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Isn't a "free" internet wonderful?


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#61    Timonthy

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 11:51 AM

View Postpantodragon, on 04 April 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

You're missing the right way to deal with things: if you refuse to buy a bad product then the manufacturers will have to pull their socks up.  It's about standing up on your hind legs and having some self-respect, not letting them dump any old **** on you that they choose, then make you pay for it to boot.
Oh well all good then: I only buy good, high quality products. :tsu:

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#62    Frank Merton

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 12:16 PM

The seller always knows what they are selling better than you do; its another version of the con-artist knows the trick.  No matter how savvy we think we are, we are always at a disadvantage.  Now with the internet people who allow personal identification to become common currency will be at a worse disadvantage.


#63    pantodragon

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 01:58 PM

View Postealdwita, on 08 April 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

Praise the Lord for he is merciful! Posted Image

Your Lord maybe, but mine is not.  Red rag to a bull.......  New wall of text coming up!   :devil:

You're a man of few words yourself.  I suppose that might be because you're a farmer and more accustomed to tilling and fertilising the soil than tilling and fertilising your mind.  From what I have seen of farming, I have to admit, it's a tough job: long hours etc, so you really won't have much time for developing the mind.

I attended a bridge club for a while, and two of the members were farmers.  They were also men of few words.  I had great difficulty making conversation with them.  One week, however, I hit the jackpot.  I asked them about their recent injuries fr9om handling their animals.  Boy, but that opened the flood gates, I can tell you.  From then on, whenever we played at the same table, it was all I could do to get them to play bridge instead of talking about the latest crack on the shin from the hoof of a bull.

Another interesting person at the bridge club..................oops!  Lucky you, my library internet session has just run o0ut of time.  But don't worry --- I'll be back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


#64    Yes_Man

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 05:06 PM

So thats why, you dont have your own computer?


#65    Paranoid Android

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 08:01 AM

View Postpantodragon, on 11 April 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

...my library internet session has just run o0ut of time.  But don't worry --- I'll be back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Is this why you thought the internet was "free"?  Most libraries offer free internet, but the library still pays a host to offer you internet as a community service.  Just as if you had internet at home you'd pay a provider to put internet in your home.  Perhaps at some point in the future a library may start charging a nominal fee to use the internet, but that may be just to cover their own costs.  The internet simply is not free.

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#66    pitchp

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 09:02 AM

View Postpantodragon, on 02 March 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

One of the selling points of the internet is that it is “free” and, furthermore, the truth of this is a generally held belief.  (This is not actually the case; internet costs are there, but they are hidden and difficult to trace.  However, for the purposes of this post, let’s take the general view that the internet is, to all intents and purposes, free.)

I am going to make a prophesy:  the internet will not be “free” for much longer i.e. users will be charged for using it.

How do I arrive at this conclusion?  By experience.

Some readers will remember the time when one dealt with one’s insurance companies, utility companies etc, by snail mail.  When business decided it wanted customers to abandon snail mail for contact by telephone, among other encouragements provided was free contact telephone numbers (0800 numbers in the UK).  As business habituated us to using the telephone, it set about removing any avenue of retreat for customers reluctant to use the phone and once this had been achieved, it introduced customer telephone charges.  Now, not only does one pay for a once “free” telephone service, but when one contacts a utility or insurance company the call has been considerably lengthened by the inclusion of company advertising and the automation of operator services etc – all at additional cost to you.

So, that’s how business works.   When it decides to change customer habits it first offers a “free” alternative.  As customers increasingly make use of use this new, “free” alternative, business gradually removes any avenue of retreat.  Once the new practice is firmly established, business then slaps on hefty charges which the customer is then forced to pay.

This is exactly what is happening with the internet at the moment.  Business is currently going about forcing customers to use the internet, so it persuades us by offering a “free”, “more convenient” alternative to the phone etc.   Now it is becoming increasingly difficult to use anything but the internet i.e. avenues of retreat are gradually being removed.  It will not be long, therefore, before we are paying up-front charges to use the internet.


