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Is Israel an Apartheid state?


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#16    GoSC

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 04:09 PM

Erikl,

What are your thoughts on Israel's routine practice of refusing Americans of Arab ethicity or Muslim backgrounds to enter its country or the occupied territories it controls. And it also bars those who are critical of Israeli actions or supportive of Palestinian rights?

http://www.guardian....-discrimination

http://www.baltimore...0,4732441.story

http://www.richardsi...waiver-program/

That is racially motivated and discriminatory towards Americans, wouldn't you agree?

Church raptured? Ephesians 3:9-11,21
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

#17    GoSC

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 04:17 PM

View PostErikl, on 07 May 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

These are not images of Israel, these are images of Israelis in contact with non-Israeli Palestinians, and one of these videos was a specific controversy that has nothing to do with the Palestinians (the Ethiopian issue) that was refuted in Israeli media as a conspiracy theory, but seems to still be well alive in the minds of pro-Palestinian propagandists. While my video actually shows an example of how most of Israel is managed, your videos where focusing on specific cases - and that's a great example of propaganda.

Hmm, whatevah, that's a whole lotta of lucky cameramen to catch such "rare" incidences.

Church raptured? Ephesians 3:9-11,21
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

#18    Erikl

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 05:29 PM

View PostB Jenkins, on 07 May 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

Hmm, whatevah, that's a whole lotta of lucky cameramen to catch such "rare" incidences.

Not at all. The Middle East is a harsh region. The disputed territories are managed by non-democratic, corrupted regimes (both PLO and Hamas) with little respect to human life and as such, the area is generally less safe than Israel. Add to that nationalistic agendas of both regimes and nationalistic aspirations of their citizens, and armed Israeli forces. You bound to have some priceless TV coverages, just minutes away from a highly developed major cities in Israel. Book a 5 stars hotel in Jerusalem or Tel-Aviv, and go fetch your 6 o'clock headlines in the real Middle East (the disputed territories), without all the risks or inconvenience of actually living in a harsh country. And the region always provides "shocking" news.

It's also a great place for salon socialists to fight for human rights - there is no real threat to their lives, and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a hot spot in terms of world attention. I would like to see them going to China, Syria or Sudan and fight real horrible human rights violations.

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#19    Yamato

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 08:32 PM

View PostErikl, on 07 May 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

I was referring to your following claim:




Don't try to change the subject that was raised as a result of your erroneous claims.

Palestinians with Israeli citizenship, and they are about 20% of Israeli citizenship today, enjoy full human rights, the same as their fellow Israeli Jews. That's 1 in 5 Israelis. They are the exact same people as the ones living in the West Bank and Gaza, just with Israeli citizenship. Same race, same language, same religion, even same families.

It seems that you go a great length to refute their existence, because it undermines all your "Israel is racist" arguments. If Palestinians living in Israel enjoy full human and political rights, then Israel's actions cannot be the result of some racist agenda to eradicate or ethnic cleanse the Palestinians. So first, you try to deny their entire existence. However, denying they exist, undermines the entire idea of a Palestinian nationhood. It also goes completely against the Palestinian national narrative, and against their own self-designation as Israeli Palestinians.




The blockade is a right of any nation to put upon an enemy entity. The Gaza Strip under Hamas is such. It seems that even Egypt thinks so, which is why they didn't cancel the blockade on their side.




It's funny you talk about civil liberties, while completely ignore the fact that you bash the only side of the conflict that actually respect civil liberties, and support the one that completely ignores them.

The thing is, in Israel a Palestinian judge sent a Jewish president to jail. And that sums up any claim or apartheid/racist oppressiveness etc..
I Googled "Israeli Palestinian" and there's no such thing.   If such a person did exist, it would be a person with dual citizenship.   Show me the examples referring to these people.   Let me see those Palestine passports accepted by Israel in Israel.   If you can't do that, then in my mind, there's no such thing.  It's just possessive rhetoric that matches your true political ambitions.

