254 replies to this topic

[Mr Walker]

Sean93, on 26 December 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

You think that all modern troubles are punishable by the absurdities in Leviticus? It' also important to note that a few of those places you mentioned do such terrible things in their societies with ease because of their religions (killing un-loyal women, gays, refusing to marry etc. , especially the middle east where, in a lot of places, death is the norm for apostates...just look it up, it's a ******* mess that place.


Also, you said " God or no God, people still have the ability to know right from wrong and choose one or the other". Was this a slip on on your part or do you believe that we don't need God to be good and that objective moral values are a lie?

I was responding to a point made that modern educated people wouldn't devise or live by a code like leviticus. Of course, in reality, they do People are all differnt; modernity changes nothing, each individuual and every society lives by the codes it creates or accepts.

Philosophically, and in reality, god is not relvant to human morality. God may give us one reason to choose creative or destructive actions, but whether god exists or not humans will do so, any way.

The christian religion is based on a set of laws built around a set of moral premises. Those premises sometimes apply to humans in general sometimes to how treat humans within a certian social and cutural framework One can agree or disagree withthe morality of individual or social laws within a book like the bible but they are set in a cintext for a specifici purpose They were written in a time when individual rights as such did not exist, and every ones duty was to a society family clan or other group. The concept of basic individual rights for all is a quite modern one and is still evoving even now.
Gays have been killed for many reasons in past societies. In others they are celebrated and revered. It depends on whether they could serve a social function in the society or whether they were seen as adanger to the society. Same with peole seena s differnt in any wayreligion is a social function of socirty not society an dexpresion of religion tha tis the nature of religion Thus humans would treat each other just the same in a non religious society, if such a thing could ever exist.
So today I would obey many of the laws of the bible becusethey are sensible healthproducing, emotionally and psycholgicaly empowering and good for me and for my society Most of the laws would exist in anon religious society anyway to order and regulate our behaviours. But no i wouldn't stone my wife for infidelity, or a gay person for being gay. They are no threat to me and little to my society, but that was not always the case.

I would, however, personally  execute or kill anyone who posed a real threat to me, my family, my neighbourhood or  innocent people anywhere. I dont believe everyone has an innate right to life. We lose that right based on how we chose to behave, just as we lose our right to freedom through certain behaviour.

Humans create our values based on need. There are recognised individual ethics, social ethics, and universal ethics. But i believe universal ethics are non existent. All ethics and moralities are contextual and all are created, logically, as a means of optimising outcomes for people.

Often they are designed to optimise outcomes for the majority at the expense of a minority or of individuals, but that is also a contextual ethical value. Today we tend to put the rights of individuals above those of society. One of our modern failings in my opinion. None of us can survive outside of our society, and so our highest priority should be strengthening our society.

Edited by Mr Walker, 27 December 2012 - 12:45 AM.

[AquilaChrysaetos]

blind pew, on 25 December 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

Why would anybody worship a god that allows children to be molested and killed? If you want my worship you need to give something in return.

He's given us all life, free will, and his only son's life. What praytell hasn't he given you for you to worship him?

Children are molested and killed by our free will because he loves us enough not to intervene. If he intervene's we become robots, with no free will of our own. Besides, the unjust will get what they deserve after death, and the innocent children will get what they deserve after death. The children can still if abused, grow up to become good, and the children that die automatically are God's.

I think God's done well over enough for us, and that perhaps WE are the ones that need to give something in return.

[JGirl]

blind pew, on 25 December 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

Why would anybody worship a god that allows children to be molested and killed? If you want my worship you need to give something in return.

because god doesn't allow or disallow anything that happens here. that's where your problem lies - in thinking someone owes you a life free of strife and pain

Edited by JGirl, 27 December 2012 - 12:55 AM.

[HavocWing]

JGirl, on 27 December 2012 - 12:54 AM, said:

because god doesn't allow or disallow anything that happens here. that's where your problem lies - in thinking someone owes you a life free of strife and pain

So you don't care about innocent children?

[Mr Walker]

HavocWing, on 27 December 2012 - 01:04 AM, said:

So you don't care about innocent children?

One can care about people without blaming god for their predicament. Ask any atheist.

[HavocWing]

Mr Walker, on 27 December 2012 - 01:06 AM, said:

One can care about people without blaming god for their predicament. Ask any atheist.

But why worship a god that does nothing to prevent things like what happened in Newton?  He would be absolutely worthless.

[Sean93]

AquilaChrysaetos, on 27 December 2012 - 12:52 AM, said:

He's given us all life, free will, and his only son's life. What praytell hasn't he given you for you to worship him?