Oh, and while I’m about it, another internet prophesy….

Another selling point for the internet is that it brings down barriers.  For example, people can publish their writing, music etc for free i.e. without having to go through a publisher.  And, indeed, some people have attracted the attention of publishers/agents and forged successful careers for themselves by self-publishing on sites such as YouTube.  What people fail to realise, however, is that this is a trap.  It will not be long before publishers will not touch an author BEFORE they have become a success on the internet.  That way the risk to the publisher is reduced to a minimum and, moreover, most of the publisher’s work is passed on to the author.  So, less work for the publisher, fewer risks, and more profits.

Yes soon enough the governments are going to get together, and rub their greedy little hands, and create some form of control over the internet. And yes that will be included as another form of tax. They are already starting to do this! Damn the politicians they are worse than lawyers

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#67    Frank Merton

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 09:18 AM

One can hope that technologies that keep this from happening develop at least as fast as technologies that permit control.


#68    pantodragon

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 02:23 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 13 April 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

Is this why you thought the internet was "free"?  Most libraries offer free internet, but the library still pays a host to offer you internet as a community service.  Just as if you had internet at home you'd pay a provider to put internet in your home.  Perhaps at some point in the future a library may start charging a nominal fee to use the internet, but that may be just to cover their own costs.  The internet simply is not free.

If you have read the OP, then I was arguing that the internet is not free.  As to the library internet service, one pays for thjis through one's taxes.  As you said, it is not free.

View PostThe New Richard Nixon, on 11 April 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

So thats why, you dont have your own computer?

I have my own compuer, I don't have home internet access.


#69    Heaven Is A Halfpipe

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 02:34 PM

View Postpantodragon, on 02 March 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

One of the selling points of the internet is that it is “free” and, furthermore, the truth of this is a generally held belief.  (This is not actually the case; internet costs are there, but they are hidden and difficult to trace.  However, for the purposes of this post, let’s take the general view that the internet is, to all intents and purposes, free.)

I am going to make a prophesy:  the internet will not be “free” for much longer i.e. users will be charged for using it.

How do I arrive at this conclusion?  By experience.

Some readers will remember the time when one dealt with one’s insurance companies, utility companies etc, by snail mail.  When business decided it wanted customers to abandon snail mail for contact by telephone, among other encouragements provided was free contact telephone numbers (0800 numbers in the UK).  As business habituated us to using the telephone, it set about removing any avenue of retreat for customers reluctant to use the phone and once this had been achieved, it introduced customer telephone charges.  Now, not only does one pay for a once “free” telephone service, but when one contacts a utility or insurance company the call has been considerably lengthened by the inclusion of company advertising and the automation of operator services etc – all at additional cost to you.

So, that’s how business works.   When it decides to change customer habits it first offers a “free” alternative.  As customers increasingly make use of use this new, “free” alternative, business gradually removes any avenue of retreat.  Once the new practice is firmly established, business then slaps on hefty charges which the customer is then forced to pay.

This is exactly what is happening with the internet at the moment.  Business is currently going about forcing customers to use the internet, so it persuades us by offering a “free”, “more convenient” alternative to the phone etc.   Now it is becoming increasingly difficult to use anything but the internet i.e. avenues of retreat are gradually being removed.  It will not be long, therefore, before we are paying up-front charges to use the internet.


Oh, and while I’m about it, another internet prophesy….

Another selling point for the internet is that it brings down barriers.  For example, people can publish their writing, music etc for free i.e. without having to go through a publisher.  And, indeed, some people have attracted the attention of publishers/agents and forged successful careers for themselves by self-publishing on sites such as YouTube.  What people fail to realise, however, is that this is a trap. It will not be long before publishers will not touch an author BEFORE they have become a success on the internet.  That way the risk to the publisher is reduced to a minimum and, moreover, most of the publisher’s work is passed on to the author.  So, less work for the publisher, fewer risks, and more profits.

