How conscious are you in your dreams?

[8th_wall]

(Introduction into why I'm writing this thread, its quite long so if you don't want to read just go down a bit and find out the actual point I'm trying to make)

Usually after waking up from a dream the memory of it would be quite vivid and it would seem fairly real. However after some time elapses and a person becomes more awake the dream seems to fade and become more surreal. A person's thought process seems to be completely alternated throughout sleep, what's strange is even though you might be thinking of something incredibly strange and illogical it makes sense at the time of the dream. If you're awake and you see a giant pink monkey walking down the road you're brain would let you know that something isn't right however this doesn't seem to occur in dreams. For the most part a person doesn't remember these strange thoughts because they don't really seem to have any logical link to them. Dreams that you remember have some sort of flow associated with them that you can follow however it seems that the deeper you fall into sleep the more random and strange things become and the less memory you have.

I tried something awhile ago because I noticed something strange while waking up from almost falling asleep. I had a thought that was completely illogical, it made sense to me at the time I had it and as I became more awake/aware of my surroundings the thought disappeared. The next time it happened something kicked in and I bent all the will I could muster to retain what I was thinking of. Most of it slipped away but I got something along the lines of "A box of weet-bix on the top shelf of the universe."

Another time I found myself in a lucid dream. (aware that you are in a dream) I've had a few but decided to actually test how real it actually seemed since dreams seem so hazy when you look back at them. Looking back now it seems hazy and dreamlike. Anyways I'm not entirely certain what triggered the lucid dream but I became aware I was dreaming in my math C class. I looked around and promptly decided to check out reality outside my classroom. I remember walking along, mentally noting down that everything seemed incredibly real and was surprised to feel my swinging arm brush someone as it came swinging back. I didn't even feel aware of the person until my hand brushed them.

(Point I'm making)

Anyway the point I'm making is that at the time something occurs no matter how it happens will seem very real as long as a person has some kind of cognitive awareness of self being. When viewed from a different mental position or state the other mental position or state seems to be surreal and incomplete. For example what's the point of assuming you're right about something if you're just going to assure yourself you were wrong or ill informed at a later point of view? This process seems to constantly repeat itself throughout people's lives and throughout history. That's just a small example however the biggest question I have is that how can we assume that we're perfectly aware of our state of being right now?

If we're only operating within this small area of consciousness within our brains and only really are now coming somewhere developing further via improved communications instead of a single individual then what is the tip of the ice berg? Are there realms of understanding that would make our current society comparable to that of the neolithic revolution? (Human's advancing from small hunter gatherer groups to an agricultural society.) What's amazing is that since the neolithic revolution probably prior to it (my history on the evolution of the human race is shoddy) the human brain hasn't changed. You could take a baby born in that era stick him in today's society and he'd function the same as everyone else after growing up.

If our ability to understand/reason or to be aware is simply based on our knowledge system then how can we assume we're able to understand/reason or to be aware if our knowledge system is supposed to be basically nothing? Nowadays every decade we prove that what we knew the previous decade wasn't really so much after all and we're only now becoming more aware of what's going really going on. *rolls eyes*

(Brief apology for the random nature of the thread, its been awhile since I've written something up so I'm out of practice, also it seems I have a hard time focusing my thoughts.)

[Voyager10]

(Introduction into why I'm writing this thread, its quite long so if you don't want to read just go down a bit and find out the actual point I'm trying to make)

Usually after waking up from a dream the memory of it would be quite vivid and it would seem fairly real. However after some time elapses and a person becomes more awake the dream seems to fade and become more surreal. A person's thought process seems to be completely alternated throughout sleep, what's strange is even though you might be thinking of something incredibly strange and illogical it makes sense at the time of the dream. If you're awake and you see a giant pink monkey walking down the road you're brain would let you know that something isn't right however this doesn't seem to occur in dreams.

I know what you're saying. I've had dreams that seem epically long, but then wake to realize I've only been asleep for 15 minutes.

For the most part a person doesn't remember these strange thoughts because they don't really seem to have any logical link to them. Dreams that you remember have some sort of flow associated with them that you can follow however it seems that the deeper you fall into sleep the more random and strange things become and the less memory you have.

I've found that to be true also. What helps me is to write the dream down sort of in reverse. I write down the last image in my head before I woke up, and then work backwards and I can remember it again.

I didn't really understand this part:

If we're only operating within this small area of consciousness within our brains and only really are now coming somewhere developing further via improved communications instead of a single individual then what is the tip of the ice berg? Are there realms of understanding that would make our current society comparable to that of the neolithic revolution?

