4101 replies to this topic

[The Puzzler]

I don't think Scotland was so named because of anything white. But that white came from alba/altar because ridges/altars touched the clouds. This also transferred to alt=high.

The term first appears in classical texts as Ἀλβίων or Ἀλουΐων (in Ptolemy's writings), later as Albion in Latin documents. Historically, the term refers to Britain as a whole and is ultimately based on the Indo-European root for "white".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alba


Indo-European root word for white - alba...where???
white O.E. hwit, from P.Gmc. *khwitaz (cf. O.S., O.Fris. hwit, O.N. hvitr, Du. wit, O.H.G. hwiz, Ger. weiß, Goth. hveits), from PIE *kwintos/*kwindos "bright" (cf. Skt. svetah "white;" O.C.S. sviteti "to shine," svetu "light;" Lith. sviesti "to shine," svaityti "to brighten"). http://www.etymonlin....php?term=white

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 15 October 2012 - 12:25 AM, said:

You better pick 3 yourself you want to comment on.

No, I think they are all weak.
A theory is as good as its best arguments.
A collection of many weak arguments don't make a good theory.

Besides, in the course of this thread I have refuted all of them already and as you very well know I am not here just to spend time or be a high-quantity poster.

Or do you think all of the arguments on your list are of the same quality?

Come on, make it more easy for newcomers.
What are your three best reasons to believe OLB is a hoax?

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 15 October 2012 - 04:58 AM, said:

Alba Longa = long altar?. A mountain ridge where sacrifices were held to Jupiter. The t went to b and d in many words. Note lêt in OLB became lad-en (lead, weight, meaning loaded up, heavy). I think this allows for alba to derive from altar.

On the summit was the sanctuary of Jupiter Latiaris, in which the consuls celebrated the Feriae Latinae, and several generals celebrated victories here when they were not accorded regular triumphs in Rome. The temple has not survived, but the Via Triumphalis leading up to it may still be seen.
http://en.wikipedia....iki/Alban_Hills

Old Frisian
Noun

altāre m. and n.

• altar

Swedish
Noun
altare n.

• altar (flat-topped structure used for religious rites)

As a sideline but interesting: Volcanic activity under king Tullus Hostilius on the site was reported by Livy in his book of Roman history: "...there had been a shower of stones on the Alban Mount...".
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Monte_Cavo

He placed it at the foot of the Alban Mount and said that it took its name from being extended along a ridge
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Alba_Longa



If the Fryans were in Italy, they imo, were quite possibly the people of Latium.

I've never been to Scotland but it appears on maps to be made up of many long ridges in the North especially.

So you think this is wrong:

Livy said of Alba Longa that it was founded by Ascanius to relieve crowding at Lavinium. He placed it at the foot of the Alban Mount and said that it took its name from being extended along a ridge. Dionysius of Halicarnassus repeated the story, but added that Ascanius, following an oracle given to his father, collected other Latin populations as well. Noting that alba means "white" (and longa "long") he translated the name "long white town." Dionysius placed the town between the Alban Mount and the Alban Lake, thus beginning a long controversy about its location.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Alba_Longa

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 15 October 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

No, I think they are all weak.
A theory is as good as its best arguments.
A collection of many weak arguments don't make a good theory.

Besides, in the course of this thread I have refuted all of them already and as you very well know I am not here just to spend time or be a high-quantity poster.

Or do you think all of the arguments on your list are of the same quality?

Come on, make it more easy for newcomers.
What are your three best reasons to believe OLB is a hoax?

You have tried to refute them, yes.

But you wanted a summary, and this is it.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 14 October 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

and where is The Mule now? I see it as people thinking they have missed the conversation and don't feel like they can add anything, once it's been pointed out it's already been discussed. But anyone is free to do that of course.

Then you don't get my point:

Of course anyone is free to add anything they like. But wouldn't it be great if someone adds something new? A new insight, a new find? Or do you like to rekindle old discussions again, making this thread (= part 1 + 2) one of the true internet monsters?

Let's say someone starts about the Vikings in relation to the OLB, like 'Hey, did you know that...." , and so on. Most probably I will add links to posts and pages of this thread and the archived thread.

Or.... we could start all over again, and make this part 2 a copy of part 1.