Children are molested and killed by our free will because he loves us enough not to intervene. If he intervene's we become robots, with no free will of our own. Besides, the unjust will get what they deserve after death, and the innocent children will get what they deserve after death. The children can still if abused, grow up to become good, and the children that die automatically are God's.

I think God's done well over enough for us, and that perhaps WE are the ones that need to give something in return.

I never asked for this life.

I don't know if there is some divine plan that has been set in motion that hangs over my life but if I could ask of God only one thing it would to have never been born in the first place to be non-existent and oblivious to everything. so just because you say "He gave us life" doesn't make your argument a winner because no one asked for it in the first place and a small number of people who've been snatched from the comfort of non-existence and put into this world would rather have not had such a thing happen an I am one of them.
You might find this depressing or it may offend your belief of life being sacred but I don't care what you think, that's as plain as I'll put it.

The doctors saved me from some kind of illness when I was just a new-born, something to do with my breathing...and I can't help but feel anger at that because I cannot remember anything of that time and had I have died then, it would be like I never existed so before you spout that stupid, hackneyed "He gave us life!" talk, remember that not everyone wanted it and some see it s nothing more than a prison sentence.

I see life like this - You're in a deep dark sleep, no dreams (oh how I love it), nothing, you're mind is blank....and then someone comes and throws a bucket of ice cold water over your body.

If God came to me and said "Sean, I can erase your memory, put you in a state of nothingness for ever, like you never existed", I would say without reserve "Yes please, can you do it now?"

A lot of people seem to have a fear of nothingness and I can understand that in a way but for me it would be eternal bliss because I wouldn't feel anything.

...Sorry, wrong meeting!

[Sean93]

HavocWing, on 27 December 2012 - 01:16 AM, said:

But why worship a god that does nothing to prevent things like what happened in Newton?  He would be absolutely worthless.

Don't even bother with that question, you're going to get those two words that we've seen time and time again: FREE and WILL...in that order.

[JGirl]

HavocWing, on 27 December 2012 - 01:04 AM, said:

So you don't care about innocent children?

how does that have anything to do with what i said?

[Mr Walker]

HavocWing, on 27 December 2012 - 01:16 AM, said:

But why worship a god that does nothing to prevent things like what happened in Newton?  He would be absolutely worthless.

No.

Let us assume god gave us free will, and in general will not interfere with that free will. For many reaosns this MIGHT be so. None the less, such a god can do many things. He can instruct us not to murder and help establish civil penalties for  murder. He can offer hope of reuniting and eternal life between a parent and child. He can certainly take away a lot of the anger, pain and suffering felt by grieving humans and replace it wih understanding accpetance and love, which will make the remainder of that persons life nuch better physically and psychologically. Even such a god would be far from worthless.

But god MIGHT also help people in more specific ways. There were many survivors of the shooting. It would be interesting to ask how many of then exerperienced the direct hand of god in their survival; guiding them, calming them, helping them think quickly and rationally, to enhace their chances of survival. I know personally from major disasters that there are many such personal encounters and stories from survivors.

[Mr Walker]

Sean93, on 27 December 2012 - 01:30 AM, said:

Don't even bother with that question, you're going to get those two words that we've seen time and time again: FREE and WILL...in that order.

Well, in any logical/philosophical discussion of such a question that IS the rational answer. Any creator "god' can not create a self aware entity capable of learning, growth, and evolution, without allowing them free will. Or to look at it another way, free will is an inevitable consequence of self aware sapience, and evolves as a co dependent property of such awareness. It is via learning from free willed actions, and their consequences, that we learn,  mature, evolve as beings, and grow.

[Sean93]

Mr Walker, on 27 December 2012 - 01:58 AM, said:

Well, in any logical/philosophical discussion of such a question that IS the rational answer. Any creator "god' can not create a self aware entity capable of learning, growth, and evolution, without allowing them free will. Or to look at it another way, free will is an inevitable consequence of self aware sapience, and evolves as a co dependent property of such awareness. It is via learning from free willed actions, and their consequences, that we learn,  mature, evolve as beings, and grow.

Yes I know, I was just telling that dude not to bother with the question and saved him a five page essay on free will by one of the very passionate believers on here...

[Mr Walker]

Sean93, on 27 December 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:

I never asked for this life.

I don't know if there is some divine plan that has been set in motion that hangs over my life but if I could ask of God only one thing it would to have never been born in the first place to be non-existent and oblivious to everything. so just because you say "He gave us life" doesn't make your argument a winner because no one asked for it in the first place and a small number of people who've been snatched from the comfort of non-existence and put into this world would rather have not had such a thing happen an I am one of them.
You might find this depressing or it may offend your belief of life being sacred but I don't care what you think, that's as plain as I'll put it.

