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The Alleged Sons of God


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#1    Ben Masada

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 06:00 PM

THE ALLEGED SONS OF GOD
  

According to an ancient Roman policy, any able-bodied man from the conquered lands, who joined the Roman Army, would obtain authomatic citizenship. And if he was lucky enough to reach retirement age, he could choose where he would like to spend the rest of his life, and he would be granted a piece of land or farm as severance pay for his services to the Empire. Rome excluded.

When the Roman Legions arrived in the Middle East and conquered Sidon, a man called Pantera applied to join the Army and was accepted. Then, he was conscripted into the Roman Legion which got stationed in Syria. When he reached retirement age, he chose to return to Sidon and got his farm there to live for the rest of his life.

According to Josephus, in the year 4 BCE, there was a local revolt in Israel against Herod. It became known as the Revolt of the Pharisees. It was so strong that it was threatening to depose him. Herod appealed to Rome for help and Caesar gave orders to the Legion stationed in Syria to cross over into Israel and put down the revolt.

Thousands of Roman soldiers came over and the task was quite easy. They crucified a few thousand Jews, and decided to stay for some time to make sure the discontent were subdued. In the meantime, the Roman soldiers would rape young Jewish ladies, at their hearts content, almost daily.

As it was to expect, many children were born as a result of those rapes. Since the unfortunate mothers were not to blame for promiscuity, the religious authorities forbade to ostracize them or to consider their children as mamzerim or ba$tards. But they grew up with the epithet of "sons of God." (Lecture on the "Historical Jesus" at Stanphord University)

Since Jesus was born just about that time, I am of the opinion that, it is much more prudent and less embarrassing to acknowledge that he was a biological son of Joseph's than to run the risk that Jesus might have been one of those sons of God.

Now, regarding Mark 7:24, I have here with me two different Bible translations. One is the Catholic New American version of the Bible, wherefrom, I read that when Jesus went to Sidon, he would retire into a certain house and wanted no one to recognize him in there. The other translation is the King James version, wherefrom, I read that when Jesus went to Sidon, he would enter into a certain house and would have no man know it.

Although I am not assuming anything, everyone of us has all the right in the world to speculate about such a shouting evidence, and to think that there was something fishy going on for Jesus to insist on secrecy about his being in Sidon or in that certain house. At that time Joseph had been long dead. Could it be that jesus knew about his real origins and was interacting with his real father? Everything is possible, but if you ask me, I am still in favor that he was rather a biological son of Joseph's.

What's your reaction to all the above?

Ben:


#2    Paranoid Android

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 08:43 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 21 April 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

What's your reaction to all the above?

Ben:
I guess my reaction is to ask your evidence that Mary was raped by a Roman soldier.  You mention Pantera, so I assume you are referring to Celsus' reference to a Roman Centurion by that name who is alleged to have been Jesus' father.  If so, I must say I find it amusing that you tout the validity of this version of events while accuse earlier manuscripts (1st Century AD) of being "pious forgeries" (see your other threads).  Why is a late 2nd Century writing (appearing only in history because of a 3rd Century Christian author quoting him) seen by you as reliable while other 1st Century texts are ignored as forgeries?

On the other hand, if your question is less directed and the mention of Pantera is removed, I guess this becomes a matter of belief - was Mary raped by a Roman solder/centurion? Was she having sex before marriage with Joseph, and made up a story to cover it up?  Was she really visited by the Holy Spirit?  The question becomes whatever you wish it to become.  Those who believe virgin births are possible will accept possible supernatural occurrence.  Those who believe they are impossible will say it must have been a human agent (whether Joseph or some Roman soldier dude, or someone else entirely.... up for debate).

Edited by Paranoid Android, 21 April 2012 - 08:45 PM.

