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Why Time Never Runs Backward


Still Waters

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We can't avoid the passing of time, even at the DMV, where time seems to come to a standstill. And daylight savings notwithstanding, time always ticks forward. But why not backward? Why do we remember the past and not the future? For a group of physicists, the answers to these deep and complex questions may arise from a familiar source: gravity.

http://www.wired.com...1/time-gravity/

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It could be moving backwards somewhere right now and we don't even know it...

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If you have a bunch of particles buzzing around and the combined gravity of all the particles pulls them together, it seems to me the particles may or may not disperse. They may clump together and stay clumped.

Wouldn't this depend on the mass of the particles and their velocity? What are these particles anyway? If the four Forces were united at the Big Bang, what are the properties of this unified force? Would the gravitational force still behave as gravity before the four Forces separated?

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It's not about gravity. Although the article is interesting, I believe these physicist have it wrong. Gravity is not a cause, it's a symptom of consciousness that we do not yet fully understand because our senses cannot measure it. The future doesn't exist. The past doesn't exist. All we have is the instant of now. We can't really prove that the future or past exists, can we?

Quantum physics indicates that all possibilities exist which indicates time is an illusion caused by consciousness. Consciousness causes possibilities to be fixed in the instant (now) which is caused by our three dimensions of space being inflated during the big bang. There are other dimensions but these dimensions did not inflate after the big bang and remain all around us on the Planck Scale.

It's the extreme size difference between these dimensions that causes the wave function to collapse when observed by consciousness. The wave function collapse causes matter to be fixed in the instant or now when observed by consciousness. This creates the illusion of a future and the illusion of the past which gives us the illusion of time.

Without consciousness, there is no illusion of time. All living things possess some degree of consciousness or these living things cannot be alive. However, not all living things have the ability to observe like a human and its the ability to observe that sets higher beings apart from the rest. This gives all living things with the ability to observe the ability to experience the illusion of time separately and differently.

Comments?

Edited by geonerd
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It's not about gravity. Although the article is interesting, I believe these physicist have it wrong. Gravity is not a cause, it's a symptom of consciousness that we do not yet fully understand because our senses cannot measure it. The future doesn't exist. The past doesn't exist. All we have is the instant of now. We can't really prove that the future or past exists, can we?

Quantum physics indicates that all possibilities exist which indicates time is an illusion caused by consciousness. Consciousness causes possibilities to be fixed in the instant (now) which is caused by our three dimensions of space being inflated during the big bang. There are other dimensions but these dimensions did not inflate after the big bang and remain all around us on the Planck Scale.

It's the extreme size difference between these dimensions that causes the wave function to collapse when observed by consciousness. The wave function collapse causes matter to be fixed in the instant or now when observed by consciousness. This creates the illusion of a future and the illusion of the past which gives us the illusion of time.

Without consciousness, there is no illusion of time. All living things possess some degree of consciousness or these living things cannot be alive. However, not all living things have the ability to observe like a human and its the ability to observe that sets higher beings apart from the rest. This gives all living things with the ability to observe the ability to experience the illusion of time separately and differently.

Comments?

Nope. The whole "consciousness creates reality" thing is a misreading of quantum theory. It is not a conscious observer who causes "possibilities to be fixed", it's measurement. There is simply no evidence to support what you're saying.

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This is aninteresting study. For those who might be interested, there is a free pre-print of the article available on arXiv.org.

.

If you have a bunch of particles buzzing around and the combined gravity of all the particles pulls them together, it seems to me the particles may or may not disperse. They may clump together and stay clumped.

They can't stay clumped together for an arbitrary length of time, due to the Newtonian rules of conservation of energy and conservation of momentum.

Since `conservation of momentum'' is predicated on time-invariance of the system, I wonder if the authors are too limited in their scope of investigation...

Never-the-less, the argument of the authors is that our percieved ``arrow of time'' is due not to entropy (a thermodynamic quantity which depends on the boundaries of the system), but to complexity (a scale-invariant measure).

Complexity is not a conserved quantity - it can freely increase or decrease depending on the dynamics of the system - and consequently (if the author's theory is true), our percieved arrow of time is only a result of living during a ``complexity-increasing'' phase of the Universe's lifecycle.