When you say "realms of understanding", do you mean in terms of what the brain is physically capable of, or in terms of how the brain's ability is applied? Or do you just mean knowledge per se?

Edited February 12, 2009 by Voyager10

[8th_wall]

When you say "realms of understanding", do you mean in terms of what the brain is physically capable of, or in terms of how the brain's ability is applied? Or do you just mean knowledge per se?

The brain's physical capability to understand and be aware seems to far out weigh what we give it credit for when we're only looking at it from the point of view of being conscious within this time era. In other words even though as we go down history we seem to be developing a more complex method by which to be aware or in touch with reality the brain is still staying the same. In which case I guess I mean knowledge.

[D1CKY D1AMOND]

I know what you're saying. I've had dreams that seem epically long, but then wake to realize I've only been asleep for 15 minutes.

Dreams distort your perception of time and space.

On many occasions helping in studies people often wake up and say "wow that dream seemed like I lived a whole day" or say "It felt instantaneous". Doesn't mean they were any shorter or longer it just means that the dream heavily skewed your perception.

The brain's physical capability to understand and be aware seems to far out weigh what we give it credit for when we're only looking at it from the point of view of being conscious within this time era. In other words even though as we go down history we seem to be developing a more complex method by which to be aware or in touch with reality the brain is still staying the same. In which case I guess I mean knowledge.

The brain is fascinating and still quite unknown. We aren't sure exactly why it does some of the things it does at all or how, it's a lot of guess work.

What we do know however is that the brain secretes a drug called DMT a well known hallucinogenic. I along with about 90% of my peers believe that this is the driving force behind the visual part of our dreams.

[Set the Fallen]

(Introduction into why I'm writing this thread, its quite long so if you don't want to read just go down a bit and find out the actual point I'm trying to make)

Usually after waking up from a dream the memory of it would be quite vivid and it would seem fairly real. However after some time elapses and a person becomes more awake the dream seems to fade and become more surreal. A person's thought process seems to be completely alternated throughout sleep, what's strange is even though you might be thinking of something incredibly strange and illogical it makes sense at the time of the dream. If you're awake and you see a giant pink monkey walking down the road you're brain would let you know that something isn't right however this doesn't seem to occur in dreams. For the most part a person doesn't remember these strange thoughts because they don't really seem to have any logical link to them. Dreams that you remember have some sort of flow associated with them that you can follow however it seems that the deeper you fall into sleep the more random and strange things become and the less memory you have.

I tried something awhile ago because I noticed something strange while waking up from almost falling asleep. I had a thought that was completely illogical, it made sense to me at the time I had it and as I became more awake/aware of my surroundings the thought disappeared. The next time it happened something kicked in and I bent all the will I could muster to retain what I was thinking of. Most of it slipped away but I got something along the lines of "A box of weet-bix on the top shelf of the universe."

Another time I found myself in a lucid dream. (aware that you are in a dream) I've had a few but decided to actually test how real it actually seemed since dreams seem so hazy when you look back at them. Looking back now it seems hazy and dreamlike. Anyways I'm not entirely certain what triggered the lucid dream but I became aware I was dreaming in my math C class. I looked around and promptly decided to check out reality outside my classroom. I remember walking along, mentally noting down that everything seemed incredibly real and was surprised to feel my swinging arm brush someone as it came swinging back. I didn't even feel aware of the person until my hand brushed them.

(Point I'm making)

Anyway the point I'm making is that at the time something occurs no matter how it happens will seem very real as long as a person has some kind of cognitive awareness of self being. When viewed from a different mental position or state the other mental position or state seems to be surreal and incomplete. For example what's the point of assuming you're right about something if you're just going to assure yourself you were wrong or ill informed at a later point of view? This process seems to constantly repeat itself throughout people's lives and throughout history. That's just a small example however the biggest question I have is that how can we assume that we're perfectly aware of our state of being right now?

If we're only operating within this small area of consciousness within our brains and only really are now coming somewhere developing further via improved communications instead of a single individual then what is the tip of the ice berg? Are there realms of understanding that would make our current society comparable to that of the neolithic revolution? (Human's advancing from small hunter gatherer groups to an agricultural society.) What's amazing is that since the neolithic revolution probably prior to it (my history on the evolution of the human race is shoddy) the human brain hasn't changed. You could take a baby born in that era stick him in today's society and he'd function the same as everyone else after growing up.