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#3    Mr Walker

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 01:41 AM

We are all sons and daughters of god. :innocent:

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#4    and then

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 03:18 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 21 April 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

I guess my reaction is to ask your evidence that Mary was raped by a Roman soldier.  You mention Pantera, so I assume you are referring to Celsus' reference to a Roman Centurion by that name who is alleged to have been Jesus' father.  If so, I must say I find it amusing that you tout the validity of this version of events while accuse earlier manuscripts (1st Century AD) of being "pious forgeries" (see your other threads).  Why is a late 2nd Century writing (appearing only in history because of a 3rd Century Christian author quoting him) seen by you as reliable while other 1st Century texts are ignored as forgeries?

On the other hand, if your question is less directed and the mention of Pantera is removed, I guess this becomes a matter of belief - was Mary raped by a Roman solder/centurion? Was she having sex before marriage with Joseph, and made up a story to cover it up?  Was she really visited by the Holy Spirit?  The question becomes whatever you wish it to become.  Those who believe virgin births are possible will accept possible supernatural occurrence.  Those who believe they are impossible will say it must have been a human agent (whether Joseph or some Roman soldier dude, or someone else entirely.... up for debate).
It appears his whole purpose is to bait imo.  He knows it would be terribly offensive to Christians to hear that Christ was the b****** product of a rape.  Assuming of course that any real Christian would have their faith swayed by such nonsense.  It seems a strange way to amuse oneself but to each his own.

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 04:39 AM

View PostBen Masada, on 21 April 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

THE ALLEGED SONS OF GOD
  

According to an ancient Roman policy, any able-bodied man from the conquered lands, who joined the Roman Army, would obtain authomatic citizenship. And if he was lucky enough to reach retirement age, he could choose where he would like to spend the rest of his life, and he would be granted a piece of land or farm as severance pay for his services to the Empire. Rome excluded.

When the Roman Legions arrived in the Middle East and conquered Sidon, a man called Pantera applied to join the Army and was accepted. Then, he was conscripted into the Roman Legion which got stationed in Syria. When he reached retirement age, he chose to return to Sidon and got his farm there to live for the rest of his life.

According to Josephus, in the year 4 BCE, there was a local revolt in Israel against Herod. It became known as the Revolt of the Pharisees. It was so strong that it was threatening to depose him. Herod appealed to Rome for help and Caesar gave orders to the Legion stationed in Syria to cross over into Israel and put down the revolt.

Thousands of Roman soldiers came over and the task was quite easy. They crucified a few thousand Jews, and decided to stay for some time to make sure the discontent were subdued. In the meantime, the Roman soldiers would rape young Jewish ladies, at their hearts content, almost daily.

As it was to expect, many children were born as a result of those rapes. Since the unfortunate mothers were not to blame for promiscuity, the religious authorities forbade to ostracize them or to consider their children as mamzerim or ba$tards. But they grew up with the epithet of "sons of God." (Lecture on the "Historical Jesus" at Stanphord University)

Since Jesus was born just about that time, I am of the opinion that, it is much more prudent and less embarrassing to acknowledge that he was a biological son of Joseph's than to run the risk that Jesus might have been one of those sons of God.

Now, regarding Mark 7:24, I have here with me two different Bible translations. One is the Catholic New American version of the Bible, wherefrom, I read that when Jesus went to Sidon, he would retire into a certain house and wanted no one to recognize him in there. The other translation is the King James version, wherefrom, I read that when Jesus went to Sidon, he would enter into a certain house and would have no man know it.

Although I am not assuming anything, everyone of us has all the right in the world to speculate about such a shouting evidence, and to think that there was something fishy going on for Jesus to insist on secrecy about his being in Sidon or in that certain house. At that time Joseph had been long dead. Could it be that jesus knew about his real origins and was interacting with his real father? Everything is possible, but if you ask me, I am still in favor that he was rather a biological son of Joseph's.

What's your reaction to all the above?

Ben:
Well... I'm not saying your snalysis is the right one... But I would agree with you that something happened to Mary along those lines. Maby not a Roman soldier. Potentially young people fullfilling their biological imperative. But of course Christians can never accept their truelly humble roots. This is their heel.

