standard entered the Legion with the Cohors Sarmatarum and Cohors Dacorum (Sarmatian and Dacian cohorts)—a large dragon fixed to the end of a lance, with large gaping jaws of silver and with the rest of the body formed of colored silk. With the jaws facing into the wind, the silken body inflated and rippled, resembling a windsock.[2] This signum is described in the surviving epitome of Vegetius De Re Militari 379 CE—"The first sign of the entire legion is the eagle, which the eagle-bearer carries. In addition, dragons are carried into battle by each cohort, by the 'dragoneers'"[3]—and in Ammianus Marcellinus, xvi. 10, 7.[4] Parthia lies athwart the Silk Road, the cultural thread between East and West:[5] it is hard to deny all connection between this Romanized Parthian dragon and distant Chinese origins.

http://en.wikipedia....European_dragon

Their first symbol was the eagle. They appear to be some sort of Assyrian to me and the iconology to Persia is very much the same, lions, sphinxs.

It has also been speculated that the red dragon of Wales may have even earlier origins in the Sarmatian-influenced Draco standards carried by Late Roman cavalry, who would have been the primary defence against the Saxons
http://en.wikipedia....European_dragon

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#4544    The Puzzler

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 06:53 AM

View PostAlewyn, on 01 May 2011 - 06:40 AM, said:

The fish is not a symbol for Jesus. It is a symbol for Christians. In the first few centuries AD the Christians were persecuted and they used this symbol to identify one another in secret.
Jesus recruited his first disciples from fishermen. He told them: "Follow me and I will make you fishers of men." (Mathew 4, and the Gospels of Mark and Luke).
In other words, as followers of Jesus Christ they were told to spread the Gospel and to recruit people for Christianity.
Also see the "Great Commission"
Christians - Jesus

Yep, I know, one of them used to draw the top half of the fish and then another would finish it off with the bottom part.

But what is the message behind the usage of the fish symbol itself...

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#4545    Abramelin

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 07:19 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 01 May 2011 - 06:53 AM, said:

Christians - Jesus

Yep, I know, one of them used to draw the top half of the fish and then another would finish it off with the bottom part.

But what is the message behind the usage of the fish symbol itself...

ICHTUS = Fish

It's an abbreviation:

Iēsous Christos, Theou Huios, Sōtēr.

Iota (i) is the first letter of Iēsous (Ἰησοῦς), Greek for "Jesus".
Chi (ch) is the first letter of Christos (Χριστός), Greek for "anointed".
Theta (th) is the first letter of Theou (Θεοῦ), Greek for "God's", the genitive case of Θεóς, Theos, Greek for "God".
Upsilon (u) is the first letter of huios (Υἱός), Greek for "Son".
Sigma (s) is the first letter of sōtēr (Σωτήρ), Greek for "Savior".

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Edited by Abramelin, 01 May 2011 - 07:21 AM.