Whether a blockade is a "right" or not, it's an act of war.   That a tiny minority of Palestinians would take up arms against you to retaliate is the expected outcome, not a "terrorist" act.   If some foreign entity was cutting off trade to the US, it would use its military power and put a stop to that nonsense real quick.   We have to stoop down to double standards when we say that someone else doesn't have the rights that we do.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#20    Erikl

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 08:52 PM

Quote

I Googled "Israeli Palestinian" and there's no such thing.   If such a person did exist, it would be a person with dual citizenship.   Show me the examples referring to these people.   Let me see those Palestine passports accepted by Israel in Israel.   If you can't do that, then in my mind, there's no such thing.  It's just possessive rhetoric that matches your true political ambitions.

Wow. Really. I just quoted for you the wikipedia article that gives you a simple, plain definition of what is an Israeli Palestinian. And you simply ignore it and continue with your rants. Amazing. Nothing can penetrate your bubble.

As for duel citizenship - being that there is no Palestinian state (yet), there is no such citizenship. And if judging by citizenship, then I guess there are only about 3.5 million Palestinians worldwide, as all the Palestinians living in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Israel are not Palestinians at all, right? Tell that to them and their precious "right of return" for all their "refugees" :rolleyes:.

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#21    and then

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 10:39 PM

View PostErikl, on 07 May 2013 - 08:52 PM, said:

Wow. Really. I just quoted for you the wikipedia article that gives you a simple, plain definition of what is an Israeli Palestinian. And you simply ignore it and continue with your rants. Amazing. Nothing can penetrate your bubble.

As for duel citizenship - being that there is no Palestinian state (yet), there is no such citizenship. And if judging by citizenship, then I guess there are only about 3.5 million Palestinians worldwide, as all the Palestinians living in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Israel are not Palestinians at all, right? Tell that to them and their precious "right of return" for all their "refugees" :rolleyes:.
This.....  And it is why their supporters will never admit that the PA nor Hamas has EVER nor will ever utter the admission that Israel is a state for the JEWISH people - a homeland for the Jew - regardless it's size or scope.  To do so is to admit that the Palestinians will never be allowed to return.  Any Arab leader who ever does that will be as dead as Sadat or Rabin in no time.  They envision another Arab state in the M.E. to compliment all those others that are such prosperous beacons of freedom and tolerance  :w00t:

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#22    Yamato

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 12:04 AM

View PostErikl, on 07 May 2013 - 08:52 PM, said:

Wow. Really. I just quoted for you the wikipedia article that gives you a simple, plain definition of what is an Israeli Palestinian. And you simply ignore it and continue with your rants. Amazing. Nothing can penetrate your bubble.

As for duel citizenship - being that there is no Palestinian state (yet), there is no such citizenship. And if judging by citizenship, then I guess there are only about 3.5 million Palestinians worldwide, as all the Palestinians living in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Israel are not Palestinians at all, right? Tell that to them and their precious "right of return" for all their "refugees" :rolleyes:.
You provided a link about Arab citizens of Israel which is the appropriate name for who they are.   Your label doesn't exist; it's a figment of your imagination; a convenient and possessive rhetoric.  That you even insist on focusing on these people is symptomatic of your need to focus on ethnic groups.  It matters to you that they're Arab.  It's the people who are propagandizing the Arab vs. Jew dynamic that are responsible for the violence at this point.  Just like Ireland vs N. Ireland has nothing to do with religion, neither does this.   This is about money, power and resources, and politics being played by nationalistic bigots on one side and violent freedom fighters on the other.  The stain stains them all alike, but there is no dynamic, whether racial or ethnic or political that can excuse it.  Reassessing our foreign policy and reforming domestic centers of power in Israel and Palestine in this conflict are parts of the way forward.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#23    GoSC

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 05:00 PM

http://adalah.org/Pu...2012-Update.pdf

Adalah launches comprehensive online ‘Discriminatory Laws Database’ to monitor racist Israeli legislation

by Adam Horowitz on March 19, 2013



Quote

From Adalah: The Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel :

There are more than 50 Israeli laws that discriminate against Palestinian citizens of Israel in all areas of life, including their rights to political participation, access to land, education, state budget resources, and criminal procedures. Some of the laws also violate the rights of Palestinians living in the 1967 OPT and Palestinian refugees.

You can also see Adalah's Brief on Discriminatory Laws and Bills Since 2009.