If the four Forces were united at the Big Bang, what are the properties of this unified force? Would the gravitational force still behave as gravity before the four Forces separated?

That is one of the admitted shortcomings of the study - it only really pertains to Newtonian gravity applied to discrete particle systems. That is arguably an acceptable approximation to apply to the large-scale Universe as it exists NOW, but it might not be applicable to the early Universe.

It's the extreme size difference between these dimensions that causes the wave function to collapse when observed by consciousness. The wave function collapse causes matter to be fixed in the instant or now when observed by consciousness. This creates the illusion of a future and the illusion of the past which gives us the illusion of time.

Just to add to what Emma_Acid said, conciousness is demonstrably not the thing that causes wave function collapse.

Double-slit experiments in which the photon detector output at the two slits is immediately discarded and never, ever seen by human observers still show the same interference patterns (or lack thereof) on the screen as the systems in which human observers actively monitor (or don't monitor) the photons passing through the two slits.

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We can't avoid the passing of time, even at the DMV, where time seems to come to a standstill. And daylight savings notwithstanding, time always ticks forward. But why not backward? Why do we remember the past and not the future? For a group of physicists, the answers to these deep and complex questions may arise from a familiar source: gravity.

http://www.wired.com...1/time-gravity/

I belong to the school where the process of having thoughts creates time:

A thought has a before, now and after which creates past, present and future.

Thoughts occurring one after the other create the flow of time.

Multiple thoughts are relative to each other as they occupy different points in a timeline.

So to make time run backwards you have to start with a thought and then have a new thought before it. I don't know how you would achieve that.

Edited by RabidMongoose
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Just to add to what Emma_Acid said, conciousness is demonstrably not the thing that causes wave function collapse.

Phew! I always worry about commenting on this sort of thing.

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It's not about gravity.

It is. It's like they said in the article. Time cannot exist separately from space, that's why we call it a timespace continuum or just timespace. Sufficient amount of gravity can bend timespace, to a point where time flows have been altered. Theoretical framework for timespace travel ? Perphaps but only one-way.

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It is. It's like they said in the article. Time cannot exist separately from space, that's why we call it a timespace continuum or just timespace. Sufficient amount of gravity can bend timespace, to a point where time flows have been altered. Theoretical framework for timespace travel ? Perphaps but only one-way.

I'm going to criticise this stance.

During the night I have often half woken up and found no sense of depth or location outside myself while lying there on the verge of sleep. While its hard to explain its a form of feeling and thinking where everything is right up against you. I suspect other people here will know what I'm trying to communicate. I have also experienced a state of mind where I lost the present. Everything happening around me was experienced as if it was in the past if that makes sense. I don't accept that time and space are independent from the mind.

When people are working or exercising they often experience a state of mind called 'in the flow' where its like a force takes over and carries them onwards. I took something a while back (medication) that listed one of the side effects as altered perceptions. It changed how I see gravity. I realise now gravity is this 'in the flow' originating from the mind. In fact I realised there is no independent movement, forces or change outside the mind as the 'in the flow' is what alters or causes everything. An intention appears in the mind, the 'in the flow' changes the external environment to match the intentions (be it moving an arm or whatever), we then fall for the illusion.

Although we naturally order our thoughts along one arrow of time the question for me is can we order them differently? If we unpin ourselves from the progression of events in reality by mediating can we do reverse order thinking then? If we then pin ourselves to this new arrow of time will the 'in the flow' then make reality run backwards?

Edited by RabidMongoose
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This is aninteresting study. For those who might be interested, there is a free pre-print of the article available on arXiv.org.

.

They can't stay clumped together for an arbitrary length of time, due to the Newtonian rules of conservation of energy and conservation of momentum.

Since `conservation of momentum'' is predicated on time-invariance of the system, I wonder if the authors are too limited in their scope of investigation...

Never-the-less, the argument of the authors is that our percieved ``arrow of time'' is due not to entropy (a thermodynamic quantity which depends on the boundaries of the system), but to complexity (a scale-invariant measure).

Complexity is not a conserved quantity - it can freely increase or decrease depending on the dynamics of the system - and consequently (if the author's theory is true), our percieved arrow of time is only a result of living during a ``complexity-increasing'' phase of the Universe's lifecycle.