If our ability to understand/reason or to be aware is simply based on our knowledge system then how can we assume we're able to understand/reason or to be aware if our knowledge system is supposed to be basically nothing? Nowadays every decade we prove that what we knew the previous decade wasn't really so much after all and we're only now becoming more aware of what's going really going on. *rolls eyes*

(Brief apology for the random nature of the thread, its been awhile since I've written something up so I'm out of practice, also it seems I have a hard time focusing my thoughts.)

I think I understand you.

Though... actually I never have had a dream I am not aware of (so to say). *not going to go in detail about that*

Anyways, I find it quite intriguing. My thoughts find it simple to understand you and I feel this interest wishing to talk about it, though I don't really know anything. *sight*

Well... good topic.

[Voyager10]

I think I understand you.

Though... actually I never have had a dream I am not aware of (so to say). *not going to go in detail about that*

Anyways, I find it quite intriguing. My thoughts find it simple to understand you and I feel this interest wishing to talk about it, though I don't really know anything. *sight*

Well... good topic.

You're aware that you're dreaming? I won't ask for details, that's interesting though. I had a lucid dream once. It was bizarre.

[Set the Fallen]

You're aware that you're dreaming? I won't ask for details, that's interesting though. I had a lucid dream once. It was bizarre.

Yah I'm aware.

Oh, lucid dreams are nice things to have. (specialy when you are aware and can use it to create a pleasent dream efect)

[D1CKY D1AMOND]

You're aware that you're dreaming? I won't ask for details, that's interesting though. I had a lucid dream once. It was bizarre.

Lucid dreaming has been around for ages.

Of all the metaphysical claims people have made this one is in fact scientifically verified. What I don't believe is that people can do this every time they go unconscious. I believe also that some people are simply incapable of this task for example people who have experienced traumatic events like war vets who have reoccurring 'nightmares' etc.

[8th_wall]

I've lately had a growing feeling that the way our minds behave when we're asleep is an interesting way to attempt to self-explore your perceptions on reality and how you behave within it and why.

[Mr Walker]

You raise many excellent isf somewhat different questions. My understanding is that neurologically the memory of a dream is exactly the same as the memory of a real event(as long as yo consciously recall and chose to remember the dream) So i can remember dreams in as much detail and as accurately from 50 years ago as i can real events. Sometimes more so becuase my lucid dreams were more real alive and vivid than the munane real world of a young person(who would ever forget flying a dragon or a magic carpet, or commanding a personal guard of trained centurion rabbits in full gladitorial armor.) I can detail to you today their armor, better than i could the clothes i wore myself in real life 50 years ago.

Second ly both real life and the world of controlled lucid draaming can be distinguished by applying the reality test(this is more difficualt for a child who has not full rrecognised the real limitations of real life than for an older person who has.)

If you are not sure if you are dreaming (or awake) then try to walk through a wall. If the molecules of your body meld with those of the wall and you pass through it(albeit with some conscious effort and a moment of panic when youreyes enter the wall and all goes dark) then you are dreaming. If you bounce right off, you are awake. If you can leap from the ground into the air, and fly around the world, you are dreaming. If you come back to earth , awake. Testing this by jumping from a building (even a single story one)is not recommended. If you must , do as i did, and use your brother as a guinea pig, and provide him with a parachute(It wont help, but it is a nice gesture)

If the beautiful woman you approach wants to jump into bed with you, you are probably dreaming(other people's personal realities may of course differ from mine, but even in the swinging 60s this rarely happened to me in the real /mundane world)

If you do this checking regularly, awake and dreaming, you enhance your conscious/unconscious awareness of your mental state. it helps you develop the ability to lucid drea as well as providing a reality check

In true lucid dreaming the quality of a dream may be as perfect as that of real life. My dreams encompass; taste, smell and all normal sensations and yet it is perfectly possible( in fact inescapable as long as you are trulylucid) to be aware that the whole expereince is a dream of which you are thecreator master and controller)

This works the other way too. I have had many expereinces which I think others are sure must be delusions or hallucinations. However apart from physical evidence that they are not, the reality check and the conscious awareness and control of ones subconscious by ones conscious mind, which is required for controlled lucid dreaming, helps me quite clearly be aware that these experiences are external ie part of the objective mundane reality around me rather than internal subjective experiences. Unlike many people, i have had a lifetime of differentiating between the two states and am conscious of the obvious and subtle differences/ indicators which separate the two states.