This database collects text, analyses, and legal action for present and proposed discriminatory laws in Israel and the OPT. Please explore:

Here's an example of one entry:

"Nakba Law" - Amendment No. 40 to the Budgets Foundations Law

Name: "Nakba Law" - Amendment No. 40 to the Budgets Foundations Law

Enacted: 2011

Status: Active

Themes: Civil and Political Rights

Description: The “Nakba Law” authorizes the Finance Minister to reduce state funding or support to an institution if it holds an activity that rejects the existence of Israel as a “Jewish and democratic state” or commemorates “Israel’s Independence Day or the day on which the state was established as a day of mourning.”

Palestinians traditionally mark Israel’s official Independence Day as a national day of mourning and organize commemorative events. The law violates their rights, and restricts their freedom to express their opinion, and will cause substantial harm to cultural and educational institutions and further entrench discrimination. The law causes major harm to the principle of equality and the rights of Arab citizens to preserve their history and culture. The law deprives Arab citizens of their right to commemorate the Nabka, an integral part of their history.

On 4 May 2011, Adalah, ACRI, the parents of school children and school alumni filed a petition against the law to the Supreme Court, requesting that it find the Nakba Law unconstitutional. The Supreme Court rejected the petition in January 2012, ruling that the case was premature as the law had not been used against any specific institution.

http://mondoweiss.ne...egislation.html

Here is a factsheet on Israel's discriminatory laws against Palestinians living in Israel compiled by the Middle East Monitor: http://www.middleeas...g-in-israel.pdf

Q: Does anyone know how to cut & paste from PDFs? I am feeling like an idiot for this bit of computer illiteracy.

Edited by B Jenkins, 09 May 2013 - 05:03 PM.

Church raptured? Ephesians 3:9-11,21
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

#24    Yamato

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 07:18 PM

The non-Israeli Arabs are guilty of not moving over and letting Israel have its Jewish state.   The Israelis are guilty of enacting policies to define what that "Jewish state" means.  Among the numerous consequences of Zionist policy, another seems to be stealing the identify of Jews worldwide and redefining who they are - relative to a piece of land whose location is conveniently located in the Bible.   By adding the religious spin to their claim on the land, Zionists become able to duck behind the "you're anti-semitic!" defense they carry in droves.  It's a powerful weapon when one can change the subject of the conversation to the character of the person who dared speak critically of Israel.   You must defend your character before speaking with an ill-tongue against Israel!   It's clear from past debates that Zionists frequently attack the character of Israel's critic, a very personal and desperate act and yet still highly effective.

The deepest underlying difference in how we view this conflict is whether or not we respect the individual rights of ALL individuals.  800,000 kids in Gaza and never did a damned thing wrong.   With all due respect, but how dare you, Zionists?

I think that once we stick to our principles and don't carelessly insist on applying them to only one group of people, there can be agreement between sides in this conflict.   There can be agreement between myself and and then. Achieving universal rights would be a huge victory to both Palestinians and Israelis for the long term and I hope younger Zionists can see that and eventually stop the violence and force-control through political means, which is likely after their chickens come back to roost and they suffer economically and politically for it.

Plenty of Jews outside of Israel look at Israel and realize that it's doing what they were explicitly told not to do.   How good a Jew you are in Zionist circles has fallen on what one's views on Israel happen to be.   The nationalism and its national identity is more powerful than the religion and its scripture to the Zionists.   Ahmadinejad is reviled in the media because he brings Jews to a Holocaust Conference he hosted; Jews who happen to disagree with Zionist Israel.   Oh my goodness, what a shocking house of horrors.  That's how one becomes a "Holocaust denier" btw.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#25    Yamato

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 07:26 PM

Based on B Jenkins' recent input, I have to admit there are signs of apartheid within the state of Israel too.   Surprise surprise.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#26    GoSC

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 09:31 PM

View PostErikl, on 07 May 2013 - 08:52 PM, said:

Wow. Really. I just quoted for you the wikipedia article that gives you a simple, plain definition of what is an Israeli Palestinian. And you simply ignore it and continue with your rants. Amazing. Nothing can penetrate your bubble.

As for duel citizenship - being that there is no Palestinian state (yet), there is no such citizenship. And if judging by citizenship, then I guess there are only about 3.5 million Palestinians worldwide, as all the Palestinians living in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Israel are not Palestinians at all, right? Tell that to them and their precious "right of return" for all their "refugees" :rolleyes:.

No there is 5 million refugees, these are dispossessed peoples of a dispossessed land that live in horrid conditions in refugees CAMPS.