That is one of the admitted shortcomings of the study - it only really pertains to Newtonian gravity applied to discrete particle systems. That is arguably an acceptable approximation to apply to the large-scale Universe as it exists NOW, but it might not be applicable to the early Universe.

Just to add to what Emma_Acid said, conciousness is demonstrably not the thing that causes wave function collapse.

Double-slit experiments in which the photon detector output at the two slits is immediately discarded and never, ever seen by human observers still show the same interference patterns (or lack thereof) on the screen as the systems in which human observers actively monitor (or don't monitor) the photons passing through the two slits.

Then the wave function should always be collapsed but it isn't.

If you are right, then what causes precognitive abilities?

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-11/precognition-research-shows-human-mind-can-perceive-future

What about NDE experiences.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/09/health/belgium-near-death-experiences/

What about what Hameroff's work concludes with microtubules at the Center for Consciousness Studies and University of AZ. He in not a quack. He is an expert in consciousness.

Most likely much more than anybody on this website.

http://www.consciousness.arizona.edu

You think consciousness is not involved because consciousness isn't understood.

35 years ago I got into a debate with my physics teacher about why stars don't go flying off into space because there isn't' enough gravity to hold them in orbit around the milky way. I suggested there was a huge black hole in the center that provided the gravity. He said no way and there is no proof of it but it was an interesting thought. He asked me if I could prove it. I said no. It's just a thought. I told him that he asked for a solution to the puzzle and I provided it, proven or not.

Low and behold, it has be shown that this is the case for our galaxy and many others.

I compare your denials on the thread to my professors. Time will tell and I will surely tell you, I told you so.

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Nope. The whole "consciousness creates reality" thing is a misreading of quantum theory. It is not a conscious observer who causes "possibilities to be fixed", it's measurement. There is simply no evidence to support what you're saying.

There is evidence. It's the act of observing that causes the collapse. If it's not observed, the wave function doesn't collapse. If it is just the interaction without human observation, or measuring of the particle that causes the collapse, then all particles would already be collapsed because these particles are always interacting with other matter yet they remain in superposition until the human interacts with (observes) the particle. This indicates that human thought is involved in the collapse.

Edited by geonerd
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It is. It's like they said in the article. Time cannot exist separately from space, that's why we call it a timespace continuum or just timespace. Sufficient amount of gravity can bend timespace, to a point where time flows have been altered. Theoretical framework for timespace travel ? Perphaps but only one-way.

Time could be considered separated from space in the quantum world. Not really a separation but a disconnection. There most likely is a 2nd dimension of time in the quantum world. In the second dimension of time, all possibilities exist, not just the one possibility that is fixed in our macro world reality.

If you want to go back in time, shrink yourself down 10^20 times and you could probably travel anywhere in the universe in an instant and be in multiple places at once like an electron. This is why things appear to be quantum entangled to us in the macro world. This is why the electrons appear to pop in and out of existence. They really don't, they just move from our fixed reality into another position on the 2nd dimension of time axis. We can not see other positions on this axis. Our senses don't allow that. This could explain many spooky actions, Ghosts, NDEs, precognition, entanglement, and a lot more. Watch this crude video.

I think this could be the key to quantum gravity meshing with General Relativity.

Edited by geonerd
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There is evidence. It's the act of observing that causes the collapse. If it's not observed, the wave function doesn't collapse. If it is just the interaction without human observation, or measuring of the particle that causes the collapse, then all particles would already be collapsed because these particles are always interacting with other matter yet they remain in superposition until the human interacts with (observes) the particle. This indicates that human thought is involved in the collapse.

If eyes collapsed wave-functions then no one would ever have observed an interference pattern now would they?

Eyes can't detect (measure) single photons.

Inside your brain you have neurons that fire off a single electron so quantum effects will exist there but there hasn't been much research into this.

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Time could be considered separated from space in the quantum world. Not really a separation but a disconnection. There most likely is a 2nd dimension of time in the quantum world. In the second dimension of time, all possibilities exist, not just the one possibility that is fixed in our macro world reality.