I think this is already the case actually, at least in music. If you don't have an online following, they won't give you a second look. I don't really see that as a bad thing, though. The only real difference from the past is that record companies etc would expect a following from you doing gigs and whatnot. It's actually much easier to get an online following because all it takes is a second for somebody to like your YouTube video or subscribe, follow you on Twitter etc whereas getting people to sign up to your mail lists, buy CDs etc on the day at gigs is a lot harder. So I'd say at least for the music industry, yeah you have to work to get noticed but it's easier than it used to be.

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#70    Frank Merton

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 02:40 PM

And I thought all that was needed was talent.


#71    Timonthy

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 05:12 AM

View PostHeaven Is A Halfpipe, on 13 April 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

I think this is already the case actually, at least in music. If you don't have an online following, they won't give you a second look. I don't really see that as a bad thing, though. The only real difference from the past is that record companies etc would expect a following from you doing gigs and whatnot. It's actually much easier to get an online following because all it takes is a second for somebody to like your YouTube video or subscribe, follow you on Twitter etc whereas getting people to sign up to your mail lists, buy CDs etc on the day at gigs is a lot harder. So I'd say at least for the music industry, yeah you have to work to get noticed but it's easier than it used to be.
I agree. It's good because now any artist can get exposure. The issue is, anyone incapable of creating something appealing can also get exposure.

Overall it's a good thing, but as we see, all mediums become saturated. It does go both ways, someone who previously may have been noticed doing a gig with an 'individual' or 'indy' sound would now be overlooked because there are similar sounds all over the internet. While, for example; Rebecca black get's famous for 'Friday' - labeled one of the worst songs ever!

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#72    Paranoid Android

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 05:26 PM

View Postpantodragon, on 13 April 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

If you have read the OP, then I was arguing that the internet is not free.  As to the library internet service, one pays for thjis through one's taxes.  As you said, it is not free.
Yes, you said that internet fees were "hidden and difficult to trace".  The $40 monthly fee on my Credit Card tells me that it's not hidden and quite easy to trace.  Every time I use my mobile devices to log on to McDonalds wi-fi, I'm not being charged for it, but I am paying money for my McValue Meal.  The free wi-fi is just a selling point to get me through the doors to give them my money.  I understand these things.  That's consumerism, I know how it works and I'm happy with that.  What I'm not agreeing with you on is the suggestions you made earlier in the thread, which we've already argued ad nauseum (your argument that emails are going to start costing us money, on that I cannot agree).

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#73    Frank Merton

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 05:35 PM

I don't know that businesses ever do things out of the goodness of their heart or for the benefit of society.  Even their charitable gifts are designed with PR in mind.  They will always charge the most the market will bear, even if people are dying, again the only exception having to do with PR.

Public corporations really don't have any choice; there is always some lawyer who will file suit if they behave in a way not in the shareholders' greediest interest.  Also, companies have to compete, and generosity in pricing or marketing practices is inefficient and hence leads to competitive disadvantage and eventual disappearance.


#74    pantodragon

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 02:31 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 15 April 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

I don't know that businesses ever do things out of the goodness of their heart or for the benefit of society.  Even their charitable gifts are designed with PR in mind.  They will always charge the most the market will bear, even if people are dying, again the only exception having to do with PR.

Public corporations really don't have any choice; there is always some lawyer who will file suit if they behave in a way not in the shareholders' greediest interest.  Also, companies have to compete, and generosity in pricing or marketing practices is inefficient and hence leads to competitive disadvantage and eventual disappearance.

I am often accused of seeing everything very black, of having a very negative view of life --- you have written a few sentences in a very matter-of-fact tone of voice and I wonder if you, or anyone who reads this, feels the hair standing up on their heads at the nightmare of a world you have described?


#75    Render

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 08:36 PM

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