View PostMr Walker, on 22 April 2012 - 01:41 AM, said:

We are all sons and daughters of god. :innocent:
My thoughts exactly.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#6    Ides plus 12

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 02:32 PM

Ben:

I must say that I am deeply impressed with the historical perspectives you bring-up.  Anyone who dismisses you as being 'argumentative' is missing-out on what you bring to the table.  I wish we had all the answers and I can't wait for the day when all is revealed.  We can't ignore what is substantiated in history; unfortunately, the historical record is incomplete... what a shame that the Great Library of Alexandria was burned for much of the historical record was lost there.
The most notable thing about the story of Yeshua is that after 2000 years it is still a hotly debated story--almost self-evident that it is no ordinary story.

Edited by Ides plus 12, 23 April 2012 - 02:42 PM.


#7    CommunitarianKevin

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 02:41 PM

I think aliens planted Jesus inside of Mary.

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#8    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 06:25 PM

View Postand then, on 22 April 2012 - 03:18 AM, said:

It appears his whole purpose is to bait imo.  He knows it would be terribly offensive to Christians to hear that Christ was the b****** product of a rape.  Assuming of course that any real Christian would have their faith swayed by such nonsense.  It seems a strange way to amuse oneself but to each his own.

I used to think that with a few of Bens posts... But I no longer feel that way.... I feel he has a right to post up his beliefs  just like the rest of you...  If his beliefs  do not fall into your own, that's just  one of those things...  


Your beliefs do not match  mine,  yet if you post up what you see God as  ect,  I will not call it bait all because it is not what I personally believe.... See what I am saying?

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#9    Paranoid Android

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 06:36 PM

View PostIdes plus 12, on 23 April 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

what a shame that the Great Library of Alexandria was burned for much of the historical record was lost there.
Hi Ides +12,

Welcome to UM and I hope that your stay here is a productive one.  I read your post and this sentence in particular leapt out at me.  When I first joined this website I often heard about the Library at Alexandria.  I heard how it was burned down by Christians, and how much information was lost because of what they had done.  At the time, I thought it sad, and put it down to human nature, and to a great degree I simply accepted what people here said because I had no other frame of reference.

Then one day a while back (mid-2010, to be exact) I took a deeper look into it, and found something quite unexpected.  The Library had been burned down several times in history, and the time that was attributed to the Christians, there weren't actually any books in the library at the time (due to the previous burning, all remaining books were kept in another repository).  The reason the Christians burned down the Library was because of the images of other gods in the place, the Christians thought it heretical.  Definitely a loss in archaeology, but there is very little chance that the Christians actually destroyed any documents.  And more to the point, the reason for the burning of the library was not to hide information (as is often accompanied by these claims) but simply because the library was idolising other gods besides the Christian God.  

Every now and then I see people accusing the Christian Church of burning down the Library at Alexandria in order to bury records that they did not want to be made known, and I just wanted to ensure that there was no misunderstanding here.  All the best, and as I said at the start I wish you all the best in your stay here at this most excellent forum :tu:

~ Regards, PA

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#10    Ides plus 12

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:51 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 23 April 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

Hi Ides +12,

Welcome to UM and I hope that your stay here is a productive one.  I read your post and this sentence in particular leapt out at me.  When I first joined this website I often heard about the Library at Alexandria.  I heard how it was burned down by Christians, and how much information was lost because of what they had done.  At the time, I thought it sad, and put it down to human nature, and to a great degree I simply accepted what people here said because I had no other frame of reference.



Hi back PA,

Thank you for the kind regard.  I guess I have heard many variations of what happened to the Library and, more importantly, its contents; but, I have learned to refrain from knee-jerk judgments because history has so many twists.  Regardless of the reason, the loss of most of that historical record is a source of much confusion and conflict.
One variant is that secret societies had taken and kept the prime documents from the rest of us...a conspiracy theory, Yes! Much suspicious evidence and no proof.
As I am a seeker, I happened upon this site and only recently joined the discussion which I seldom do -- and some sites, if they don't agree with what you post pull it anyway.  
Again, thanks and I wish all is well with you.