If you want to go back in time, shrink yourself down 10^20 times and you could probably travel anywhere in the universe in an instant and be in multiple places at once like an electron. This is why things appear to be quantum entangled to us in the macro world. This is why the electrons appear to pop in and out of existence. They really don't, they just move from our fixed reality into another position on the 2nd dimension of time axis. We can not see other positions on this axis. Our senses don't allow that. This could explain many spooky actions, Ghosts, NDEs, precognition, entanglement, and a lot more. Watch this crude video.

I think this could be the key to quantum gravity meshing with General Relativity.

A mind with no thoughts is non-duality

A mind with thoughts is duality

The reason being is it takes an 'I' to have a thought and the 'I' is separate from oneness.

Collapse from non-duality into duality creates the foundations for the universe you think is real.

The reason being is an 'I' has a relative location which creates space.

The thoughts of the 'I' have a before, now and after creating time.

To exist the 'I' must be made of something as all things that exist are made of something. This creates matter.

Your further thoughts have created 100s of states of duality - for there to be love there is hate, for there to confidence there is lack of confidence, etc, etc

Your thoughts are the foundations of your reality.

Dimensions don't exist there are a way of framing the states of duality you brought into existence. You're basically trying to fit them into a vessel and measure how many axis they collectively have.

An alien with thoughts totally incomprehensible to humans will think they partially or totally live in a different universe to us.

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There is evidence. It's the act of observing that causes the collapse. If it's not observed, the wave function doesn't collapse. If it is just the interaction without human observation, or measuring of the particle that causes the collapse, then all particles would already be collapsed because these particles are always interacting with other matter yet they remain in superposition until the human interacts with (observes) the particle. This indicates that human thought is involved in the collapse.

Wrong. It's measurement that causes the collapse, not human thought. Trust me, this is a completely faulty reading of the science, perpetuated by the likes of Chopra etc.

A robot could do the experiment and the results would be the same. It is nothing to do with "human thought".

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Although the study is well executed, and the conclusion well considered, I find myself having to disagree with that conclusion.

Gravity is a secondary phenomenon of mass (matter) and so, if I was to draw a conclusion from the data the study relies on I would conclude that the direction of the arrow of time depends on the existence of a material universe - which seems to be a truism - not gravity specifically. From this, I would conclude that time can only ever 'flow' in one direction - because in a nonmaterial universe there is nothing which the action of time can alter to determine which 'direction' time flows.

Gravity, through the application of acceleration upon an object, might appear to alter the rate of the passage of time, but I do not see gravity as being responsible for the direction in which time flows.

Emma,

Wrong. It's measurement that causes the collapse, not human thought. Trust me, this is a completely faulty reading of the science, perpetuated by the likes of Chopra etc.

A robot could do the experiment and the results would be the same. It is nothing to do with "human thought".

While I agree that consciousness has nothing to do with the existence of things (except be conscious of them), I am of the opinion that the wavefunction of a quantum object is merely an abstract, mathematical representation of it. It does not represent the actual state of the object before measurement - but only indicates the uncertainty of the state of the object before measurement.

Therefore there is nothing to 'collapse'. Measurement does not collapse the wavefunction, only removes the uncertainty from the object's state.

However, I accept there are different interpretations of the nature of a wavefunction and any of them might be valid (including the interpretation you state), so I can't suggest what you state is wrong - only that I respectfully disagree with it.

Edited by Leonardo
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If you are right, then what causes precognitive abilities?

http://www.popsci.co...perceive-future

Love the way you drop that in as if they're fully proven to exist. The scientific community at large has massive issues with the experiments done. Simply put (and this seems to be a reoccurring theme in this area of science) - they were sloppy.

What about NDE experiences.

http://www.cnn.com/2...th-experiences/

What on earth does that have to do with he subject matter?

What about what Hameroff's work concludes with microtubules at the Center for Consciousness Studies and University of AZ. He in not a quack. He is an expert in consciousness.

Yes he is (a quack that is, not an expert). He's been peddling the "quantum conciousness" nonsense since the 80s, without much to back it up with. Again, he's not taken very seriously.

35 years ago I got into a debate with my physics teacher about why stars don't go flying off into space because there isn't' enough gravity to hold them in orbit around the milky way. I suggested there was a huge black hole in the center that provided the gravity. He said no way and there is no proof of it but it was an interesting thought. He asked me if I could prove it. I said no. It's just a thought. I told him that he asked for a solution to the puzzle and I provided it, proven or not.