Even when a young child, while the quality of the dreamscapes was as real and vivid as that of reality, i was always able to distingish between the two states. That is partly why i was able to consciously manipulate the dreamscapes (you cannot change the real world by wishful thinking, or the power of the mind, but dreamscapes are totally amenable to conscious will.) If you are constantly trying to change your environment by the power of your mind, you will always be aware which is objective and which subjective by how successful you are.

Ps i have had independently confirmed that while a dream may be short it is possible through controlled lucid dreaming to sustain consciously a dreamscape and adventure for many hours. My longest verified dream state was over 6 hours, in which i flew right around the world at approx 38 degrees south latitude. But thats another story.

It is also possible to leave a dreamscape, wake up, have a drink , go to the loo, go back to sleep, and take up the dream where you left off, once you have the ability to consciously control your dreamscapes. You can even tell the other characters in your dream, where you are going, and that you will be back with them shortly. Absolutely anything is possible, once you can meld that conscious /subconscious awareness.

[Mr Walker]

Lucid dreaming has been around for ages.

Of all the metaphysical claims people have made this one is in fact scientifically verified. What I don't believe is that people can do this every time they go unconscious. I believe also that some people are simply incapable of this task for example people who have experienced traumatic events like war vets who have reoccurring 'nightmares' etc.

Dont mean to pick another fight with you decepticon but i dreamed controlled lucid dreams every night for more than 20 years. ive lost the knack a bit as the real world became more important as an adult in my life, but i am consciosly relearning and applying the skills and techniques i used in childhood to prepare my self for some good times in my old age.

As a child i lived everynight in self created dreamscapes.The nature of these changed (with an interesting concrete/symbolic break ) between childhood and adolescence and became less regular as i took on adult responsibilities. I would ceate miniseries, with me as captain kirk or robinhood/ ivanhoe etc, where i created the characters and settings, then let the drama/story line unfold differently each night, but it was the total dreamscapes /pocket universes which i inhabited most times.

Each was entered through a symbolic portal or gateway which represented the transition from conscious to subconscious reality Each had a specific environment and types of beings inhabiting it, but i had to consciously create the scenarios in these dramscapes every night ratherthan let them unfold. I spent quite a bit of my conscious/real time plotting characters, developing scenarios and trying to create realistic environmentseg at what altitude does a snow line emerge and how high can will power propel a flying body, When you are travelling through solid rock deep underground what abilty can you realistically give yourself to know the direction you are travelling in (perhaps something like a homing pigeons sense of the worlds magnetic currents)

Much later in my life i was able to use these skills to create whole modules and series of dungeons and dragon games with all the same characteristics of; plots, settings, possible probable alternative outcomes to different actions, and real logical environments.

Then i was basically able to involve a lot of real people in acting within "real" landscapes and environments, as i had done with the characters of my mind during my childhood and adolescence. They worked very effectively thanks largely i believe, to my "training" in creating dreamscapes.

It was probably the second most creative and fun time of my life, and only ended when computerised versions made the dice and paper versions redundant.

[eight bits]

Mr Walker! Always glad when you drop in on the dream threads.

I fear that the "Am I dreaming?" problem only has personal solutions. For me, a big one is what I am doing now, reading and writing bulk text. I can't do it in dreams. Little bits of text crop up into my dreams now and then, and the other night, I dreamt about being unable to write more than a few words at a time.

I was trying to compose an automobile accident report. I needed half-a-dozen false starts to get my own name written out. The other driver lost patience, and said that that was enough for her. She took the sheet of paper away from me. Cheeky. The accident was clearly her fault .

But I also know that other people either can read and write in their dreams, or maybe don't do it so much in waking life to notice its absence from their dreams. So, my "reality check" wouldn't work for their reality check.

It is also possible to leave a dreamscape, wake up, have a drink , go to the loo, go back to sleep, and take up the dream where you left off, once you have the ability to consciously control your dreamscapes.

Funny. That was more-or-less the protocol by which the reality of lucid dreaming and that it could be learned were established experimentally.

Which, of course, would not be a problem for you .

I've lately had a growing feeling that the way our minds behave when we're asleep is an interesting way to attempt to self-explore your perceptions on reality and how you behave within it and why.

Yes. And when I'm awake, too. Dealing with reality appears to be a full-time job. Maybe I'll get good at it one of these days.

[saturnine2008]

I recently started randomly remembering dreams I had when I was really young. LUCID dreams. I don't have them anymore, just the occasional episode of sleep paralysis with hallucinations lol I bought Robert Waggoners book, and I'm trying to get them back. Awesome stuff, does make you think about how real "reality" is lol Love it.