Israel don't want them because Israel knows they will have to bend and fold to Palestinian interests and Palestinian politics. The Zionists maintain majority with iron fist policies and marginalizes the Arab Israelis.

Church raptured? Ephesians 3:9-11,21
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

#27    and then

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:35 AM

View PostB Jenkins, on 09 May 2013 - 09:31 PM, said:

No there is 5 million refugees, these are dispossessed peoples of a dispossessed land that live in horrid conditions in refugees CAMPS.

Israel don't want them because Israel knows they will have to bend and fold to Palestinian interests and Palestinian politics. The Zionists maintain majority with iron fist policies and marginalizes the Arab Israelis.
Wow, you actually stumbled over the truth.  BJ if Israel is a state/homeland for the Jews - and it is - then how could it absorb 5 million refugees who hate everything about it and still remain a state for the Jews?  I never watch your spamming attempts so spare me any more lessons please and just answer the question - please?

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#28    GoSC

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:40 AM

View Postand then, on 10 May 2013 - 12:35 AM, said:

Wow, you actually stumbled over the truth.  BJ if Israel is a state/homeland for the Jews - and it is - then how could it absorb 5 million refugees who hate everything about it and still remain a state for the Jews?  I never watch your spamming attempts so spare me any more lessons please and just answer the question - please?


Spamming attempts? No, what you are saying is you're going to be selective and indifferent.

Did you miss this post? http://www.unexplain...3

Additionally, the results of two recent studies support a feasible right of return for the Palestinians.

First, 92% of Israelis live in urban areas, 8% of Israelis live in rural areas.

Second, 78% of Israelis live on 15% of Israeli land c.f. 22% of Israelis live on 85% of Israeli land.

Church raptured? Ephesians 3:9-11,21
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

#29    and then

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 03:16 AM

View PostB Jenkins, on 10 May 2013 - 01:40 AM, said:

Spamming attempts? No, what you are saying is you're going to be selective and indifferent.

Did you miss this post? http://www.unexplain...3

Additionally, the results of two recent studies support a feasible right of return for the Palestinians.

First, 92% of Israelis live in urban areas, 8% of Israelis live in rural areas.

Second, 78% of Israelis live on 15% of Israeli land c.f. 22% of Israelis live on 85% of Israeli land.
I fail to see how the location of the citizens of the state could change the dynamic that would occur just by those 5 million BECOMING citizens of the state.  Would the right to vote or be MK's be nullified if they were rural vs urban dwellers?  The point is that the essential nature of the state would be changed completely and that is never going to be acceptable.  Israel is never going to become the 23rd Arab state.

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#30    GoSC

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 09:55 AM

View Postand then, on 10 May 2013 - 03:16 AM, said:

I fail to see how the location of the citizens of the state could change the dynamic that would occur just by those 5 million BECOMING citizens of the state.  Would the right to vote or be MK's be nullified if they were rural vs urban dwellers?  The point is that the essential nature of the state would be changed completely and that is never going to be acceptable.  Israel is never going to become the 23rd Arab state.

The Bible can be problematic if one reads it too literally. For instance:

16 I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth, so that if anyone can number the dust of the earth, then your descendants can also be numbered. Genesis 13:16

5 And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” Genesis 15:5

In 1939, it is estimated that there were 18 million Jews worldwide. In 1945,  it is estimated that there were 12 million Jews worldwide. In 2012, it is estimated there were roughly 14 million Jews worldwide. Roughly 50% live in the United States, and 50% live in Israel.

By comparision, Arabs make up 5% of the world population of 7 billion at 367.4 million.

Yet...

18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying,

“To your descendants I have given this land,
From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates: Genesis 15:18

How is a population so small as 14 million going to possess all that land? How is a population so small that has only grown by 2 million since 1945?

Something is fishy here because the math and the promises made to Abraham simply does not add up.

A mere 14 million souls are going to possess the land from the river of Egypt to the river Euphrates? Puh, do I look stupid to you?

But the David Kingdom was the closest Israel would ever achieve this back in 1000-926 BCE. So I guess, fellow Bible readers, one can surmise the promise of Abraham was fulfilled through King David and it lasted roughly 74 years.

Church raptured? Ephesians 3:9-11,21
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.




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