The doctors saved me from some kind of illness when I was just a new-born, something to do with my breathing...and I can't help but feel anger at that because I cannot remember anything of that time and had I have died then, it would be like I never existed so before you spout that stupid, hackneyed "He gave us life!" talk, remember that not everyone wanted it and some see it s nothing more than a prison sentence.

I see life like this - You're in a deep dark sleep, no dreams (oh how I love it), nothing, you're mind is blank....and then someone comes and throws a bucket of ice cold water over your body.

If God came to me and said "Sean, I can erase your memory, put you in a state of nothingness for ever, like you never existed", I would say without reserve "Yes please, can you do it now?"

A lot of people seem to have a fear of nothingness and I can understand that in a way but for me it would be eternal bliss because I wouldn't feel anything.

...Sorry, wrong meeting!

This is presumptuous of me, but you have a chioice about how you feel and how you think/respond to your life. I appreciate that, like allof us, you have been conditioned to think and respond in a certain way to life's fortunes, but you do not HAVE to chose to respond so.
At worst you have the ability to end your life, at best you have the abilty to make of it anything you choose, or at least spend your life aiming and striving to do this.

I have several times seen interviews with a man  born with no arms and only one tiny vestigal leg. He now makes millions for his charitable institution, giving inspirational talks around the world, and spends his time helping others. He has tried many things, including surfing and refuses to allow his disabilty to define him. For a short time as a child he felt as you do, but then decided he did not want to live feeling like that. He changed his outlook 180 degrees, decided that he had been given life for a purpose, and  that it was up to him to make the most of it.

Once you are dead you have NO further choices, and all freedom to choose, is taken from you. You no longer have the huge potential which resides in you as a human being.

Edited by Mr Walker, 27 December 2012 - 02:10 AM.

[HavocWing]

Sean93, on 27 December 2012 - 02:00 AM, said:

Yes I know, I was just telling that dude not to bother with the question and saved him a five page essay on free will by one of the very passionate believers on here...

Oh believe me I know how they are.

[AquilaChrysaetos]

Sean93, on 27 December 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:

I never asked for this life.

I don't know if there is some divine plan that has been set in motion that hangs over my life but if I could ask of God only one thing it would to have never been born in the first place to be non-existent and oblivious to everything. so just because you say "He gave us life" doesn't make your argument a winner because no one asked for it in the first place and a small number of people who've been snatched from the comfort of non-existence and put into this world would rather have not had such a thing happen an I am one of them.
You might find this depressing or it may offend your belief of life being sacred but I don't care what you think, that's as plain as I'll put it.

The doctors saved me from some kind of illness when I was just a new-born, something to do with my breathing...and I can't help but feel anger at that because I cannot remember anything of that time and had I have died then, it would be like I never existed so before you spout that stupid, hackneyed "He gave us life!" talk, remember that not everyone wanted it and some see it s nothing more than a prison sentence.

I see life like this - You're in a deep dark sleep, no dreams (oh how I love it), nothing, you're mind is blank....and then someone comes and throws a bucket of ice cold water over your body.

If God came to me and said "Sean, I can erase your memory, put you in a state of nothingness for ever, like you never existed", I would say without reserve "Yes please, can you do it now?"

A lot of people seem to have a fear of nothingness and I can understand that in a way but for me it would be eternal bliss because I wouldn't feel anything.

...Sorry, wrong meeting!

Does an infant ask for it's parents to take care of it? Does it ask to be loved? Does it ask to be given life? No. But it has been given life. And it is in fact loved. That is something that the infant cannot avoid. So if it were to suddnly refuse it's mother's milk, move vigorously to get itself free, fall and break a limb, get beaten and broken by pets or animals or other infants, and not only not ask for but refuse it's parent's aide, who's fault is it that the infant despise's it's existance? You're life IS in fact a blessing, and you ARE in fact loved. You have simply, like myself and every other human that's ever existed, refused your parent's aide.

I'm sure you are undoubtedly aware of all the heartache and pain in the world. You are by no means the only one. I myself have had incredible misfortunes in my life, but it has taken me a long time to come to terms with the fact that I have never asked God to help me. I have never truly applied Christ's teachings to my life, I had never really done what he had said. It wasn't all my fault by far that my life turned out so horribly, it never is for anyone. But I know now that although I can't change other's, I can change myself.

I tell you the truth, there is only one way to save yourself from this misery, and that is to believe and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. I know very well this is most likely all in vain, and that this will all fall on deaf ears, but I must at least give it a try. I understand if you don't accept, in fact most people don't. However I do hope and pray you decide otherwise my friend. If you ever need anything, or need to talk, I'll be here. And so will Christ.