[8th_wall]

Thank-you kindly 8 bits and Mr Walker for your input. I would like to develop my lucid dreaming skill to a higher level because as you mentioned at the dreaming level your subconscious and conscious minds interact more readily and the subconscious has always been something I have found interesting to read about.

[eight bits]

Last night, I had a brief vignette which I would like to share, for what it says about the quality of my own consciousness during dreams. It maybe helps to explain why I am uninterested in lucid dreaming for myself as a personal practice. At the same time, of course, I encourage everybody to dive into the pool in whatever way interests them - and send postcards!

The imagery is very modest. I am situated near an airport a few years after World War II. An empty, propeller driven passenger plane maneuvers in for a landing. It has World Airways markings.

Visually, this homely little scene was beautiful. The plane's trajectory highlighted the three-dimesnionality of the vast dreamscape. As I watched the plane land, I was aware that I was looking at the beginnings of World Airways, and knew what lay in their future, that it was their future, and that both the landing and the airline's future were my past.

(World Airways came to be owned by Edward J. Daly. His exploit at the end of the Vietnamese-American war, evacuating World employees scattered throughout the country, in the face of hostile fire from elements of both armies, is one of the great stories of civilian heroism in war:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoA02PmueH4

)

What hits me about the vignette, now that I look back on it, is that I was in the moment, experiencing it and also aware of the larger meaning of what I was engaged with, all at once, and not disengaged from the now by knowing the future as if it were the past; that it was the past.

It is very difficult for one person to convey to another private interior experience. So, maybe that last paragraph doesn't grab anybody. In real life, if this happened (which it can't, since I don't remember the future - and this was not a premonition of their future, it was recall, with the unself-conscious certainty of a familiar fact, which it is), I would "shift focus" back and forth: look at the scene, turn inward to reflect, then turn outward again to look some more.

But in the dream it is all one seamless integration of the dreamer, the scene, and the past, present, and future of the larger world of which dreamer and dreamscape are both a part. There was no "focus;" and there was nothing except focus.

That is how gods think, and how the waking mortal who is typing this doesn't. Except he did, and he remembers that he did, and that there was nothing unusual about it when it happened to him.

It is not that I don't appreciate bunking with Keira Knightley, on my schedule rather than hers, but I would miss this other sort of thing, watching an airplane land as I cannot watch anything in real life.

[8th_wall]

I have noticed on a few occasions close to sleep when thoughts become disconnected that you'd have an entire concept where you knew the entire story, start to finish and it would seem that at the point you make the conscious link with it its just all there instantly and you're simply rolling along in it. Its a really strange feeling and as always the details start fading.

[chemical-licker]

i woke up in my dream once, wow, the freedom was just amazing, then i woke up physically, boy that hurt

[xris]

(Introduction into why I'm writing this thread, its quite long so if you don't want to read just go down a bit and find out the actual point I'm trying to make)

Usually after waking up from a dream the memory of it would be quite vivid and it would seem fairly real. However after some time elapses and a person becomes more awake the dream seems to fade and become more surreal. A person's thought process seems to be completely alternated throughout sleep, what's strange is even though you might be thinking of something incredibly strange and illogical it makes sense at the time of the dream. If you're awake and you see a giant pink monkey walking down the road you're brain would let you know that something isn't right however this doesn't seem to occur in dreams. For the most part a person doesn't remember these strange thoughts because they don't really seem to have any logical link to them. Dreams that you remember have some sort of flow associated with them that you can follow however it seems that the deeper you fall into sleep the more random and strange things become and the less memory you have.

I tried something awhile ago because I noticed something strange while waking up from almost falling asleep. I had a thought that was completely illogical, it made sense to me at the time I had it and as I became more awake/aware of my surroundings the thought disappeared. The next time it happened something kicked in and I bent all the will I could muster to retain what I was thinking of. Most of it slipped away but I got something along the lines of "A box of weet-bix on the top shelf of the universe."

Another time I found myself in a lucid dream. (aware that you are in a dream) I've had a few but decided to actually test how real it actually seemed since dreams seem so hazy when you look back at them. Looking back now it seems hazy and dreamlike. Anyways I'm not entirely certain what triggered the lucid dream but I became aware I was dreaming in my math C class. I looked around and promptly decided to check out reality outside my classroom. I remember walking along, mentally noting down that everything seemed incredibly real and was surprised to feel my swinging arm brush someone as it came swinging back. I didn't even feel aware of the person until my hand brushed them.