Ides +12


#11    Mr Walker

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 02:08 AM

View PostHuttonEtAl, on 23 April 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

I think aliens planted Jesus inside of Mary.
Well, is'nt that "a given", even to christians." Neither god nor the holy spirit is human. :devil:

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#12    Ben Masada

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 06:30 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 21 April 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

I guess my reaction is to ask your evidence that Mary was raped by a Roman soldier.  You mention Pantera, so I assume you are referring to Celsus' reference to a Roman Centurion by that name who is alleged to have been Jesus' father.  If so, I must say I find it amusing that you tout the validity of this version of events while accuse earlier manuscripts (1st Century AD) of being "pious forgeries" (see your other threads).  Why is a late 2nd Century writing (appearing only in history because of a 3rd Century Christian author quoting him) seen by you as reliable while other 1st Century texts are ignored as forgeries?

On the other hand, if your question is less directed and the mention of Pantera is removed, I guess this becomes a matter of belief - was Mary raped by a Roman solder/centurion? Was she having sex before marriage with Joseph, and made up a story to cover it up?  Was she really visited by the Holy Spirit?  The question becomes whatever you wish it to become.  Those who believe virgin births are possible will accept possible supernatural occurrence.  Those who believe they are impossible will say it must have been a human agent (whether Joseph or some Roman soldier dude, or someone else entirely.... up for debate).

Listen Paranoid, I have a question for you. As you know by now, I am Jewish. I have set before me the Tanach, which is the Bible of Judaism and the NT, which is the Christian Bible. While the Christian Bible vandalizes Judaism with the message of a Jewish demigod, which is the son of a god with an earthly woman, I have also the testimony by Celsus that Jesus could have been born as a result of a rape by a Roman soldier. Since there is no such a thing in Judaism, what do you think I should go with, the NT or Celsus? Do you want to know who is at fault here? Neither myself nor Celsus but the NT. If the NT had pickep up a Greek to say that Mary had been conceived by the "Holy Spirit" to bear Jesus, we would not be having this discussion today. But, for heaven's sake, give me the benefit of the doubt. Jesus was a Jewish man and not a Greek.
Ben


#13    Ben Masada

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 06:39 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 22 April 2012 - 01:41 AM, said:

We are all sons and daughters of god. :innocent:

Yes, in that sense, I agree with you, but not according to the Greek myth of the demigod, which is the son of a god with an earthly woman. There is not such a thing in Judaism, which was the Faith of Jesus. What do we read in Revelation 14:12? "Here is the patience of the saints; those who keep
the commandments of God and the Faith of Jesus." Which means, those who live according to the Law and Judaism.
Ben


#14    Ben Masada

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 06:47 PM

View Postand then, on 22 April 2012 - 03:18 AM, said:

It appears his whole purpose is to bait imo.  He knows it would be terribly offensive to Christians to hear that Christ was the b****** product of a rape.  Assuming of course that any real Christian would have their faith swayed by such nonsense.  It seems a strange way to amuse oneself but to each his own.

Hey 'and then', that's not my intention to bring up the truth as I understand it in the NT, but my way to fight back Replacement Theology. I mean, the vandalism of Judaism by Christianity. Thousands of Jews are getting lost to us almost every year by getting converted to Christianity for lack of knowledge of either the Tanach as well as the NT. If we do not stand for what we believe, the next holocaust will be of our own Faith.
Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 25 April 2012 - 06:48 PM.


#15    Ben Masada

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 06:55 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 22 April 2012 - 04:39 AM, said:

Well... I'm not saying your snalysis is the right one... But I would agree with you that something happened to Mary along those lines. Maby not a Roman soldier. Potentially young people fullfilling their biological imperative. But of course Christians can never accept their truelly humble roots. This is their heel.


My thoughts exactly.

Not that it be my wish or belief that any thing of that sort ever happened to Mary. I would rather sustain that Jesus was a biological son of Joseph's than to have such a tragedy happened to Mary. If there is someone here to blame for, Christians are the ones for promoting the Greek myth of the demigod.
Ben





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