So, because you had a hunch about black holes, that makes you an expert in everything else does it?

Remarkable.

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While I agree that consciousness has nothing to do with the existence of things, I am of the opinion that the wavefunction of a quantum object is merely an abstract, mathematical representation of it. It does not represent what the object actually is before measurement - but only indicates the uncertainty of the state of the object before measurement.

Yeah I completely agree with this, and my argument wasn't really about the nature of the collapse (I don't know nearly enough about it), more what causes it.

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Yes he is (a quack that is, not an expert). He's been peddling the "quantum conciousness" nonsense since the 80s, without much to back it up with. Again, he's not taken very seriously.

I think you are being a bit to harsh on Hameroff. His ideas are definitely fringe, and he certainly is not an expert in quantum mechanics (which, I would argue, is more important for his theories than conciousness), but he has been refining his argument and proposing experiments in which it would be possible to refute his postulates.

So, because you had a hunch about black holes, that makes you an expert in everything else does it?

Remarkable.

What is even more remarkable, is that geonerd had this insightful hunch a full five years after the super-massive black hole at the centre of the galaxy had been discovered.

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Wrong. It's measurement that causes the collapse, not human thought. Trust me, this is a completely faulty reading of the science, perpetuated by the likes of Chopra etc.

A robot could do the experiment and the results would be the same. It is nothing to do with "human thought".

When you measure a probability its destroyed leaving one of its outcomes.

The reason being is information was gained.

A thermometer (if sensitive enough) will collapse the wave-function (probability equation) of an electron.

The world to the individual doesn't usually behave quantum mechanically because of the vast amount of information reaching them. We, unintentionally, are like a measuring device. A vast number of atomic particles reach us every second destroying the probabilities of the things they came from.

Single atoms normally behave quantum mechanically because without a specialist detector its virtually impossible to gain any information on them (intentionally or unintentionally) with them being so small. So they usually spend their lives behaving as a probability (wave-function).

Edited by RabidMongoose
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Love the way you drop that in as if they're fully proven to exist. The scientific community at large has massive issues with the experiments done. Simply put (and this seems to be a reoccurring theme in this area of science) - they were sloppy.

What on earth does that have to do with he subject matter?

Yes he is (a quack that is, not an expert). He's been peddling the "quantum conciousness" nonsense since the 80s, without much to back it up with. Again, he's not taken very seriously.

So, because you had a hunch about black holes, that makes you an expert in everything else does it?

Remarkable.

Nothing is fully proven. In fact, there is no proof that you exist.

NDEs show that the mind (consciousness) and the brain are independent and that the mind does have something to do with it.

Hameroff isn't a quack, but you are entitled to your opinion and thanks for sharing.

Never said I was an expert, but thanks for thinking so. I guess my point wasn't comprehended. The point is that what we think is impossible and wrong today can be thought to be right tomorrow.

Is it remarkable you missed that, or not?

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I think you are being a bit to harsh on Hameroff. His ideas are definitely fringe, and he certainly is not an expert in quantum mechanics (which, I would argue, is more important for his theories than conciousness), but he has been refining his argument and proposing experiments in which it would be possible to refute his postulates.

What is even more remarkable, is that geonerd had this insightful hunch a full five years after the super-massive black hole at the centre of the galaxy had been discovered.

If thats the case, it is news to me because five years before that I was in high school and didn't know what a black hole was. PCs didn't exist. MS Dos wasn't even available yet. I was frying chicken and cooking hamburgers to earn money to chase girls. I hope you understand the point I was trying to make.

Edited by geonerd
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If thats the case, it is news to me because five years before that I was in high school and didn't know what a black hole was. PCs didn't exist. MS Dos wasn't even available yet. I was frying chicken and cooking hamburgers to earn money to chase girls. I hope you understand the point I was trying to make.

Yes, I think you were trying to demonstrate how your intuitively found a solution to a problem whose answer you were unaware of.

And I am trying to demonstrate how little that anecdote means; since none of us have any way of knowing whether or not your story is true, and furthermore the problem has a well-known solution - even back in 1979.

I do not mean to impugn your character, but your anecdote adds absolutely no support to the arguments you are trying to present here.

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