(Point I'm making)

Anyway the point I'm making is that at the time something occurs no matter how it happens will seem very real as long as a person has some kind of cognitive awareness of self being. When viewed from a different mental position or state the other mental position or state seems to be surreal and incomplete. For example what's the point of assuming you're right about something if you're just going to assure yourself you were wrong or ill informed at a later point of view? This process seems to constantly repeat itself throughout people's lives and throughout history. That's just a small example however the biggest question I have is that how can we assume that we're perfectly aware of our state of being right now?

If we're only operating within this small area of consciousness within our brains and only really are now coming somewhere developing further via improved communications instead of a single individual then what is the tip of the ice berg? Are there realms of understanding that would make our current society comparable to that of the neolithic revolution? (Human's advancing from small hunter gatherer groups to an agricultural society.) What's amazing is that since the neolithic revolution probably prior to it (my history on the evolution of the human race is shoddy) the human brain hasn't changed. You could take a baby born in that era stick him in today's society and he'd function the same as everyone else after growing up.

If our ability to understand/reason or to be aware is simply based on our knowledge system then how can we assume we're able to understand/reason or to be aware if our knowledge system is supposed to be basically nothing? Nowadays every decade we prove that what we knew the previous decade wasn't really so much after all and we're only now becoming more aware of what's going really going on. *rolls eyes*

(Brief apology for the random nature of the thread, its been awhile since I've written something up so I'm out of practice, also it seems I have a hard time focusing my thoughts.)

What a brilliant thread and no you have expressed yourself well ,a lot better than I. I have been debating lucid dreams and night terrors on another forum. Lucid dreams i find so amazing in how our brain can conjure up the strangest and random views. You can extend them by looking at your dream hands by the way. I dont like to water your thread down but the debate came about by the alien abduction dream phenomena. Got to go now but will return ..Thanks Xris.

[DfizzleShizzle]

I know what you're saying. I've had dreams that seem epically long, but then wake to realize I've only been asleep for 15 minutes.

Aww I hate those. Dreams that seem to last hours or days, then you wake up and its only been like 30 minutes. I have insomnia, so those dreams suck for me.

I had a dream I went through like a whole school year once. Then I woke up and it had only been like 2 hours.

[8th_wall]

What a brilliant thread and no you have expressed yourself well ,a lot better than I. I have been debating lucid dreams and night terrors on another forum. Lucid dreams i find so amazing in how our brain can conjure up the strangest and random views. You can extend them by looking at your dream hands by the way. I dont like to water your thread down but the debate came about by the alien abduction dream phenomena. Got to go now but will return ..Thanks Xris.

What exactly is a person's dream hands?

[Mr Walker]

8 bits your last post was fascinating . If you read this, why did this make you less enamoured of lucid dreaming?

While this is only one form of such dreams ,(And i had one very recently which i described in another thread, about going back to my local hospital,in the 1950's, consciously aware of my timeline and the hospitals past reality, deliberately to investigate how i would react, and what i would be tempted to do in such a situation) i couldnt quite follow what it was about this form of dream that concerned you.

Was it associated with the nature of the dream, your altered state of perception within the dream, and its connection to who you see yourself as, in reality?

[eight bits]

Hi, Mr Walker

I think different people have different "dreaming styles." For you, lucid dreams, with control, are the natural and regular thing, what you have been doing since childhood. For me, routine lucid dreams, or routine controlled dreams, would be a change.

So, maybe there is an element of status quo bias in my thinking... requiring a reason to change, but not requiring a reason to keep doing the usual thing. However, status quo bias is not necessarily a liability: I have learned to work with my dreaming style, just as you have learned how to get the most out of yours.

Your hospital dream is a good example. You are doing constructive work there, because you know what to do. I don't have any concern at all about the form of that dream for you. My concern is that I wouldn't do nearly as well, and yet might accomplish a similar amount of "dream work" by working within my own style instead.

Was it associated with the nature of the dream, your altered state of perception within the dream, and its connection to who you see yourself as, in reality?

I am very interested in symbolic thought, as comes up often in my posts. But I am a language-based thinker when I am awake. I think about how to say things as much as I think about the things themselves. The Buddha would curl his lip .

Meditation and dreams are, or so I believe, my connection to the well of symbolic thought. And immersion in symbolic thought is, for me, an attractive and welcome "altered state of perception."

I hope that somewhere in that is the answer to your question.

[Mr Walker]

Thank you . Yes I think i understand now(as well as one person using the limitations of language and symbology can understand another, using similar but not precisely the same forms of language and symbology.

What you say does make sense and explain your pov quite clearly.