[Otharus]

Van Gorp, on 14 October 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

From "Kelten En De Nederlanden Van Prehistorie Tot Heden", door Lauran Toorians. Published by Peeters, Bondgenoten Laan 153, Leuven.
... shop is the one with the low windows.

Yes that is a beautiful shop. I will have a look.
http://www.peeters-l...erz.asp?nr=6662

Quote

Secondly it is generally known that in Greek/Roman/Catholic time, original scriptures that did exist but contradicted the Catholic and dominating world view, were burned/corrupted on large scale.
[...]
I think the only reason why he didn't is the time where his (and Becanus' contemporaries) work is published: better not challenge Catholic/Hebrew predominating world view.
[...]
It is rather curious that we can explain Latin/Hebrew words with our own language better than they can with theirs.

Krek!
(correct, or: I agree!)

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 15 October 2012 - 06:41 AM, said:

So you think this is wrong:

Livy said of Alba Longa that it was founded by Ascanius to relieve crowding at Lavinium. He placed it at the foot of the Alban Mount and said that it took its name from being extended along a ridge. Dionysius of Halicarnassus repeated the story, but added that Ascanius, following an oracle given to his father, collected other Latin populations as well. Noting that alba means "white" (and longa "long") he translated the name "long white town." Dionysius placed the town between the Alban Mount and the Alban Lake, thus beginning a long controversy about its location.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Alba_Longa

It's a name given when alba had 'become' a meaning for white, but I don't think it's what it really means, as named by those who named it.
Find this alba as white in some kind of etymology then.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 15 October 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

No, I think they are all weak.

Well, what about this one, about your, Puzzler's and Van Gorp's favorite 'hobby':

"- It has been said many times in this thread that linguistics is not an exact science, meaning: we all can have a shot at it. Heh, I agree, so why use it to prove the OLB? It won't prove anything. It's mere play with words."


I have been busy trying to find some sort of archeological proof, but there's not really anything.

Yep, Minoans showing up in the German Bight, even Minoan characters on amber seals. Minoan inscriptions on a rock in Scandinavia.... but nothing the other way round as proof of ancient Frisians/Fryans showing up in Crete and so on.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 15 October 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:

It's a name given when alba had 'become' a meaning for white, but I don't think it's what it really means, as named by those who named it.
Find this alba as white in some kind of etymology then.

The Albans eventually moved to Rome together with the famous Julii family (as you can read on those Wiki pages). I have little doubt they must have spoken Latin, or whatever it was called back then.

+++

EDIT:

alb (n.)
late O.E. albe, from L.L. alba (in tunica alba or vestis alba "white vestment"), fem. of albus "white," from PIE root *albho- "white" (cf. Gk. alphos "white leprosy," alphiton "barley meal;" O.H.G. albiz, O.E. elfet "swan," lit. "the white bird;" O.C.S., Rus. lebedi, Pol. łabędź "swan;" Hittite alpash "cloud").

http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none


The Alps:

The original meaning may be from "white" (in reference to the permanent snow. The term may be common to Italo-Celtic, because the Celtic languages have terms for high mountains derived from alp. German Alpen is the accusative in origin, but was made the nominative in Modern German, whence also Alm.

Another theory is that in Latin Alpes is a name of non-Indo-European origin (which is common for prominent mountains and mountain ranges in the Mediterranean region). According to the Old English Dictionary, the Latin Alpes might possibly derive from a pre-Indo-European word *alb "hill", with Albania being a related derivation. Interestingly, Albania (which is a foreign name for modern Albanians) has been used as a name for a number of mountainous areas across Europe. In Roman times, Albania was a name for the eastern Caucasus, while in the English language Albania (or Albany) was occasionally used as a name for Scotland.

http://en.wikipedia..../Alps#Etymology

.

Edited by Abramelin, 15 October 2012 - 07:41 AM.

[NO-ID-EA]

Abramelin, on 15 October 2012 - 12:24 AM, said:

Weclome to UM, NO-ID-EA.

Apparently you know me from the Historum site, but I don't know who you are (= 'no idea', lol. Ib_issi, maybe??)...

Anyway, I found the book online:

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

Oh, and it's not 'my' thread, the admins split the thread just before that first post of mine here. The rest is now called Part -1-, as you can see in my signature.

==

Finding connections between cultures based on nothing more than similarities in languages, names, words is always risky.

By that alone you could equate the Druids with Dravidians...


.

Ha...Ha... Your guess was as good as mine when you visited Historum ..Vrank,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

The Google copy of Celtic Druids misses out all the good stuff , you really need the villanova.edu copy..............Some of his 2nd book Anacalypsis is good , but his theories of how different nations took up writting , in order to conceal their genesis , not to just record it , is mostly in Celtic Druids.

Druids and Dravids is a possibility for me , as is the Drus .and how about King David while we are at it  ?.......twice in his boook Higgins calls the Fir-bolg , the Fri-bolg , not sure if it was a typo though. .......Some bits on the god IAO or AIO , which i think is coded A-TEN ??

Edited by NO-ID-EA, 15 October 2012 - 07:20 AM.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 15 October 2012 - 06:42 AM, said:

But you wanted a summary, and this is it.

If I pick three and refute  them, you will say "but what about the other arguments?".

In the end I will be refuting all of them again.

This is not about entertaining each other, but to make it easier for newcomers catching up on the discussion.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 15 October 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

The Albans eventually moved to Rome together with the famous Julii family (as you can read on those Wiki pages). I have little doubt they must have spoken Latin, or whatever it was called back then.

+++

EDIT:

alb (n.)
late O.E. albe, from L.L. alba (in tunica alba or vestis alba "white vestment"), fem. of albus "white," from PIE root *albho- "white" (cf. Gk. alphos "white leprosy," alphiton "barley meal;" O.H.G. albiz, O.E. elfet "swan," lit. "the white bird;" O.C.S., Rus. lebedi, Pol. łabędź "swan;" Hittite alpash "cloud").

http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none

.

Hittite alpash - cloud, is the oldest form there, like I said:

"But that white came from alba/altar because ridges/altars touched the clouds."

[The Puzzler]

Gk alphos - should relate to alpha - meaning highest, top most - as the clouds were - alb/alt mean high because the clouds were high and they were white so this form spread to 'white' - and altars were at 'high places' too, so imo, altars were originally mountain ridges that reached into the sky, touching the clouds. This concept is ancient, with the mountain ridge actually holding UP the sky and the clouds, hence when it collapsed, the sky fell down.

[Abramelin]

NO-ID-EA, on 15 October 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

Ha...Ha... Your guess was as good as mine when you visited Historum ..Vrank,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

The Google copy of Celtic Druids misses out all the good stuff , you really need the villanova.edu copy..............Some of his 2nd book Anacalypsis is good , but his theories of how different nations took up writting , in order to conceal their genesis , not to just record it , is mostly in Celtic Druids.

Druids and Dravids is a possibility for me , as is the Drus .and how about King David while we are at it  ?.......twice in his boook Higgins calls the Fir-bolg , the Fri-bolg , not sure if it was a typo though. .......Some bits on the god IAO or AIO , which i think is coded A-TEN ??

Heh, "your guess is as good as mine"... OK, but I will call you "No" here, lol. (like in Dr. No, and I think it was from the "Blake & Mortimer" comic. And yes, also from the James Bond movies).

==

You should not forget that in medieval times people did their utmost best to 'prove' descendance of (one of the twelve) Hebrew tribes.

==

The spelling of the tribe you mentioned is "Fir Bolg", and "fir" stands for 'man, people' in both Celtic and Germanic.

Btw, in ancient Ireland the Frisians were known as the "Fresen":

Now, just to show you and the others what I meant, enter "Fresen" in the search tool, top-right (and click the magnifying glass - this topic).

.

Edited by Abramelin, 15 October 2012 - 07:55 AM.

[The Puzzler]

I don't think the people of Latium were speaking Hittite - until the Romans came in, then this language overtook most of the original Latium language (pre-archaic Latin), so there should be a language in Latium that precedes Roman, with Roman Late Latin being a straight connection to Hittite IE. Hittites may have spoken a form of Fryan that head down that south east direction, changing a bit, so the core words of Hittite may lie in Fryan also. But Latium people would not have spoken the same language as Hittites imo.

Edited by The Puzzler, 15 October 2012 - 08:00 AM.